Mercedes continues to ignore that MT's are awesome.

[land sea air]

or we could just talk about the AMG black

 

[Scaff]

Oh moderators. Always missing the big points and going for the minor ones. And you wonder why you guys get no respect.

Exactly what the hell does me being a mod have to do with any of the above at all?

I've never given negative reputation, and I have no idea what post you're referring to in your remark about the Altima, though if it helps I had no idea who you were until we began discussing this just now.

No idea who I was before this discussion. Care to explain exactly how you came to give the following...

...or the number of previous threads in which you have quoted me before.

So either you are incapable of remembering your own actions, or you are in breach of the AUP (you must remember the part about not posting knowingly false information), or are you simply going to try and hide behind it being a 'joke' again.

Scaff

 

[Duke]

Oh moderators. Always missing the big points and going for the minor ones. And you wonder why you guys get no respect.

Actually, we do get quite a bit of respect. Just none from know-it-all jackasses, a demographic segment in which we're not particularly worried about our low poll results.

I've never given negative reputation, and I have no idea what post you're referring to in your remark about the Altima, though if it helps I had no idea who you were until we began discussing this just now.

I beg to differ:

Almost as brilliant as the '02 Altima

...in response to this post. Now, the rep applied was 0 points, because that's what M5Power brings to bear. Without an integer reputation, there's no way to tell if it is positive or negative rep. Luckily, I happen to know that Mr. DeMuro really does think that the '02 Altima truly is brilliant, so I think perhaps Scaff was taking the comment as sarcasm when (for once) it was intended at face value.

 

[TheCracker]

Oh look, a performance car manufacturer producing a manual gearboxed version of a previously 'auto only' top-of-the-range supercar.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/206936/aston_martin_vanquish_s_manual.html

Looks like they are all ditching the good old manual box since everyone wants an auto

 

[///M-Spec]

Oh look, a performance car manufacturer producing a manual gearboxed version of a previously 'auto only' top-of-the-range supercar.

Wow. Aston will actually swap the tranny for you in a dealer service bay? That's the first time I've ever heard of that. Cool though. £15,000 Gah, you can buy a whole car for that amount.


M

 

[Dave A]

The people who pay £177,000 for a car have probably got £15,000 to burn. It is a lot of cash, but if you can afford a Vanquish and you want a true manual stick and clutch shift, then you probably won't be too hard pressed to pay for the conversion.

 

[TheCracker]

It would be interesting to see what proportion of new Lambo's and Ferrari's are bought with the semi-auto boxes.

 

[///M-Spec]

The people who pay £177,000 for a car have probably got £15,000 to burn. It is a lot of cash, but if you can afford a Vanquish and you want a true manual stick and clutch shift, then you probably won't be too hard pressed to pay for the conversion.

Yeah, I understand that. £15k is practically chump change for a typical Aston owner. But this is £15k for something that is usually a no-cost or cash back option in most other sports cars. Porsche, Ferrari etc all charge you extra for the auto or semi-auto. In this case, you're paying extra for the reverse.

EDIT: Put another way, 15k is almost 10% the total value of the car. So that's a bit like paying £2k to get a stick in an Astra.

It would be interesting to see what proportion of new Lambo's and Ferrari's are bought with the semi-auto boxes.

I've read that Ferrari expects 90% of all 599 and 612 buyers to go with the F1 option. Dunno what the split is for F430 buyers.


M

 

[Scaff]

Actually, we do get quite a bit of respect. Just none from know-it-all jackasses, a demographic segment in which we're not particularly worried about our low poll results.

I beg to differ:

...in response to this post. Now, the rep applied was 0 points, because that's what M5Power brings to bear. Without an integer reputation, there's no way to tell if it is positive or negative rep. Luckily, I happen to know that Mr. DeMuro really does think that the '02 Altima truly is brilliant, so I think perhaps Scaff was taking the comment as sarcasm when (for once) it was intended at face value.

If the Altima comment was meant as a positive then I am more than happy to stand corrected on that point, keep in mind that the closest European equivalent would be the 2002 Nissan Primera...

...and being compared to that is in no way a compliment.

What it does not change is that it clearly shows you know who I am and have conversed with me before. So the question still stands, did you forget (and memory loss at a young age is a concern), a deliberately miss-leading statement or are you simply going to try and hide behind it being a joke again.

You see I have not taken this off the point (that rests firmly in your hands), you stated (and in jest or not does not matter a jot) that the end of manual gearboxes is upon us and that the majority, if not all, manufacturers support this. I didn't agree, and got the usual sarcastic little comment from you, I simply ask that you stop diverting attention away and either back up you claim or acknowledge that its an opinion not a fact.

It would be interesting to see what proportion of new Lambo's and Ferrari's are bought with the semi-auto boxes.

Its low certainly, I believe the last figures I saw were around 80% for flappy paddle 'boxs (most of which still most certainly do have clutches) against 20% for manual. However that the manuals are still offered for these cars clearly indicates that the manufacturers are not simply trying to kill them off.

You even stole my thunder on the Aston, which since the manual box has been offered has been getting excellent reviews, many of which state that this is the gearbox the car should always have had.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Jay]

Something I find amusing about the Vanquish gearbox is it is completely based off a normal manual Tremec T56 gearbox which Aston modified themselves for automatic clutch and shifting. The 15,000 pounds you are paying is removing the more complex and expensive modified T56 for a usual standard T56 manual you would find in a Monaro or Viper for example (specs on all the versions of T56 do vary slightly). Sure they would have to add a clutch pedal, clutch cylinders and a modified interior console for it but on the other hand they remove the expensive autoshifting parts.

It is nice they have finally offered to some extent a proper manual, surprised it took so long and be short lived considering all the complaints of the paddle version.


Note I am assuming Aston are using a Tremec T56 for the normal manual conversion, makes sense.

 

[TheCracker]

It is nice they have finally offered to some extent a proper manual, surprised it has taken so long and be short lived considering all the complains of the paddle version.

Especially since the car is due to die later this year.

 

[RouWa]

BTW, I wonder how hard it is to drive a car with manual transmission and 450+ HP. My car has 125 HP. I recently drove a Megane Sport with about 220 HP. Totally different. I can't imagine how twice the power feels like.

 

[Duke]

It's no different. Usually as your engine power goes up, your clutch effort goes up, but that's about it. You just have to use a little care with the throttle... but that's no different with a powerful ATX car.

 

[Christhedude]

Here in Germany it's 95%+. I don't know a single person that owns a car with automatic transmission.

well i wouldnt say that. if there's a 5 series or 7 series bmw's its automatic.
you see some benzes... you have to assume that their automatic (so is ours -E320 cdi)

oh and actually, why arent automatic cars in europe so popular?

 

[Tornado]

Because fuel is more expensive, probably.

 

[Christhedude]

Because fuel is more expensive, probably.

well what does the auto box matter? anyways u drive mostly diesel cars over there so...

 

[Tornado]

well what does the auto box matter?

Slushboxes almost always have worse fuel economy than their manual brothers.

 

[///M-Spec]

well i wouldnt say that. if there's a 5 series or 7 series bmw's its automatic.

If it's a 7er, it has to be auto. 5ers can be either. Manual 5s sell in small numbers even here in the states.


M

 

[niky]

Slushboxes almost always have worse fuel economy than their manual brothers.

It's a vicious cycle... gas prices in Europe demand a smaller engine choice than in the US, and smaller engines generally don't do well with standard auto-boxes, simply because the extra weight and drag from the torque converter kill fuel economy in traffic.

Which makes it weird that in this country, we lean more towards the American paradigm... put an auto on everything! You don't know horror until you've managed to get just 10 mpg (US, not UK) out of a supposedly "economical" CRV... ...and you get to the gas station with an empty wallet...

The European inclination towards manuals might change if CVTs were to become more prevalent. It is a weird thing, though, turbodiesels actually get pretty decent economy out of slushboxes thanks to their great down-low torque. I suppose that the fact that modern CRDi engines are already so damn expensive makes people more hesitant to tick that option off, though.

 

[YSSMAN]

The European inclination towards manuals might change if CVTs were to become more prevalent. It is a weird thing, though, turbodiesels actually get pretty decent economy out of slushboxes thanks to their great down-low torque. I suppose that the fact that modern CRDi engines are already so damn expensive makes people more hesitant to tick that option off, though.

There was an interesting analysis of the CVT transmission done in C/D this month, comparing the Nissan Versa CVT to the slushbox version. The article discovered that although the CVT was largely a better idea when it came to performance, the slushbox eventually outdid the CVT in overall fuel economy because of the fact that the engine doesn't have to deal with the extra load to operate the transmission pulley setup.

...So it largely depends I guess. CVTs are great in the city for those of us who don't want a manual, but when it comes to cruising, slushboxes are the setup of choice against the manual (despite the fact the manual usually gets better highway MPG).

What is important to recognize about CVT is that most companies have abandoned the idea altogether. As far as my research goes, only Nissan and Toyota offer them in their vehicles, as VAG and GM gave up on the technology a few years ago...

 

[1X83Z]

So either you are incapable of remembering your own actions, or you are in breach of the AUP (you must remember the part about not posting knowingly false information), or are you simply going to try and hide behind it being a 'joke' again.

Truly incredible - considering that was POSITIVE reputation.

What it does not change is that it clearly shows you know who I am and have conversed with me before. So the question still stands, did you forget (and memory loss at a young age is a concern), a deliberately miss-leading statement or are you simply going to try and hide behind it being a joke again.

How did they make you a moderator? Three things:

1. The Nissan Primera is IN NO WAY related to the Nissan Altima. Why would you post that when you so clearly have no idea what you're talking about? Seriously - who's posting false information now?
2. The 2002 Nissan Altima is, in my view, the single best midsize sedan since the 1986 Ford Taurus, which I have said in the past is the single best car of all time. Of course, since you compared it to an unrelated vehicle, you'd have no idea of this.
3. I only now am aware of who you are. I thought 'Swift' was a moderator. Usually I don't bother looking at the name of who I'm quoting if the post doesn't mean that much to me. The guy who blew up at me in that thread in Cars in General? I don't know who that was. I should write it down though so I don't accidentally be nice to him.

Go away if you're going to post like that - you've got to love wielding your moderator power ('knowingly posting false information') when you have no idea what you're talking about, particular when Duke TOLD YOU that you were in the wrong. Classic. By the way, what's worse - me knowingly posting false information, or you unknowingly making false accusations? I think the latter.

This is going down as one of my favorite moderator activities - up there with the time daan posted in the DYSAGT thread just to start a fight with me, completely off-topic.

EDIT: for the first time, I am giving negative reputation. This kind of behavior is classic of the moderators here, but it shouldn't be.

 

[coldblooded69]

I think ATs are far better than MTs... what's the advantage of the latter???

 

[niky]

There was an interesting analysis of the CVT transmission done in C/D this month, comparing the Nissan Versa CVT to the slushbox version. The article discovered that although the CVT was largely a better idea when it came to performance, the slushbox eventually outdid the CVT in overall fuel economy because of the fact that the engine doesn't have to deal with the extra load to operate the transmission pulley setup.

...So it largely depends I guess. CVTs are great in the city for those of us who don't want a manual, but when it comes to cruising, slushboxes are the setup of choice against the manual (despite the fact the manual usually gets better highway MPG).

What is important to recognize about CVT is that most companies have abandoned the idea altogether. As far as my research goes, only Nissan and Toyota offer them in their vehicles, as VAG and GM gave up on the technology a few years ago...

Not being familiar with that box in particular, I can't comment. I guess it would depend on the engine and the boxes in question. CVTs can also be too low-geared, as there is a definite final drive.

In my experience with the CVT, Honda's CVTs do seem more efficient in terms of both fuel economy and performance than their older ATs, but as we don't have an apples to apples comparison of, say, a Honda Fit CVT versus a Honda Fit AT, it would be difficult to quantify.

 

[Rue]

Only thats not true, they arn't leaving clutches behind. Auto's are only more common than Manuals in America. The vast majority of cars sold in Europe are manuals and I'd hazard a gues that thats true of Asia as well.

Most everyday cars here are in HK auto.

 

[Scaff]

Truly incredible - considering that was POSITIVE reputation.

Ah so you do now remember it, I thought you had never given rep before or even knew who I was.

I notice that you forgot to include this part of my post in your quote....

If the Altima comment was meant as a positive then I am more than happy to stand corrected on that point, keep in mind that the closest European equivalent would be the 2002 Nissan Primera...

...and being compared to that is in no way a compliment.

...very gracious of you to take someone acknowledging a mistake and use it as a veiled attack.

How did they make you a moderator? Three things:

I can only suggest you ask Jordan about that, but as I have in no way brought anything to do with being a mod into this I still have to wonder why you have such a huge chip on your shoulder about the staff here. Anytime a mod disagrees with you, the fact that they are a mod is brought straight to the fore. If we are so damn biased against you then why stick around and if you have an issue with my conduct in anyway then I suggest you take it to one of the admin staff or Jordan. My status as a mod is totally irrelevant to this.

1. The Nissan Primera is IN NO WAY related to the Nissan Altima. Why would you post that when you so clearly have no idea what you're talking about? Seriously - who's posting false information now?

Did I say it was related directly to the Primera? No.

What I said was....

the closest European equivalent would be the 2002 Nissan Primera...

...hell from 2002 I could have picked just about any European Nissan product and a comparison to it would be seen by most as an insult (and I should know as I did work for Renault Nissan until 2001). It would have been false information if I had claimed that it was the same car or shared the same platform, neither of which I did.

2. The 2002 Nissan Altima is, in my view, the single best midsize sedan since the 1986 Ford Taurus, which I have said in the past is the single best car of all time. Of course, since you compared it to an unrelated vehicle, you'd have no idea of this.

Do you not recall lecturing me on taking things out of context, I acknowledged I was incorrect on that point, you can keep digging at it if you wish, but seriously I'm not the one who will begin to look foolish over it. So please enlighten me and explain exactly which 2002 European Nissan model I should have compared it with? Model ranges differ massively from market to market (which is exactly the point I am making in regard to auto vs manual) and I'm quite sure that I could pick a number of cars that are unique to Europe and you would struggle to pick a comparative model from the same manufacturer in the US market.

3. I only now am aware of who you are. I thought 'Swift' was a moderator. Usually I don't bother looking at the name of who I'm quoting if the post doesn't mean that much to me. The guy who blew up at me in that thread in Cars in General? I don't know who that was. I should write it down though so I don't accidentally be nice to him.

Nice to see that you are mature enough to not hold irrational grudges against people who simply disagree with you.

BTW - Swift is a moderator.

Go away if you're going to post like that - you've got to love wielding your moderator power ('knowingly posting false information') when you have no idea what you're talking about, particular when Duke TOLD YOU that you were in the wrong. Classic. By the way, what's worse - me knowingly posting false information, or you unknowingly making false accusations? I think the latter.

Which unknowingly false allegation would that be, a very rough comparison between two cars (as the Altima has never been sold in the UK what else from the Nissan stable would you like me to pick?). As you seem insistent on bring up the mod side of things you will notice that the AUP does allow for mistakes to be made, which is why it is specifically worded as follows....

You will not post any material that is knowingly false, misleading, or inaccurate.

...so no from an AUP point of view its the former that is worse.

This is going down as one of my favorite moderator activities - up there with the time daan posted in the DYSAGT thread just to start a fight with me, completely off-topic.

Yes its always the Mods out to get you, what evil nasty bullies we are. I'm sorry but that's a crock, if we really had it in for you do you honestly think you would still be here? A ban would not be a major problem for any of us to hand out to you, yet to date that's not happened.

EDIT: for the first time, I am giving negative reputation. This kind of behavior is classic of the moderators here, but it shouldn't be.

Again I have to ask how disagreeing with you on the future domination of the automotive drivetrain by automatics is classic behaviour from mods. I suspect its rather more a case that when we disagree and you throw a tantrum about it we are not intimidated by you as some members are. I also notice that despite attempts to the contrary you are still more comfortable with this direction of conversation than in explaining why you believe that all manufacturers will eventually (or currently are) attempting to remove clutches from cars (although I believe you are referring to the clutch pedal as a number of the 'top' sports cars you referred to previously still very much have clutches).

Regards

Scaff

 

[TheCracker]

Check and see what transmission all the 'top' sports cars use. If I recall correctly, Ferrari's top sports car has no clutch; 90% of Lamborghini's top sports cars don't have a clutch; Audi's new supercar has no clutch; Mercedes' supercar is clutchless; even the fastest, most powerful, most expensive, quickest Bugatti Veyron is devoid of a clutch.

I presume you mean Ferrari, Lamborghini and Audi's - paddle-shift manual gearboxes? ...they all have clutches.

The SLR does have an auto box, but the others are definately traditional manual boxes with the addition of clever electronic actuators to shift the gears. They are in no way a 'AT'. The Veyron, which is considered an auto of sorts, even has two clutches!

 

[Dave A]

To stop this getting uglier, I believe M5Power was referring to manually operated clutches, ie a clutch pedal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but any car with gears (perhaps barring CVT) actually has a clutch, manual, auto or semi. It's just a question of weather or not the clutch is operated manually or not.

 

[TheCracker]

To stop this getting uglier, I believe M5Power was referring to manually operated clutches, ie a clutch pedal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but any car with gears actually has a clutch, manual, auto or semi. It's just a question of weather or not the clutch is operated manually or not.

If he ment clutch pedal he should have said so. A 'normal' auto box doesn't have a clutch mechanism. This is the difference between a paddle operated auto - like in the SLR, and a paddle operated manual - like a Ferrari F1, Lambo E-gear or Audi R-tronic (which is a variation on Lambo's set-up) gearboxes.

 

[Scaff]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but any car with gears actually has a clutch, manual, auto or semi. It's just a question of weather or not the clutch is operated manually or not.

Not quite, automatic gearboxes fitted with a torque converter do not have mechanical clutches, the torque converter doing that job instead. It does get slightly more confusing in that torque converters themselves do contain clutches , however common agreement is that a torque converter automatic does not have a mechanical clutch in the way we commonly understand from manual transmissions.

Therefore it is a valid question to ask, when M5Power talks of cars without clutches, is this the loss of a clutch pedal (but the car still has mechanical clutches in the manner we commonly know - as in the Veyron, etc) or the loss of the mechanical clutch altogether (as in the vast majority of Mercedes automatics). From an engineering, design and driving point of view its quite a big difference.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Jay]

Well proper automatic transmissions do have actual friction clutches and bands to lock sections of the planetary gearset (these clutches are independent to the torque converter), but really this is being picky, we know Doug is refferring to conventional pedal controlled clutches.