Messing about with FFB and came across no SOPs

[dopedog]

OK so since upgrading from a TX spider to a TX full fat FFB i have been all over the shop with FFB in Pcars, sometimes thinking i found the gold then suddenly another car or track renders it usless.
I have used Jacks tweeks Grimeydogs tweeks, pretty much everyones!
Then i just thought one day, what is SOP doing for me. I removed it all, all zero from body down to SOP...... well... i love it, just working with the top settings to me works.

So simply anyone else doing this?

 

[Blood*Specter]

I removed it all, all zero from body down to SOP...... well... i love it, just working with the top settings to me works.

So simply anyone else doing this?

I started by moving everything to zero except the first four (4) values for FFB. Then I play with the setting only on the first screen of FFB settings for the car. I leave the main settings (where the calibrations is) alone. There are some recommended tweaks for the main FFB setting at the PCars site and at Inside Simm Racing with Darren Gangi.

I think the SOP is usable when you have a butt kicker or other suspension simulation for your rig. Our hands are very clever, but feeling what your butt feels while driving may be a bit too much for them. At least that's my take using a G27.

 

[Goruk]

Yes, i do

Try these:
Master Scale - 28
Fy - 68
Fx - 44
Fz - 86
Mz- 98

I use something arround these values for every car, some cars need some tweek, one or two clicks is enough

 

[bleeder]

Yes, i do

Try these:
Master Scale - 28
Fy - 68
Fx - 44
Fz - 86
Mz- 98

I use something arround these values for every car, some cars need some tweek, one or two clicks is enough

These are similar to my settings, yours are just a little stronger. Seem to works pretty nicely all round.

 

[dopedog]

OK mine are roughly this depending on car / class:

34-36

fy- 50-60
fx- 80-90
fz- 170-180
mx- 50-60

crazy how differnt, i'm on 75 FFB. tire force 80 and steering gain 1.00

 

[Blood*Specter]

Pretty much willing to adjust to any level to obtain good driving feel.
It does seem change from car to car. And of course we each may have different wheels.
And our individual feel is almost always different. For example, I start out like this:

24 - 26
fy- 70
fx- 70
fz- 80
mx- 70

After test drive I raise or lower depending on what I feel. With my G27, I find if I raise the first value past 26, I end up having clipping when I touch curbs or sharp bumps.

 

[bleeder]

I tend to run with:
24-28
Fx 70
Fy 40
Fz 80
Mx 70

Then move some SoP sliders accordingly. As long as I can get a decent feel of the bumps and curbs and the wheel isn't too heavy as to give me a workout I'm good to go.

FFB 75, tire force 100

 

[Blood*Specter]

I tend to run with:
24-28
Fx 70
Fy 40
Fz 80
Mx 70

Then move some SoP sliders accordingly. As long as I can get a decent feel of the bumps and curbs and the wheel isn't too heavy as to give me a workout I'm good to go.

FFB 75, tire force 100

My FFB in the Logitech Profiler is 100. My Tire Force in PCars is maxed out.

 

[dopedog]

I tend to run with:
24-28
Fx 70
Fy 40
Fz 80
Mx 70

Then move some SoP sliders accordingly. As long as I can get a decent feel of the bumps and curbs and the wheel isn't too heavy as to give me a workout I'm good to go.

FFB 75, tire force 100

Do you not think this FFB malarky is hard enough without mixing up your FY's and FX's!

For me its all about the FX, thats the feel of the car in corners weight transfer etc. Some if not most all of Jack Spades get rid of that. globals i run:

tire force 80
steering gain 1.00
scoop knee 86
scoop red 25

Biggest problem is some cars just don't work right full stop like some of the classics, i feel they are broke. Anyway i have nailed the GT cars and the prototypes and Touring cars.

The thing to watch is if your spending few hours doing this testing then if you go from a LMP car to a touring car the touring car feels broke for a few laps untill you get used it it, point is a touring car should feel more organic to a LMP car. Just wish there was a bit more to this 'game' than testing cars and FFB..... if we had custom championships or a descent career then i might not be doing all of this, added to that i'm doing it because patch 7 bust the tyres so once patch 8 hits all my settings might be usless again.....

 

[bleeder]

Do you not think this FFB malarky is hard enough without mixing up your FY's and FX's!

For me its all about the FX, thats the feel of the car in corners weight transfer etc. Some if not most all of Jack Spades get rid of that. globals i run:

tire force 80
steering gain 1.00
scoop knee 86
scoop red 25

Biggest problem is some cars just don't work right full stop like some of the classics, i feel they are broke. Anyway i have nailed the GT cars and the prototypes and Touring cars.

The thing to watch is if your spending few hours doing this testing then if you go from a LMP car to a touring car the touring car feels broke for a few laps untill you get used it it, point is a touring car should feel more organic to a LMP car. Just wish there was a bit more to this 'game' than testing cars and FFB..... if we had custom championships or a descent career then i might not be doing all of this, added to that i'm doing it because patch 7 bust the tyres so once patch 8 hits all my settings might be usless again.....

I don't like having too much Fy. If I have to struggle against the wheel lap after lap I'll get tired lol. I turn it down but not so far that the wheel feels floaty as that's pointless. Not even a fan of too much Mx as it makes the wheel vibrate when losing traction. As you say, it's different per car but I've spent so long on it now I'd much rather put my time into tuning. All I really know is that I massively dislike the default FFB on the cars. Way too strong.

 

[dopedog]

I don't like having too much Fy. If I have to struggle against the wheel lap after lap I'll get tired lol. I turn it down but not so far that the wheel feels floaty as that's pointless. Not even a fan of too much Mx as it makes the wheel vibrate when losing traction. As you say, it's different per car but I've spent so long on it now I'd much rather put my time into tuning. All I really know is that I massively dislike the default FFB on the cars. Way too strong.

Yes i'm of the opinion and i understand i may be WAY off with it, but, i personally believe that SMS set out to have a basic setting for each cars FFB but due to time issues just stuck the whole thing in and just let people get on with it, i think much of the settings originally would of been hidden.
Not once has a Dev ever actually explained ANYTHING of note about FFB and globals other than Casey (physics dev) who said he used default FFB, which explains why he keeps messing up the patches for the tyre model!!
I also think Jack Spades stuff is OK but over rated and most likely pointless for consoles anyway as he's on PC.

 

[bleeder]

Yes i'm of the opinion and i understand i may be WAY off with it, but, i personally believe that SMS set out to have a basic setting for each cars FFB but due to time issues just stuck the whole thing in and just let people get on with it, i think much of the settings originally would of been hidden.
Not once has a Dev ever actually explained ANYTHING of note about FFB and globals other than Casey (physics dev) who said he used default FFB, which explains why he keeps messing up the patches for the tyre model!!
I also think Jack Spades stuff is OK but over rated and most likely pointless for consoles anyway as he's on PC.

Jack Spades help steer a lot of us in the right direction so that was of use, even if I don't use his settings 100% now I think it was still valuable info. bmanic is another forum user who posts decent settings. No problem if we've moved on though.

 

[UkHardcore23]

Yes i'm of the opinion and i understand i may be WAY off with it, but, i personally believe that SMS set out to have a basic setting for each cars FFB but due to time issues just stuck the whole thing in and just let people get on with it, i think much of the settings originally would of been hidden.
Not once has a Dev ever actually explained ANYTHING of note about FFB and globals other than Casey (physics dev) who said he used default FFB, which explains why he keeps messing up the patches for the tyre model!!
I also think Jack Spades stuff is OK but over rated and most likely pointless for consoles anyway as he's on PC.

Pretty sure i read it was the backers that decided ffb should be the way it is after a poll on wmd forums.

 

[dopedog]

Pretty sure i read it was the backers that decided ffb should be the way it is after a poll on wmd forums.

I love the way WMD folk did that but not one of them pressed for custom championships...Still dosent explain why no dev has ever given any advice on FFB stuff, simple questions like difference between controller setting 1 2 3 got ignored when people were saying setting 2 works best etc, no dev has said Jack is right or wrong or way off, its been a bit of a joke and only the hardcore fanboys would suggest otherwise especially as each patch seems the change FFB anyway.
Its saving grace is that forza's FFB is utter utter *****.

 

[Blood*Specter]

"its been a bit of a joke and only the hardcore fanboys would suggest otherwise especially as each patch seems the change FFB anyway."

The lack of FFB explanation by SMS is somewhat puzzling. But the same thing happens with PD/GT franchise.
They don't explain how things should feel or how they should be adjusted for optimal performance. But they finagle with stuff every time they laydown an update. And those changes/adjustments are undocumented. On the GT Forum, we called them "Ninja Edits".

It seems SMS/PCars indulges in the same skullduggery. But stable FFB is a dream of mine. I suspect it will never be stable across the board because of differences between wheels, and electronic differences between computers and consoles might have something to do with it. Small variances in operating voltage might be responsible.

Hopefully SMS is actually doing "Ninja Edits". I would show they are still interested in producing a good product.

 

[dopedog]

The lack of FFB explanation by SMS is somewhat puzzling. But the same thing happens with PD/GT franchise.
They don't explain how things should feel or how they should be adjusted for optimal performance. But they finagle with stuff every time they laydown an update. And those changes/adjustments are undocumented. On the GT Forum, we called them "Ninja Edits".

It seems SMS/PCars indulges in the same skullduggery. But stable FFB is a dream of mine. I suspect it will never be stable across the board because of differences between wheels, and electronic differences between computers and consoles might have something to do with it. Small variances in operating voltage might be responsible.

Hopefully SMS is actually doing "Ninja Edits". I would show they are still interested in producing a good product.

I suppose the other problem is one of human nature, if theres buttons to press, or things to fiddle with, we'll fiddle! I still mess about with my TV settings probably once every week and i've had my HD TV for 8 years! (brought it when they were expensive so can't get rid of it!!)
So PCars with all those things to mess with, added to that you'll see stuff on forums where people swear they found FFB nirvana, so you resist it, but the urge takes over "is it better than mine" so you tweek to their settings, then someone else says thats wrong, so you then convince yourself it is, so you tweek some more, one tweek in globals changes all the open wheel car feel...so you tweek again, oh but now GT cars feel too light....
And it goes on and on...give us humans things to mess with and we will. In truth call me a dumb ass console casual player but i think i'd rather a good set up out of the box and then with few settings split for fx fy mz etc with sliders for 'scale'...
Much of the issue is "what if i did that would it be better" then once you fiddle its throws spanners in works in other cars then you just go down the rabbit hole again..
Thankfully there is no real 'game' in PCars so the game becomes fiddling with FFB and driving random cars around which i enjoy...

I also wonder if SMS meant SOP and body for gaming motion rigs only, i dont use sop or body now but theres few folks on official forum using sop and body for controllers!! No one questioned them about this fact!
I think SMS like the fact FFB keeps people talking and the biggest threads on official forum are about FFB, something else i think SMS have been a bit naughty with.
Sure its something they will 'solve' for PCars 2 and will be in the sales pitch along with custom championships and better tyre model and physics..

 

[Mike_grpA]

I used SoP when I first started with a wheel, but I was mostly steered in that direction by people over at the official forum. I too, now use no SoP, and it feels much better. Mixing the SoP signals in with the front end signals just makes the whole FFB feel vague and confused. No SoP feels much more realistic to me.

 

[dopedog]

I used SoP when I first started with a wheel, but I was mostly steered in that direction by people over at the official forum. I too, now use no SoP, and it feels much better. Mixing the SoP signals in with the front end signals just makes the whole FFB feel vague and confused. No SoP feels much more realistic to me.

Indeed, hell if it works for people then great, but for me now i'm with you. I get what seat of the pants is trying to do but its rather pointless unless its actually going into your seat, truth to me is whenever i'm driving on track or even to the shops i feel stuff in the seat but i'd really not fancy that going direct to my wheel, its daft, then add to that body which adds your own bodies g forces, how the HELL can all that work together?!
Most modern day high class race cars have such over engineered steering mechanisms that the actual drivers imputs can be pretty much controlled anyway, like the brakes and throttle, if driver is lead footed well adjust this and its gone! Driver is over driving the car, adjust this its gone!
Accept your sat in front of a computer but just enjoy the feel of road and bumps and a bit of bite around corners and we're golden, adding these canned SOP effects are just noise. I feel bumps in my car through the wheel in real life and thats all i want in a game.
But like i say people on official forum are saying they use sop on controllers and say they can feel it...lol...
Emperors clothes anyone?

 

[dopedog]

Also to add i had a TX spider wheel before the TX full fat, and i was thinking the other day how much fun i used to have on PCars and weirdly i can correlate the enjoyment to pain / hassle factor to when i got the TX full fat. I may dig out the Spider wheel so either i'll realise how great the full fat is or just stick with the Spider for a bit. I can't be arsed with this FFB hassle even today i had a drive as had spare hour and spent 50 mins messing about with the FFB because it felt different from last night (not booze i dont drink!!), it changes from track to track but not in a normal way and if i have change FFB for each track then sod that.

 

[Mike_grpA]

For anyone who has a wheel that doesn't provide very strong ffb without clipping, set the ffb up so it doesn't clip, and go to the gym and do a serious heavy weights session. Your arms, chest, and shoulders should be completely spent when you're finished, so that even lifting your arms takes significant effort. Now, after a meal and an hour or two recovery, chuck on Pcars and have a race with your favourite car. You'll notice how much stronger the ffb feels haha.

I had to do a ~70 lap race in Formula A after getting back from the gym (well, didn't "have to", I wanted to), and the steering felt so stiff that it was affecting my lap times for the second half of the race lol. Towards the end, I was purposely avoiding the grip limit, so the wheel wouldn't weight up on me .

It's a cheap ffb upgrade for your wheel. Only costs energy and a couple of days of pain afterwards lol.

 

[diesel97]

Thats old school thinking that your FFB has to be like fighting a grizzly bear

 

[Mike_grpA]

Thats old school thinking that your FFB has to be like fighting a grizzly bear

A lot of the cars in Pcars are old school race cars, you'd need a very very expensive wheel to produce strong enough ffb to come close to how tough they were to steer. Some lower end wheels won't provide strong enough ffb to even match modern cars. When you race a car, you load the steering up much more than driving on the street. I had an E36 track car with power steering that felt very stiff when it was on the track on sticky tyres.

 

[Simfan David]

YES

I haven't used SOP in a long time. My thought is it would take away from the road feel or cover it up per say. Here is what I start with then tweak per car. Most of the time its just increasing or deacreasing the master scale to get what I want. Everything else I keep as is. The old lotus open wheelers I struggle with though. It seems to be missing that FY force. Do you guys get that to? Also a grind sometimes.

MS: 30+-
FX: 70
FY: 55+-
FZ: 100
MX: 80

 

[Mike_grpA]

YES

I haven't used SOP in a long time. My thought is it would take away from the road feel or cover it up per say. Here is what I start with then tweak per car. Most of the time its just increasing or deacreasing the master scale to get what I want. Everything else I keep as is. The old lotus open wheelers I struggle with though. It seems to be missing that FY force. Do you guys get that to? Also a grind sometimes.

MS: 30+-
FX: 70
FY: 55+-
FZ: 100
MX: 80

If you get that grinding sensation in the ffb, add Mz smoothing. IIRC the Lotus 49C used to do it really badly, and I needed to add quite a lot of Mz smoothing to it to eliminate the issue.

 

[Simfan David]

If you get that grinding sensation in the ffb, add Mz smoothing. IIRC the Lotus 49C used to do it really badly, and I needed to add quite a lot of Mz smoothing to it to eliminate the issue.

Thats right!!! You know I remember that fix from awhile back and just haven't played those cars for quite sometime. Thanks man!!!👍

 

[Mike_grpA]

Thats right!!! You know I remember that fix from awhile back and just haven't played those cars for quite sometime. Thanks man!!!👍

No worries mate, glad to help .

 

[drandiiski]

No SoP all the way!

 

[Dani46]

I read the whole thread because i want to improve my ffb settings, but to be honest i still don't know what SOP means.. Can someone tell me where I find these settings?

 

[bleeder]

I read the whole thread because i want to improve my ffb settings, but to be honest i still don't know what SOP means.. Can someone tell me where I find these settings?

It means Seat of the pants and is found on page 2 of the car FFB settings.

 

[Dani46]

Ok thx bleeder