Melbourne Motor Show '08

[nd 4 holden spd]

Only a couple weeks until the 2008 Melbourne Motor Show, is anyone as excited as I am? Such big things planned on what people know nothing about. Everything from local manufacturers will be show stoppers! The new Ford Falcon will be on display, a mystery Holden concept which Bob Lutz is saying will knock everyone's socks off, some HSVs a said to be debuting, including rumours of an HSV Sportwagon, and a new HSV GTS-R! Care to speculate on anything in the wait? Maybe what this Holden concept will be?

 

[Jay]

No I am not looking forward to anything really, interested in this HSV GTS-R though.

a mystery Holden concept which Bob Lutz is saying will knock everyone's socks off,

I sure hope it is not some Holden version of the GMC Denali XT (Zeta based)

including rumours of an HSV Sportwagon

Thats pretty much just expected.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Yeah, I hope it isn't a Holden Denali Concept either, but he said it was to be sold in Australia, and would play a large role in GM's product. Perhaps an Alpha platform preview? Motor Magazine is hoping the GTS-R gets the LS9 V8 out of the ZR-1, good luck. Maybe the same V8 that's in the new CTS-V. (A detuned LS-9). And I don't think the Wagon is expected, well it is now, but HSV don't normally do wagons- let's see what they make of it.

 

[Jay]

but HSV don't normally do wagons- let's see what they make of it.

Yeah but this is a 'sports wagon', so I have pretty much been assuming HSV would do something with it. Even if it's just a way to promote the 'sports wagon'.


As for the GTS-R, I'm just interested in what plans they have for it (if any), I very highly doubt the LS9 would make it to Australian roads. I'm thinking if it make production it would be something around the 350kw range, maybe even the LS7, or possibly the Caddy LSA engine but with slightly less power.

 

[YSSMAN]

Perhaps an Alpha platform preview?

Seems like a reasonable guess. If it isn't a Crewman, I'm not sure what else it could be since we already know that the Monaro/GTO is apparently "dead" in the water...

Thing is, GM says they haven't laid out any steel for the Alpha design yet. But the first products are due 2011 or so. Hmmmm... May want to get on that...

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Yeah but this is a 'sports wagon', so I have pretty much been assuming HSV would do something with it. Even if it's just a way to promote the 'sports wagon'.


As for the GTS-R, I'm just interested in what plans they have for it (if any), I very highly doubt the LS9 would make it to Australian roads. I'm thinking if it make production it would be something around the 350kw range, maybe even the LS7, or possibly the Caddy LSA engine but with slightly less power.

There is a far higher chance the LSA will be the engine than an LS7, as it would be cheaper to make due to the need for modifications and crash testing with an LS7. That's if the car even exists.

 

[GT Pro]

I missed last year's motor show so this one should be refreshing- Alas, my standard digital camera just doesn't cut it when it comes to taking motor show/expo pictures.

I be dominating the GT5 Prologue stand.

 

[Turbo Lag]

I missed last year's motor show so this one should be refreshing- Alas, my standard digital camera just doesn't cut it when it comes to taking motor show/expo pictures.

I be dominating the GT5 Prologue stand.

Hey I nearly owned all 2 years ago on the GT4 Rally All the adults sucked btw. I was hoping to have a good look at everything this year, but I have to go with "school friends" who know nothing about cars. This should be interesting.

 

[GT Pro]

Hey I nearly owned all 2 years ago on the GT4 Rally All the adults sucked btw. I was hoping to have a good look at everything this year, but I have to go with "school friends" who know nothing about cars. This should be interesting.

Lucky you, I'm at a relatively new school where practically no-one knows anything about cars. Not only that, but it will be hard to find a day that my mum or dad could take me up there.

 

[Turbo Lag]

Lucky you, I'm at a relatively new school where practically no-one knows anything about cars. Not only that, but it will be hard to find a day that my mum or dad could take me up there.

No I wouldnt say lucky me lol. My dad gets really pissed off after about 2 hours of the show. So I never get a chance to look at anything properly. My school is full of try-hards who think they know alot about cars...well everything.

 

[Jay]

There is a far higher chance the LSA will be the engine than an LS7, as it would be cheaper to make due to the need for modifications and crash testing with an LS7.

Why would the LSA not require any of this?

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Why would the LSA not require any of this?

Well OK, it would sort of- HSV are meant to be using the LS3 as their standard engine really soon, and the LSA keeps the same dimensions and fits in the same because it's based off the LS3, so the LS7 would require extra as they're already going to be using LS3 anyway.

 

[Jay]

Well OK, it would sort of- HSV are meant to be using the LS3 as their standard engine really soon, and the LSA keeps the same dimensions and fits in the same because it's based off the LS3, so the LS7 would require extra as they're already going to be using LS3 anyway.

You do realise the LS3, LSA and LS7 are all Gen IV LS engines right? (aswell as L76 which SS's use), if a LS3 fits in, then a LS7 will slot in just the same.

Not to mention the external dimentions of Gen III LS engines (LS1, LS6) are pretty much the same as the Gen IV aswell. very little needs to be done to fit any of these engines in.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

You do realise the LS3, LSA and LS7 are all Gen IV LS engines right? (aswell as L76 which SS's use), if a LS3 fits in, then a LS7 will slot in just the same.

Not to mention the external dimentions of Gen III LS engines (LS1, LS6) are pretty much the same as the Gen IV aswell. very little needs to be done to fit any of these engines in.

The LS7 is different because of the dry sump system and it needs a diiferent setup as a result. If things are in different places they need to be tested- which costs money. It says all this in the current Motor Magazine. Might I add to anyone interested, the new Falcon is supposed to be unveiled this weekend, check this car site for news tomorrow at noon AEST.
www.caradvice.com.au

 

[Jay]

The LS7 is different because of the dry sump system and it needs a diiferent setup as a result. If things are in different places they need to be tested- which costs money.

Any new model of car takes testing, you think adding a Supercharged 550hp engine (LSA) doesn't take testing? That sort of power jump will take a fair bit of extra development. The LS7 dry sump system is quite compact and wont take much to work around, which anyway the LS9 also uses it and I expect the LSA to have the dry sump too.

*EDIT* Just noticed on wiki

It has been rumoured for several years now that Holden Special Vehicles will be using the LS7 in one of its vehicles. This has recently been confirmed, HSV will use its own version of the engine in its new VE GTS-R, still based on the Holden Commodore. The HSV-tuned engine will produce around 385 kW (516 hp).

not sure where they got this 'confirmed' info from?

 

[YSSMAN]

...which anyway the LS9 also uses it and I expect the LSA to have the dry sump too...

The LSA already made its debut in the Cadillac CTS-V with 550 BHP, and no, it goes about without the dry-sump system. As I recall the LSA also does without the lightweight titanium parts on the inside, shorter valve lift, uses a smaller (but similar) supercharger (also smaller intercooler), and consequently, uses less boost. Both the LSA and the LS9 are based on the L92 design, not the LS3, as it pre-dated both of them. But to be fair, you could say the LS3 just as easily. But, like you said, it being of the GENIV LS-series V8s, they're all pretty much the same overall.

So, yeah... LS4 (5.3L), LS1/LS6 (5.7L), L76/L98/LS2 (6.0L), L92/LS3 (6.2L), LSA/LS9 (6.2L S/C), LS7 (7.0L)... All of which share their designs with the LQ series V8s found in the North American trucks, however, they utilize iron blocks instead.

Given that the LSA has already been matched to the new twin-clutch M10-replacement and can also be matched to the 6L80E automatic, it would be pretty easy to assume that HSV would use it in their new sedans. It certainly will keep the guys in Detroit busy who build them by hand...

 

[Jay]

Hmm, Cadillac not 'racey' enough for dry sump?

Both the LSA and the LS9 are based on the L92 design, not the LS3, as it pre-dated both of them. But to be fair, you could say the LS3 just as easily.

Frankly, they all have the same basis.

Personally I'll take the LSX, good 'ol cast iron strength.

Given that the LSA has already been matched to the new twin-clutch M10-replacement and can also be matched to the 6L80E automatic, it would be pretty easy to assume that HSV would use it in their new sedans. It certainly will keep the guys in Detroit busy who build them by hand...

I personally couldn't care less about auto versions, you Americans can keep them.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

The LSA wouldn't need safety testing if it's the same pretty much as the standard engine- only performance and durability testing.

Edit: Agreed, I'll cling to the manual trannys until they become extinct.

 

[Jay]

The LSA wouldn't need safety testing if it's the same pretty much as the standard engine- only performance and durability testing.

Same with LS7, you know GM don't have to run a dry sump system, they could easily run it wet (which some LS7 owners have done themselves).

but anyway if I am aware, every new model needs saftey testing, even if the engines are of similar dimentions, much of the rest of the car will not be carbon copy HSV GTS's, so these tests will be done anyway. Addidng a small oil reservoir and a couple hoses is not a big issue.

 

[YSSMAN]

On the subject of manuals and the monster V8s:

As would I, but the fact that they're offering it in the CTS-V is a HUGE step forward. Some of the critics hit the car for not being "civil" enough by only offering a stick (only in America, folks...), so they're making an automatic optional to cater to the AMG crowd.

But nothing is ever sacred. I recall reading an article in Motor Trend not too long ago where they had a HSV Commodore adapted to fit in an LS7 and a 6L80E automatic. I'd be damned if it was a stupid idea, but it worked, and I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar happen in the US for the Pontiac G8 GXP. Probably. They still have to get around to making our Clubsport R8 equivalent (G8 GTP?) yet. Maybe. If they feel like it.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Was that CSV that made the LS7 GTS you're talking about. I almost forgot too, at the Show the Australian Sports car manufacturer known as Bolwell will be debutiing their new car. A mid-engined sports car powered by a Toyota V6, and light as a feather. I disagree with the "Toyota" part, very un-Australian, but still might be a cool car.

 

[GT Pro]

An LS7-powered HSV? That would be a dream come true. But even more so if this 'vehicle that will most likely blow everyone's socks off' is a concept for a new Monaro.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

An LS7-powered HSV? That would be a dream come true. But even more so if this 'vehicle that will most likely blow everyone's socks off' is a concept for a new Monaro.

It won't be a Monaro- or at least that's what the general consensus is. If there is a new GTS-R I wanna see a race between it and cars like the M3, M5, RS4, what else...... My point is it would kick butt.

 

[GT Pro]

It won't be a Monaro- or at least that's what the general consensus is. If there is a new GTS-R I wanna see a race between it and cars like the M3, M5, RS4, what else...... My point is it would kick butt.

Did the previous GTS-R (based on the Monaro shell) ever got sold? I remember briefly seeing photos of the 330-or-so KW monster a few years ago but haven't heard any information since.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Did the previous GTS-R (based on the Monaro shell) ever got sold? I remember briefly seeing photos of the 330-or-so KW monster a few years ago but haven't heard any information since.

Nope, purely a concept that one.

 

[Jay]

The biggest thing I hope for with upcoming Holdens..... is a weight loss program. Ford US have said that they have weight loss plans for the future, I just hope GM has the same. VE has just gone over the limit IMO, adding power is all nice, but losing weight would help much more.

 

[GT Pro]

The biggest thing I hope for with upcoming Holdens..... is a weight loss program. Ford US have said that they have weight loss plans for the future, I just hope GM has the same. VE has just gone over the limit IMO, adding power is all nice, but losing weight would help much more.

Agreed. The next major step in performance-vehicle development should be heavily focused on shedding weight. Not necessarily all the little 'luxuries', but there should be some serious research and development on the materials used in the car. Even if it means paying a bit more.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Then you guys must be really happy at the moment. The new Corvette ZR-1 isn't just a super car, it's a test bed. GM are using the ZR-1 to test the long term capabilities of carbon fibre for serious use in mass production vehicles. By the time they find out if it's feasible carbon fiber price will be expected to have dropped. Plus future Corvettes are set to get smaller, lighter, and less powerful while keeping the same power-to-weight ratio. As the Corvette is GM's halo car, this trend could continue right down the line.

 

[Jay]

Then you guys must be really happy at the moment. The new Corvette ZR-1 isn't just a super car, it's a test bed. GM are using the ZR-1 to test the long term capabilities of carbon fibre for serious use in mass production vehicles. By the time they find out if it's feasible carbon fiber price will be expected to have dropped. Plus future Corvettes are set to get smaller, lighter, and less powerful while keeping the same power-to-weight ratio. As the Corvette is GM's halo car, this trend could continue right down the line.

I personally am not a fan of carbon fibre, I think weight should be shed through smart engineering, thought its hard with all the new crash and emmisions laws that are always piled on. My main hope with carbon fibre mass production is the price drop, which has been well overdue.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Carbon fibre can be painted to look normal so what's the problem? If it were up to Holden I bet the Commdore would still weigh 1300-1500kg due to no need for safety things.