Menu and Presentation Considerations

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JohnBM01

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Time to get your creativity going again, GTP.

This time, I want to focus in on a part of the game that may not matter in some cases, but will be essential in rating a good game from a great game. And that is the presentation. I know I mentioned how incredible the presentation is in NCAA Football 2004. In that game, you are basically indulged in a college atmosphere. You know, you and your buddy watching your team play and play hard. I'll use Houston, Michigan, Notre Dame, Purdue, Ohio State, Kansas State, whatever college you want to represent. You have your team come out, fight song and all, and welcomed by the wonderful commentary of Brad Nessler, former Florida State University QB Kirk Herbstreit (if I'm not mistaken), and the colorful commentator Lee Corso. The menus are done in a nice fashion, while not snazzy. The only music in the game are either fight songs of different schools or other stuff college bands play. When you play a big game, you know that you're in for a treat. For example, there is the ever popular Ohio State and Michigan game in the Big Ten. USC and UCLA play in the PAC-10. And there is the Red River Shootout between Big XII schools Texas and Oklahoma.

In terms of Gran Turismo, how do you think the game should look and be presented? I'll start.

I'm playing Gran Turismo 2, alright? So, normally, when I want to go to the dealerships to look for a car, I have to know (especially in GT2) what city I need to be in to buy a car from a certain nationality. North City had British and German cars, East City had Japanese cars, West City had French and Italian Cars, and South City had American cars. When you go to a city, all you have to do is find a car maker and when you go to that dealer, you are presented with a small menu and a picture of one of their cars in action (like the Honda S2000 with the top down in the Honda category). If you went to Mazda, you'd normally see a showroom with the Mazda RX-8.

I'll start with presentations. First off, it would be very interesting if you could enter a big showroom, kind of like the atmosphere at an auto show (like Detroit, Geneva, or even Tokyo). So I'm saying that if you went to Honda, you should see a showroom full of Honda cars. If you wanted to find a certain car in a certain section, you can use your left analog stick or your D-pad as a cursor. I'm taking this from "R-Type Final." So anyhow, you see these top-down views of all the different cars available from the manufacturer (in this case, Honda). When you roll the cursor over a specific car, a window opens and tells you what car you just rolled the cursor over. So if you found a Civic Type-R, the Window would say something like:

-----
Car Manufacturer: Honda
-----
Car: Civic Type-R
Price: 19,980 Cr
-----
Year: 1998
Horsepower: 182
Aspiration: Normal
Weight: 2314 lbs.
Drivetrain: Front/Front (FF)
-----

Then when you choose the car you want to look at, you get a beautiful 360 view of the car under the lights of the showroom, so everything looks shiny and beautiful. From there, you see a scrolling marquee roll across the screen telling you more about the car. Of course, you will see the same information in the window above, but there will be more information. For example, you can read up on the measurements of the car, engine type, torque, and modifications (if any). And also you can choose different colors in which you want your car. Here will be something different. You can choose between different packages. So if you want the car with a small performance boost (like semi-racing tires or a special rear spoiler), you can add those options to your car. But it will cost you more money in some cases.

Now let's say you want a RACE CAR (we all do). Well, and I think ALL car manufacturers in the game should have one, but there are some special areas in some showrooms which feature race cars and rare treasures. Staying with Honda, you looked at the cars and you wanted to see some other cars either commercially available or any car that has to be earned by winning a championship or race, you can click on a certain door that will take you into the Special Showroom. The special showroom will have some sort of techno music with a classical beginning (imagine a song of Mozart's that goes right into Darude, Paul Van Dyk, or whatever), and you can choose race cars and rare machines. This is what the window would look like if you rolled over a certain car in this garage, whether it's a lightly-modified economy car, a heavily-modified car, a purpose-built race car, or even a concept car, this is what the window would look like if you rolled over the Nakajima NSX:

-----
Car Manufacturer: Honda
-----
Car: Team Kunimitsu NSX
Price: 650,000 Cr
-----
Year: 1998
Horsepower: 611 hp (maybe)
Aspiration: Normal
Weight: 2601 lbs
Drivetrain: Mid/Rear (MR)
Modification: Purpose-Built
Category: GT/Sportscar
-----

Then when you view the car, you get more information about that model, including some car history in racing.

I'll have more ideas to share, but that's it for now. How do you think GT4 should look in terms of Menus and Presentation?
 
I like your ideas. I would like to see the year of a car in my garage when i win it...since GT4 will have many repeats of the names of cars, when i try to get the cars i want, i would like to know the year of it so i can cross it off the list. Good idea.
 
I like your thinking, If any of you have played PGR2 you would know they have a smilar thing with the cars in a showroom type area and I would love that feature to be added to GT4. Although with a bit more to it, like you explained john. Each manufacturer should have different styled showrooms to reflet their image and possibly the design of real world showrooms.

For the rally cars, maybe a dirt track with each car under a tent alongside the track would be nice. Also you should be able to walk around in 1st person or 3rd person(doens't matter to me) and check out the cars from any angle you desire. Also this can be applied to your own private garage possibly alongside a test centre that features all the machine tests and even a technical track like complex string. You could just load the test centre and you appear in your garage full of cars where you can walk around and then once you found the car you desire just press triangle and you jump in and then you can drive out and do the tests you want.
 
I like the showroom idea, but effeciency is very important. If it takes too long to navigate around to get the car I want, I'm going to be annoyed. Maybe if they had a third person character you controled and could walk around, that would be cool. This of course could easily be pulled into the idea of making it a "GT Career" type game where you have a character you're trying to build up.

In addition to that, I would like to be able to sort the cars. If I'm looking for a car for the MR races I'd like to view a showroom of just MR cars. Or if I need a car for a race with restrictions such as 300HP, I want to see all cars under 300HP. And the same with non-race oriented options like convertibles. Wouldn't it be niice to see all the convertibles in a room together? (:
 
Grrrrr....... Kirk Herbstreit is from Ohio State. I'm a long time OSU football fan.
 
Sorry, Labounti. I'm still young to football. I think Lee Corso is from FSU while Kirk is from THE OHIO STATE BUCKEYES.

Now in terms of menus, I think they should be stylistic as well. You know, be stylistic, but not too showy. Don't have uncessary animations that make no sense. I can't comment on Menu presentation, but for the most part, I like the ideas you all are giving. And someone mentioned a 3rd person view. That would be cool, but I want to be as simplistic as possible. I'm using that idea based on R-Type Final. I have a demo of R-Type Final courtesy of a PSM magazine. I seen the little museum mode, and the demo has three different ships, and you can scroll around the museum floor to look at them and it will show it. But for GT4, I think that when you find a car, you can click on it, and it will automatically rotate so you can see every detail of the car. Another nice consideration is to have sections, so that you don't see the same car elsewhere. For example, if you wanted a Mitsubishi Lancer, there is a section exclusive to Lancers. From there, you can browse all Evolutions of the Lancer. I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII. You can even buy the rally variants, as they will be at the center of the Lancer section. This is just an example for long-running cars.
 
Most important to me, in regards to menus, is that they load instantly. This business about waiting a few seconds to go back and forth through game menus is a bunch of crap. The only thing I want to wait on is the track / race to load.
 
Yeah Sega GT 2002 had long menu loading times & that was a real pain, not good for an impatient person like me ;)

Still its better in Sega GT Online.

I still prefer menu style in GT1, GT2's was ok, although GT3's was easy to navigate it seemed too much like an arcade game menu. It was always cool in GT1 & 2 as it seemed like u were picking a place on the map to visit. It didn't quite feel the same in GT3.
 
Now, I'm going to actually talk about the R-Type Final thing as I play the demo from my Official Playstation Magazine sampler disk.

The game mode in question is "Data and Gallery" where I am getting this "showroom" data. From the demo, I went to "R Museum." When the loading screen completes, you are in a big room with a marble floor, and plenty of stands. You get a small map to the left. The reason why I mentioned this is because this mode is perfect to show off cars in GT4. I know someone was talking about that PD would come to this site and take a look around at what GT fans would have to say about GT4, so I hope this would be a good option. But in "R-Type Final's" R Museum, you don't get full 360 views of the car you're looking at. Of course, when you find something you want to look at, from the top-down view,the camera will zoom in on what you are looking at, and you will get an idea to what you are looking at. So for GT4, I'm thinking more of an "R Museum," but you can be able to buy cars. And as I said, you can get more information in a constantly-changing dialog window. So basically, the presentation is a bit fresh. So you're not having to deal with a makeshift lineup. I mean, make the car hunting thing more interesting instead of just picking from glorified menus. And as far as other considerations go for showrooms, when you buy a car, you should get to see your car like you did when you got a new car in Ridge Racer V. You know, the little line of light shines across the car as you get a special view of the car. Or maybe getting a new car can be like those Nissan 350Z commercials when you just see a car in monochromatic grey scale in speed shots, and then you get something like: "You bought... ...the Nissan 350Z." And of course, it would ask if you would like to drive the car you just bought. And as far as tuning parts go, there should be 3D displays of the parts of the car you are tuning. I mean, Gran Turismo 3 had nice diagrams of the parts you want to put on to the car, and I don't think that you can actually render the new parts going on your car. What you CAN do, however, is make 3D renders of the parts you want to tune. Think of it as a speed shop, and you can treat that like a showroom if you wish. Of course, it would make tuning parts more interesting. Maybe I think that looking for cars and parts to tune GT cars is getting to be a tad plain. I think these concepts should be fine-tuned to be more jazzy as well as more interactive. When it comes to finding cars to race with, you can make it ho-hum, or you can make it exciting. And besides, there are already rumors of a Museum Mode for GT4, where you can race the cars you see in the museum.

Now comes a problem. How do we differentiate the modes so that they do not conflict? I still think that the experience off the track can be made more interesting than in the past. I mean, I've played NCAA Football 2004 and I swear I'm feel like I'm out there watching the two college teams play on Saturdays on the gridiron. I think Gran Turismo 4 even needs to be player-centered so that you actually feel important in the game. Feeling important in a race car or in a special race should make you feel like you belong in the game, and that's how I feel games should make you feel. I mean, when I played the demo to Madden NFL 2004, the game starts up with a fancy intro like you were watching NFL on FOX, and the generic theme song even sounds like NFL on FOX. I mean, presentation must be flawless, yet interesting. Any suggestions you want to add?
 
I was thinking of screenshot of GT4 I saw which had a 350Z on a grassed area with a color bar to select what color you want the car. I wonder if thats an indication on how the menu's will handled.
 
When you select a car, the GT4 video I seen with the 350Z in the grass is a little of what you are talking about. A game with some of the most unique lighting sequences for each level is Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution. If you fight outside on top of some building with helicopters circling, the lighting will change wonderfully. Maybe a consideration for certain "showrooms." Another idea I had was to have showrooms by categories. For example, a showroom featuring only cars before 1970 would be in a showroom that is actually a grassy field on a beautiful, sunny day. An interesting American car "showroom" would be either a drag strip or an infield parking lot at an oval. An all-Japanese car showroom? It better have race queens and Auto Show girls. You also would want to have Japanese dancers dancing to superweird-sounding Japanese music (Morning Musume, for example) to get into the feel that you're in Japan. The coolest showroom would feature sport compacts in a parking lot with tall buildings in the distance.

In terms of buying cars, another idea is that maybe the "showroom" can be in car categories. So if you went to Toyota and wanted a Supra, first off, you choose the Supra, and the section has cars arranged from oldest models to newest model, or you can choose newest models to oldest. Which ever you want is interchangable, and you can choose whether you want models to be in ascending or descending order. Another way to think of it is to include race cars based on the stock model. So if you wanted to look at works cars and street cars of the same car (like the Supra RZ, and then you see the Castrol Supra GT), then you can choose if you want that. I'd say that when you buy a car, you can choose (you all may like this idea) if you want to test drive. If you want to test drive the car, press R1. if you want a more detailed description of the car (like for a museum), press L1. If you test drive, you can drive around on a pre-determined track, like an empty parking lot a la Autocross. You are free to test drive to see if the car is one you'd love to buy. If you were testing rally cars and race cars, you'd have to pay a fee of maybe 500 Cr or 1,000 Cr for more rare cars. Concept cars can't be test driven. And if a car's lineup has only one car, which is a race car or rarity (like Shelby and its Cobra), the only car in the showroom will be that car, and it will have a special light show. Another "showroom" option is to have show areas different from one another. So if you were buying Renaults, you want to be in an environment like the Le Mans circuit, or a place overlooking Paris. Maybe you can have special Japanese cars overlook downtown Tokyo (and that would be a beautiful sight).

More ideas when I get to them. Reply if you wish!
 
Well, I got SPRING freaking BREAK for goodness sake! (calms down) I am creative though, have the imagination of a child. When a good idea comes to mind, I like to share to the world. Something I joke to myself is that I'm 21, and when I play Gran Turismo, I'll feel like I'm 8. How about the rest of you? Like my ideas? Hate my ideas? Want to add more to the topic? Go ahead.
 
I know I titled my thread as "Menu and PRESENTATION considerations." Let me try my hand as presentation.

I think that you can choose what HUD you want for the race from the top right corner from GT3. Sometimes, the HUD (heads up display, by the way) had three rows: Best, Last, and Time. These primarily shown The best lap you did, the last lap time, then the current time. Sometimes, the HUD would have your best lap, and then your last three lap times. One of which would work better so that you didn't see two different HUDs for the track in question. Some of you GT3 players may recognize that. I'd say that PD would take lines from the EA Sports games. EA Sports have been king at several different sports. They've done NFL, NCAA sports, MLB, professional boxing, Formula One, NASCAR, Soccer, Rugby... they basically covered almost everything. To help in the presentation department, you can get a fancy graphic showing your three best lap times, sometimes your last three lap times, or anything like that. I'd say to keep the Best, Last, and Time setup, and just leave the other times in special graphics. It would help in presentation, making it look more like a professional race on TV rather than a kid playing his/her racing game.

Another idea I had for your home garage, I'd say that you can upgrade your garage to go from your Mom's garage, to an airplane hangar. You can, of course, dress things up. So if you want to show off your best cars by placing barriers around it or mannequin racers around it or girls bending over to look at the car, so be it. If you want strobelights, disco balls, glow stick dancers, whatever... your choice. But to aid in presenatation when it comes to upgrading your car, I'd imagine specialized rendering of parts upgrades. So if you wanted to drop in a racing intercooler or a bigger radiator, your car will see that radiator hiding behind the front bumper, like in Tokyo Xtreme Racer 3. Same goes for a racing muffler. 3D-rendered, generic car parts would be an interesting touch. That way, you can tell just what is going into your car rather than the 2D drawings. How about being able to choose races based on posters and paintings in a racing paper? For example, an ad for racing Tokyo R246 for 50 laps:

"Tokyo R246, a high-speed thrill for racers alike

ATTENTION ALL RACERS! Tokyo offers Route 246 to be raced on professionally. Start your race on the Aoyoma-Dori, all the way to National Stadium, and all the way down the back strectch and see a beautiful city made even more beautiful with fantastic cars. Earn the title of "Tokyo's Fastest" in beautiful Tokyo!

IA License competitiors can enter with no restrictions on car choice or type."

More ideas when they come to me. Until then, that's all.
 
I think they did a great job with the showroom load times in GT3, compared to GT2 (GT1 was quicker). The pointlessness of displaying cars you can't buy in the showrooms anyhow...just more waste. (In fact, I'm against anything wasteful in GT4, because we will have waited for 3 years for the finished product.)

The single tuning shop was a great idea in GT3...no longer do you have to worry about where you tune your Spoon Integra (Honda? Acura?).

Lastly, I'd like PD to get their Japanese translated better for the event titles. I can deal with "Caribra", but the "declaration of 4WD supremacy" is almost embarrasing to read.
 
I think that if you bye a car it should disapper from the new car or used car menu. And if you sell it it will be in the used car menu. So if u bye a new Nissan Skyline GTR and mod it u can sell it then bye it for a little more than a used GTR becuase of the mods. It would just give the game that realistic edge.
 
I really like your thinking John, you seem to be a car fan and not just a racing fan as I like looking at cars just as much as driving them and what you explain is an excellent way to satisfy people like us. I don't care if these ideas aren't put to use in the game, but it would be nice.
 
Thank you, GT3Freak. I appreciate that.

Now keep in mind that this is about menus and special presentations. I'm not talking about the weird hue of blue when you raced against Dejected Angel in Tokyo Xtreme Racer 3, but I'm staying to action off the track.

On that, here is a nice idea if you want to take a look at a certain car. This option is what I like to call the "Special Info." What this option will do is show you the car at speed with more enhanced details about it. The car will race around a track similar to the Motorsport Park in Gran Turismo 2 for smaller cars, and then a longer track (but not too big) for the more powerful cars. And if you choose a rally car, you get the privledge of seeing it in action as it goes from pavement to dirt like with Tahiti Circuit (GT3). What this "special info" (or you can call it S-Info) will give you the basic dynamics of the vehicle (hp, torque, drivetrain, year, and such). And with some cars, you can instantly access that car in the Gran Turismo museum mode if it has a long generation. For example, the Mazda RX-8 has a lot of rotary history. You can look back at the Mazda RX-3, then the 787B, the RX-7 of 1993 and up, all the way up to the RX-8. It is a way for you to learn cars, plus it enhances the types of cars you can race. S-Info will also allow you to view the history of the car manufacturer and look at key automobiles that shaped the manufacturer. And to you muscle car fans, how would it feel to see the Ford Model T, all the way to the 2005 Mustang and Ford GT?

So, it's a win-win deal. You're a car fan, you're playing a racing game, why not learn a little more than you already know? S-Info for race cars will tell you about the history of the race car. Examples include endurances, rally races, championships, top drivers to pilot them... I mean, if you drive a race car others have taken to victory, and you drive as swell as they have, you'd begin to feel more important racing in Gran Turismo 4.

When it comes to presenting cars, I liked the presentations based on Gran Turismo Concept, but for the PC, Need For Speed: High Stakes. NFS:HS had cars in a showroom style, and the cars had very decorative appearances (before you have the 5-0 on your butt). You look at your car as if it were on a turntable and was incredibly important, and you see your car on the screen. I say if you were in front of a race car/rally car, you should see the motorsports division on the TV screen and then there should be a fantastic light show. I don't think smoke should be a consideration, even if you were looking at the Pontiac GTO for example. But, Gran Turismo is more about the cars, as well as the caliber of the driver. Make them both feel important. On that note, if you have your own ideas, share them.
 
Well, I'm going to make like Jeff Bagwell of my hometown MLB Team (Houston Astros) and I'm going to try to rack up a homer on this one...

Speed Channel has road racing coverage, and after seeing the Daytona 24 and Sebring 12, there is another idea that would be a bit easier to understand. For example (I'll use Sebring), the LMP1 had numbers in red with the Running Order at the top of the screen. The other classes had different colors. When you go out into the world, you'll note the "My Car" thing. A futuristic-looking window at the bottom right shows a special color as a border. A color configuration will tell whether a car is normal, a compeition car, and such. To me, the crystalized window glows in white when a car is new and normal and unmodified. When modified for racing, the borders glow in blue when the car has been modified. When the car has had full weight reduction and a racing mod (unknown if it is possible), or if the car is a tuner, the borders glow green. But if a car is a pure race or rally car, the border glows red. The importance of this border system is so that you don't go into a "Normal Car Only" race with a modded car. And oh yes, if you go in with a road car version of a race car and it has some tuning to it, the border around the "My Car" display will be white, but slowly flash blue. This is key in knowing that you don't go into such a race with the wrong configuration. And if a series asks for race cars only, you'll know that you can enter or not depending on race regulations.

Now, this brings up a special consideration. In your garage, there will be a special option you can access if you are looking up info on your car. For example, let's say you have a Mine's Skyline in your virtual garage. If you look up information on it, you can have an option that "scans" the available championships your car can compete in. So for your Mine's Skyline, a list in the Info center for your screen should note the races you can enter with your car in its current configuration. Most notably would be 4WD Race, Race of Red Emblem, Turbo Race, just to name a few. Now let's say you had the Mobil 1 Nakajima NSX. The races would increase. Examples would include: MR Race, All Japan GT C'ship, NA Sports Championship, Formula GT (I don't know why you would), NSX Cup... And if you want to race in the specified event, you can choose a race and quickly enter the event. It's like you can instantly compete in a race just by having a car you can qualify for. It is like a quick race, only that you can complete the game faster knowing that you have a car to compete with. And if, for example, you have an Acura NSX when a race requires a Honda NSX, you don't have "Type R Race" in your "Race List."

Well, I'm done here. Now it's your turn.
 
When I opened this thread, I wanted this to be like "Presentations, including Menu presentation." But I feel that there should be ways to enhance the menu showings, especially during upgrades and new cars. For one, the "click 'Buy' then confirm" deal is getting a bit old. For one thing, you find a car, wish to buy, confirm, you got a new car to your garage. Then when you go to upgrade, you have to click on what upgrade you want, read info, confirm, install (yes or no), end. To make things a bit more fluid, here's what I might suggest:
(This might be pretty long, but stay with me)

I'd want to say that if you want to buy a new car, I'd say you find the car in my "showroom" example, and click on Buy. If you have the money, you will be asked to confirm as usual. But when you get to the confirm screen, don't go to a black screen asking for confirmation. I'd say that the car you are looking at should have a bright light shine on it and blacking out the other cars. This way, you get to see all the information about your car on the left side, while in the bottom right, corner, you see "Do you Wish to buy the (name of car)?" While this dialog shows up, you can still see the car you wish to buy without having to go to a black screen. Then when you get the car you want, some showy, sparkly effects (my favorite effects, especially when done right) will occupy the screen confirming your purchase. I mentioned earlier (much earlier) that if you wanted different variations of the car you wish to buy, you should cycle through the car types with L1 or R1. Then when you find a car you want, click on that one, choose whatever colors, then confirm your purchase. If you want to buy some light performance parts, or if you want to buy it as a modified works car (new racing bodykit and racing muffler and other full-racing parts, or racing bodykit plus graphics and racing muffler and other full-racing parts), then you can choose that, and your final purchase will cost more with the performance options.

Now to upgrades. Again, the car you currently are using should be shown in all its rendered glory. The tuner shop is a seperate "showroom." In fact, it is a store housing everything from racing bodykits, to mufflers, to engine upgrades, and more. If you want to find a certain department of the tuner place, find that on the tuner shop map. All the while, you can find a department and whatever cosmetic you purchase to your car (like the muffler or racing tires) will be, or should be rendered. If you are buying parts, first you must highlight the car parts to upgrade. If you choose the engine, for example, you can choose between N/A and turbo parts, engine modifications, computer chips, port and polish, displacement up (if need be), and even a dyno system that you can have for a small fee of maybe 150 Cr (maybe I'm agreeing with the other thread). Once you pick some aspect of the car to upgrade, each time you roll over a different option, the description will change. To confirm what you wish to buy, just go to "buy" and then you'll see "do you wish to buy?" and then "do you wish to install?"

To make things simpler, your car will be shown like in a big, stylish showroom. This showroom will have a lot of parts for sale. Like some of the menus in Gran Turismo 3, your car will be shown above the line of options that you can tune your car with. To make things better with the ears, the music could either be like the Tune Shop music in GT3 or be slow techno music with a hip-hop style. The menus are shown in stylistic ways, so that you get a vibrant look at the car parts available for your car. I think you should be able to see the car you are tuning and some of the parts you can add to it. If you can't have 3D renderings, then the model examples from GT3 will do. And for the racing modification, you should be able to notice your car looking different, especially with lightweight stages 2 and 3, and of course, the racing modification. An option (this may spark some controversy) to go with the racing modification would be to have an option to upgrade to a more powerful racing-exclusive engine to take advantage of the serious upgrades. This option, in fairness, should only be for modified street cars that want to be full-time race cars. So imagine taking a Supra with its V6 and putting in a TRD N/A V8 like in the JGTC Supras. More on this topic later! Speaking of later, SEE YOU later!
 
the menu music in GT1 was pretty koo. maybe they could bring back some of that style. GT2 shocked me with boring jazz. it didnt have the feeling of the original game atmosphere. and i was saddened even more when they just carried it over for GT3.
 
My thoughts exactly about the menus on 1,2 and 3 Z32. If I could choose between a flashy showroom type menu and a retro GT1 style menu, I'd go for the latter. (Still the daddy for menu's are early 90's sensible world of soccer games). The menu design/presentation of a game quite literally shapes it's character. When you think about it, the difference between the actual gameplay of an arcade game and a simulation is not even close to the most instantly striking thing that sets them apart.

1) Aesthetically, I think a very simple, uncluttered menu on a black background is so much nicer than some visual orgy with ten animated layers and aggressive jazz music. I don't want to feel like I'm in a casino. Simple menus have a far more professional feel. It's easier on the eye (and ears). I remember I used to feel relaxed as I casually browsed GT1's menu screens, compared to GT3 where I rush through as fast as possible.

2) Being able to see all the cars on the game, in huge detail, right from the start kind of ruins it for me. I'm sure everyone loves the race modification feature of GT2. In my opinion, the great thing about it was that it wasn't possible to see how a car would look in race form until you'd bought it. The result is that even after having played GT2 for god knows how many hours, I could go and play it now and find enjoiment from discovering cars I didn't even know existed. I like the way when I see my friends' garages, they have at least a few cars I've never seen before. I know most of you probably don't experience that, but I purposefully avoided systematically trawling for every worthwhile car in the game to preserve at least a few hidden treasures. I think they're worth more as unknowns.

On top of all that, the thought of how much time it would waste modelling vast showrooms for each manufacturer makes me cringe.
 
Well like I said, these are my ideas, I'm an art person, and I make my own visions because of my love of art and how much detail can go into a game. I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me. That's not humantistic because people will either love or loathe your ideas.

When it comes to jazzy music, I don't really mind it because I am a guy that's into anything with a good beat and a decent rhythm. If PD wanted to, here are some styles they could have chosen:

a.) Ridge Racer V. Known for techno music by artists no one ever heard of. This game's music is actually pretty good considering this was one of the first PS2 games. Sound can get glitchy at times.

B1.) MegaMan: Network Transmission. The coolest song I got into was the rock ballad when you faced "Fire Man" in the first mission. Afterwards, the music was pretty... alright. Just the usual style of music in Capcom games.

B2.) MegaMan games. One of my favorite MM themes I liked were Stone Man (MM5) and Gyro Man (MM5). The themes were mostly melodicand somewhat jazzy.

In Gran Turismo menus, I think the jazzy music kind of complements the cars you are looking at. I'm thinking of maybe a jazz theme (like that of Larry Carlton, David Sanborn, Keiko Matsui, and such), with some light techno. And then maybe make the tuning shop upbeat pop music. I like techno because it is rhythmetic. Sometimes the pulsating beats get you into the race. I sometimes feel the same with rock music, although I'm not really the rock type. I probably wouldn't like rock music when shopping for cars or parts. So either GT4 can build up on rhythmetic and even silent jazz music, add in techno and mix it with dance (as long as it doesn't sound like crap, or just go all-techno with a little rock music here and there. I brought up the "R-Type Final" Museum mode as an example for a big showroom. One idea you have to like is the chances of finding cars by one specific model and not just different variations. Like somoene talked about all the Mitsubishi Lancers. In my example, GT4 would feature a special section for each car, all you have to do is select which model type. In the example, you can choose the earliest Mitsu Lancer, all the way up to the EVO VIII. If you want to link to the rally cars and race cars for that model, you can. Plus you'll see a variety of cars there as well.

My knowledge of other games kind of helps me wonder if other games will base ideas off of them if they cannot come up with that idea in the first place. I played the DEMO to R-Type Final on my PS2 courtesy of a magazine. So experience was an asset for me. Some people, however, think experience isn't an asset and agrees with this quote:

"Experience is the worst teacher, it gives the test before the lesson." -(don't know who said this)

Anyhow, more to come in future replies.
 
First off, showroom good. What I miss fromGT2 is when you have a ton of cars in your garage, you loss track of what mods you have done to the car. It would be nice to list all the mods you have done on a sub screen like in GT2.
 
It seems like some people love the idea of the showroom and how I described it. I'm glad that I'm being appreciated for some of my ideas. Maybe you can share some ideas based on other games. Now personally, you can learn even the littlest concepts from other games, but the idea is to make them as realistic and relevant as possible to Gran Turismo.

I am fascinated by art, mostly stylistic and somewhat futuristic art. That's why I thought that shopping for cars and parts should be made more dazzling. I mentioned a showroom option, and I'm going to try to check out the upcoming Houston Auto Show. Having been to it maybe the last two years, to imagine a concept in GT4 would be interesting.

Now a concern raised was that a person does not want to wander endlessly through a showroom looking for one specific car. And in so, I posed two thoughts: (1) The showroom will feature new and newer cars, a seperate outdoor showroom shows used cars, and a special area within a stage will show off race cars. If a stage isn't a good idea, then at the center of a showroom lies the race cars and concepts. To make things a bit more interesting so that no one cheats, let's say that you need a certain license to purchase a race car, and a Super License to own concepts. (2) The showroom will feature all the new cars available for sale. But for cars that have many different model years and types (like many Lancers, Skylines, or Corvettes), they will all be in an easy-to-find section. Then you can select which model you wish. This option is ONLY available to car models which have four or more model years or variations. And my R-Type Final reference about the Museum, thing is, don't worry about slow graphics. You're looking top-down on the cars. You can, of course, zoom down to get a closer look at the cars available. When you enter a sector where a new or newer car is, you will instantly zoom to that car or car lot, and then be able to select your car.

If you want to make 1st-person navigation, it will be fun, but also frustrating for some. Frustrating for people going into Toyota and finding all sorts of cars from the deadly Supra to the beautiful 2000GT. If you want to make things fun, let's say you cross into a motorsport and tuned car showroom. Okay, but you go outside past the used car lot, and you see a car parked outdoors in a park near the car dealer. You see this car, and like love at first sight, you want to get it. For example, let's say you go out into the Used car lot for Toyota and you see a bunch of used cars. Then resting in the park under a tree-lined, stone-pavement city park, and the skies are sunny and cloudless is a beautiful Toyota 2000GT, or a one-off street car of the JGTC Supra. You know what this means? BURIED TREASURE! But let's make things tricky. Let's say that these cars can be bought for prices higher than what's sold at the dealer. So some extra navigation could be fun. If you don't think this would work for a Japanese car company, imagine finding a classic American or European car. Um-hmm... Just imagine. Maybe you're in Alfa Romeo's showroom, and hidden away in a special showroom across the street is an Alfa Romeo 145 BTCC Touring Car. Or maybe, you are in the city park in the shadow of not one car dealer, and you see a McLaren F1 that the owner will only give up if you have enough money and a Super License.

Having fun with an exciting game... that means LOTS MORE replay value. Well, thanks for your time. Reply on.
 
Some great ideas, but I don't think you should need a specific license to buy any particular car, keep the licences for races and the Cr for the cars. But you could and I think this is taking a bit f what you've been saying is have 3d showrooms that you can view in top down or 1st person, when you get to a car you should be able to select a camera that will allow you to view the car from any direction, also instead of pressing a button nd a stats page comes up, there would be a sheet on one of thoes tiny desks, poidiums whatere you would call it and you view the cars stats by moving upto or over that and then selecting it.

On the subject of dealers, I think each manufacturer should have it's own showroom, depending on the marque these would include new cars, used cars, racing models and then special models. The reason for seperating racing and special models is this, a racing model is self explanitory but a special model could be one off's or very limited cars such as the NISMO GT-R LM or the Ford GT40 road car ect. You should start off at the front of the showroom, the new cars would be inside, the used cars round the back and special models would be on special platforms that stand out but they would still be on show with the new cars and the race cars could be in a special garage type room with all racing equiptment around that is at the side of the main showroom.

When you select any given car, you should be given an options list, this would include available colours, and sports options that a particular car would have, luxury options are pointles in a racing game and would be a waste of time.

Other showrooms could also be available besides the makers ones, these could be a special showroom just for supercars, or a used car lot for small cars ect, I quite like the idea of a showroom with just cars from one race tpe, for example a showroom with just JGTC cars, the room would be divided in the middle, all the GT300 cars on one side and GT500 cars on the other, similar things could be done for raly ect but this is an idea that could easilly be overused, and was it could make going to the main showrooms for a race car pointless, so only a few of these showrooms would be available, the cars in these wouldn't be the same as the ones in the dealer, these would be private teams for example the JGTC Supra found in the Toyota showroom would be the Castrol Tom's Supra, the ones in the JGTC showroom would be the Woodone Supra and the Denso Sard Supra ect.
 
I'd rather have better sounds, better music and more poly count for cars and tracks rather then spend memory on showrooms for cars. The GTseries is not a simulator about purchasing cars, its a simulator about driving them.

Make a generic rolling track showroom if you want, just like in Need for Speed:Underground. You see your car, and reflections, the wheel turns for the rim effect and you can turn the car to your liking. No need for more.
 
There is and reading the thread title will tell you why, It's not the most importat thing but it would be an improvment, and if you want to discuss better sounds, music and a higher poly cound, feel free to do so but in the correct forum.
 
I have, don't worry.

As for 'improvement', i do believe 'More' doesn't mean 'better'.

The showroom idea is a fun idea, but its not a practical idea. The concept of purchasing a car in GT is not about shopping for it like you would do a car shop. Its to see the car, see its stats and make a decision.

In all GT titles, there are showrooms, which are plenty to show the car in '3D' and colour choices. Even Wheels. The game does not offer other options, so there is no need for more 'ways' to see the car.

There are no possible physical alteration to cars in the GT series, aside from the 'Race modification' option. Therefore, seeing the car turn around on a platform is as good as needed.

Spending energy on such a proposed menu is amazingly time consuming and in the end, will barely be used by the average gamer. If GT was on PC, that would be another story, as there are no memory limitations, where on PS2, this is a very broad issue to deal with.

So although i respect and understand the enthousiatic aspect of a cool 3D showroom where you can walk around the car and all, it is unpraticle.

On a more fonctionnal subject, have you considered the time it would take to 'walk' around the showroom, the possibility of looking up and down, the time it would take you to walk to your car, which is on the other side of the room? That would make half the audiance scream because its too slow, controls are not as they'd like. They simply want to see the stats or the way the suspension looks.

Having a turning Car on a black or cubing backdrop is plenty. On a personnal level, i'd like to have control of the 'turning' of the car, to stop it when i want, and rotate to my liking, but more is just not practical.

It sucks, but that's how game designers see and study any concepts.
 
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