Maybe really good AI isn't a realistic expectation in the GT series?

[Johnnypenso]

My recent foray into Grid Autosport has reminded me just how enjoyable offline racing could be given some enjoyable physics, good sounds and AI that behave in a near human fashion. But GAS has a couple of advantages in crafting good AI that GT doesn't and can't have. The physics model is quite simplified (albeit effective and it feels darn good through the wheel) and a relative dearth of differing cars.

I'm wondering if these advantages for GAS aren't bordering on near insurmountable obstacles in creating good AI for GT. Perhaps there are just too many cars, with too great a variance in handling and grip between the differing car models and too large variety of tracks to be able to create one AI model that works in every circumstance to produce good, close racing, that's scalable to different skill levels and tastes.

Do you think it's possible that GT's greatest strength, variety, is also responsible for it's great weakness, poor offline racing? Are we asking for too much from a $60 video game? For the more technically minded, is this a hurdle than can be overcome with such a wide variety of cars and tracks? Should we temper our expectations and perhaps hope for good AI only within a fixed class of car or one-make races?

 

[doblocruiser]

Maybe you are right but the big difference with Codies and PD is that Codies had great AI since TOCA on PSOne and PD had bad AI since Gran Turismo on PSOne. They both focus on something completely else. TOCA and GRID are focussing on a motorsport experience while Gran Turismo focusses on a "collecting cars" and "driving around" experience.

 

[mister dog]

I'll just confirm my "GT critic" role by saying that PD are just lazy again.
Standard cars prove it, The lack of sound improvements prove it, not bothering to update a 15 year old formula proves it, still no damage model proves it and yes; not updating the AI proves it also.

They just implemented chase the rabbit as a workaround, instead of making the effort to start from scratch with the AI.

 

[mr_serious]

My recent foray into Grid Autosport has reminded me just how enjoyable offline racing could be given some enjoyable physics, good sounds and AI that behave in a near human fashion. But GAS has a couple of advantages in crafting good AI that GT doesn't and can't have. The physics model is quite simplified (albeit effective and it feels darn good through the wheel) and a relative dearth of differing cars.

I'm wondering if these advantages for GAS aren't bordering on near insurmountable obstacles in creating good AI for GT. Perhaps there are just too many cars, with too great a variance in handling and grip between the differing car models and too large variety of tracks to be able to create one AI model that works in every circumstance to produce good, close racing, that's scalable to different skill levels and tastes.

Do you think it's possible that GT's greatest strength, variety, is also responsible for it's great weakness, poor offline racing? Are we asking for too much from a $60 video game? For the more technically minded, is this a hurdle than can be overcome with such a wide variety of cars and tracks? Should we temper our expectations and perhaps hope for good AI only within a fixed class of car or one-make races?

No I don't.

I think the problem is that someone (maybe Kaz himself?) wrote the original AI code, which was just about adequate for GT1 for which you had to use a digital controller.

Now as a software engineer myself I know it is possible to be incredibly proud of complex code you have designed and developed. I also know that it can be very hard, after spending some considerable time crafting that to let it go, or even think about the problem in a new and fresh way.

That code has been the basis for all the subsequent games, and despite being obviously woefully inadequate, especially as the hardware and control systems have improved, it has barely changed.

So either the guy who develops the AI is incapable of starting from scratch or he is in a position of authority which allows him to demand that code continue to be the basis of the new generations.

It is painfully obvious that standing starts & qualifying were dropped from the series because the AI can't cope. I also believe the Levelling (now the stars system) were also introduced to provide a constraint/reward system, because the AI cannot provide any decent competition.

Competition, challenges and rewards are the essential components of any game (and the basis of behavioural psychology)

In a racing game the challenge and reward should be provided by the actual racing - sadly PD are not capable of producing challenging racing.

Just my humble opinion of course

 

[Fat Tyre]

I'm with @mister dog on this one, I think they are just lazy. I'm not so sure up to what point we can call it A.I. either. To me races seem to be "scripted", this was more obvious in GT5 but I have seen it in GT6 as well, you restart a race and the A.I. guys will just do the same errors as in the previous race (same turn, lap, etc.) and yeah you also have the rubber band effect. Just horrible.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

The AI has come a LONG way in the GT series. I remember back in the older games you could park in the middle of the track, and even if it took an entire lap for the AI to come around, they would 100% run into you. They ran a racing line and did not move out of that line at all.

While it is not perfect in GT6 it has come a long way with many improvements. I have actually seen them fly off the track to avoid hitting me. The rubber band effect can be a bit frustrating for sure but its better than it used to be.

 

[mr_serious]

The AI has come a LONG way in the GT series. I remember back in the older games you could park in the middle of the track, and even if it took an entire lap for the AI to come around, they would 100% run into you. They ran a racing line and did not move out of that line at all.

While it is not perfect in GT6 it has come a long way with many improvements. I have actually seen them fly off the track to avoid hitting me. The rubber band effect can be a bit frustrating for sure but its better than it used to be.

But still worse than almost any racing game on any platform, in my opinion. Games I played on 486's (f1 GP, Indy Car) had better AI.

@Fat Tyre :awesome signature BTW

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

But still worse than almost any racing game on any platform, in my opinion. Games I played on 486's (f1 GP, Indy Car) had better AI.

I do agree with that for sure.

 

[Imari]

Do you think it's possible that GT's greatest strength, variety, is also responsible for it's great weakness, poor offline racing? Are we asking for too much from a $60 video game? For the more technically minded, is this a hurdle than can be overcome with such a wide variety of cars and tracks? Should we temper our expectations and perhaps hope for good AI only within a fixed class of car or one-make races?

If variety were to make it more complex to make competent AI, then there are ways that could be addressed.

(I'm not sold that variety necessarily does make it more complex, but I can see how it could, so for the sake of argument I'll take it that it does.)

There are a lot of aspects of car handling that aren't really perceptible unless you're actually driving yourself. If the player is watching the AI, can they tell that the car they're watching is a GTR, and not a boosted WRX hybrid with a GTR body on it?

Hybriding shows the way.

Get a variety of a hundred or so cars that cover the range of drivetypes and power and weight. Tune the AI for each of those hundred cars, get them really good. Then assign each body shell in the game to one of those hundred chassis, whichever matches the closest.

Bingo bango, a large variation in visual car opponents without the huge amount of work needed to tune each one by hand. Without telemetry, I seriously doubt that anyone could ever be sure that that was what had been done, if you were clever about choosing your hundred chassis. Even with telemetry, it would be pretty tough and take some seriously anal investigation.

It's not perfect and it's seriously cheaty, but that's half the point of game development. If 99% of people can't tell the difference and are having a good time, I'd say that's great success.

I think there's no reason why GT7 can't have good AI. I'm pretty sure GT6 could have great AI right now with a few tweaks to how it's set up, so there's no reason why GT7 can't.

The first thing they have to do away with is the player starting 30 seconds behind in a 3 lap race. It's impossible to have competitive AI in that situation if you want to give the player any chance of winning, no matter how awesome your AI code is.

 

[MustangManiac]

I don't see any reason that GT couldn't have good AI. The actual "mechanics" of maintaining a racing line, defensive driving or offensive driving (passing) doesn't change with the model of car you are driving.

 

[Mulan]

just make em brake later and drive the hole track and they may have a winner

 

[Tenacious D]

@Fat Tyre :awesome signature BTW

Yeah, it's totally accurate...

I have to repeat that I haven't seen any games which have A.I. to cheer about. Every game which supposedly has awesome A.I. basically has cruise missiles that to one extent or other won't ram you too often. Games which have more aggressive A.I. will crash you around more than the bots in GT5 and 6. So for me, the only argument that makes sense is that games have polite, boring bots, or crash happy bots, and then there's Gran Turismo.

GT6's bots have two sins: they creep around turns and often brake weirdly doing it, and other than rabbits, just won't race to their potential. If that was fixed, I'd rather race those bots than any others. And seeing as I keep coming back to GT6 from that other game, I still prefer its bots as they are.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yeah, it's totally accurate...

I have to repeat that I haven't seen any games which have A.I. to cheer about. Every game which supposedly has awesome A.I. basically has cruise missiles that to one extent or other won't ram you too often. Games which have more aggressive A.I. will crash you around more than the bots in GT5 and 6. So for me, the only argument that makes sense is that games have polite, boring bots, or crash happy bots, and then there's Gran Turismo.

GT6's bots have two sins: they creep around turns and often brake weirdly doing it, and other than rabbits, just won't race to their potential. If that was fixed, I'd rather race those bots than any others. And seeing as I keep coming back to GT6 from that other game, I still prefer its bots as they are.

The GT Grid Forums are alive with people who have praised the AI extensively. They aren't perfect but they do race and they are on pace, no matter what your pace is. Once you know which teams to look out for you can have fantastic racing, clean, and with little to no contact if you follow some basic racing principles.

I have yet to see a single person in there say they'd prefer the AI in the GT series.

 

[MustangManiac]

I agree with the great ai in Grid Motorsports. They aren't perfect (no game is) but they will race you and if you rough them up...they will remember you 👍

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I think it is realistic to expect good AI and GT7 will hopefully have considerable series high regarding AI. We know they are rebuilding AI and sound and for a while now and given PS4 architecture I think they will be able to achieve a good result. If small development team like Kunos Simulazioni can deliver a decent experience on PC then I don't see why PD won't be able to on PS4.

 

[mister dog]

We know they are rebuilding AI and sound and for a while now and given PS4 architecture I think they will be able to achieve a good result.

Actually we don't know they are rebuilding AI, Kaz only said "they are working on a new sound model which 'might'...", but nothing about the AI so far as i recall.

About the PS4's architecture; at least we can rule out the excuse of 'system hardware restrictions' or 'difficult programming' if they would fail to update sounds and AI in time for GT7.

 

[Zuku]

I'd rather deal with NFS A.I(Rubber-banding) then what we've had in GT5 and now GT6 and even GT4. At least only temporarily not as a permanent solution. People blasted me for this way back, but given the current state of A.I again at least you would have the fun put back into the game at least the racing part of it anyways.

 

[Tenacious D]

I have yet to see a single person in there say they'd prefer the AI in the GT series.

Well, now you have.

I suppose I should give a little book report in that section as it's rather OT, but after another ordeal today outside of Touring Cars, I'm growing quite disenchanted with GA. Especially from the bots you guys love so much.

 

[Aphelion]

good AI takes up quite allot of RAM, and with GT's RIDICULOUSLY good car models (premiums anyway), im just not sure how well even the PS4 will handle solid AI. the AI could use a tune up definitely, but really good AI just isn't a main focus for GT, and therefore i don't expect, or even need, good AI.

GT6's current AI aren't actually that bad. i mean they still drive by themselves don't they? a good way to look at the current AI is that they take a very 'I-could-overtake-you-but-i-dont-want-a-scratch-in-my-1-million-dollar-McLaren-thank-you' type approach. therefore if you take the same view you could actually find yourself having some fun, given you in a slower car than the opposition.

 

[Johnnypenso]

good AI takes up quite allot of RAM, and with GT's RIDICULOUSLY good car models (premiums anyway), im just not sure how well even the PS4 will handle solid AI. the AI could use a tune up definitely, but really good AI just isn't a main focus for GT, and therefore i don't expect, or even need, good AI.

GT6's current AI aren't actually that bad. i mean they still drive by themselves don't they? a good way to look at the current AI is that they take a very 'I-could-overtake-you-but-i-dont-want-a-scratch-in-my-1-million-dollar-McLaren-thank-you' type approach. therefore if you take the same view you could actually find yourself having some fun, given you in a slower car than the opposition.

Doesn't the PS4 have more than 30 times the ram as the PS3? Ram won't be the issue, it'll be a combination of complexity and the desire to make competitive AI to begin with.

 

[ShiftingGears]

GT6's current AI aren't actually that bad. i mean they still drive by themselves don't they?

Woah woah woah. Let's not set the bar too high here.

 

[mister dog]

I suppose I should give a little book report in that section as it's rather OT, but after another ordeal today outside of Touring Cars, I'm growing quite disenchanted with GA. Especially from the bots you guys love so much.

Sounds like either you're more into driving miss Daisy, or you need to up the AI difficulty level in GAS.

 

[Tenacious D]

No, actually I would have preferred it if Codies had accurately marketed GA as "GRID Autosport... and Demolition Derby."

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sounds like either you're more into driving miss Daisy, or you need to up the AI difficulty level in GAS.

If the game has GTX on the cover, in TenD's eyes all the faults are simply "quirks" that add to the "soul" of the game. In other games faults are always game breaking because well, they just don't have the same soul that GT has gosh darn it. I'd say the Driving Miss Daisy AI will get a warm approval from at least one participant in GT7

 

[AlexN8710]

No excuse for 'same old GT' AI with the power of ps4 available. Hands down. PD have proved in the past they can create cohesive, mind blowingly good, FINISHED games on release day. Everything up to GT4 proves this. I'll forgive GT5 because of the complexities of PS3, but with the more streamlined and powerful architecture of PS4, expectations are high and should be. PD set the bar high and should keep pushing.

It'll either come down to PD..

A) not hiring enough new people to meet deadlines
B) Being too scared to embrace change in fear of crossing the juggernaut they have created

 

[Imari]

good AI takes up quite allot of RAM, and with GT's RIDICULOUSLY good car models (premiums anyway), im just not sure how well even the PS4 will handle solid AI. the AI could use a tune up definitely, but really good AI just isn't a main focus for GT, and therefore i don't expect, or even need, good AI.

GT6's current AI aren't actually that bad. i mean they still drive by themselves don't they? a good way to look at the current AI is that they take a very 'I-could-overtake-you-but-i-dont-want-a-scratch-in-my-1-million-dollar-McLaren-thank-you' type approach. therefore if you take the same view you could actually find yourself having some fun, given you in a slower car than the opposition.

Does it? More than say, nice textures, or good sounds?

I'd have thought memory would be exactly what AI wouldn't take up. I'd expect the limiting factor to be processing power, because of the number of factors to be analysed and decisions to be made seems rather high.

If you have more knowledge of this sort of stuff, or something you could point me to to learn more then that would be cool, but otherwise I strongly suspect that RAM is not the problem as far as AI goes.

Sounds like either you're more into driving miss Daisy, or you need to up the AI difficulty level in GAS.

Don't pay any attention to him. He's physically incapable of loving anything that doesn't start with the words "Gran" and "Turismo".

 

[Fat Tyre]

But still worse than almost any racing game on any platform, in my opinion. Games I played on 486's (f1 GP, Indy Car) had better AI.

@Fat Tyre :awesome signature BTW

Thank you. BTW I agree with you, although I can't remember many games from the 486 era, Stunts had better A.I., maybe?

 

[Rhykus Finlay]

I may be biased but I liked the NASCAR A.I. from about 2007 or so, really fun to race against.

Anyway yeah I'm bored with the A.I., but at some point just think of them as roadblocks in a really big time trial and move on?

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I may be biased but I liked the NASCAR A.I. from about 2007 or so, really fun to race against.

I agree.
Hard to believe, but EA actually had the best AI in some of their Nascar games I've played against.
I especially liked the attitude meter, or whatever it was called.
If you roughed up another driver during the race, they would return the favor.
Some drivers would flat out wreck you, even for relatively minor transgressions against them.
Made for some interesting races, particularly on the short tracks.
A great tool to influence clean driving BTW.

Really good AI is certainly doable in GT7, but not likely to happen under the philosophy PD seems to have employed, on the last two installments.

 

[MustangManiac]

I agree.
Hard to believe, but EA actually had the best AI in some of their Nascar games I've played against.
I especially liked the attitude meter, or whatever it was called.
If you roughed up another driver during the race, they would return the favor.
Some drivers would flat out wreck you, even for relatively minor transgressions against them.
Made for some interesting races, particularly on the short tracks.
A great tool to influence clean driving BTW.

Really good AI is certainly doable in GT7, but not likely to happen under the philosophy PD seems to have employed, on the last two installments.

Grid Autosport has ai that will come back at you if you rough them up, there is even one team that will come after you anyway. It makes it fun to get a good pass on them and try to outrun them for the rest of the race! And that is on PS3, so there is certainly no excuse for PD not to have good ai in GT7 on PS4.