MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm not sure what you're saying.

He's implying that the Ukrainians and the Americans knew about the shoot-down before anybody else - particularly the Malaysians - did, which he finds suspicious. Because apparently the Malaysians should have known about the loss of an aircraft on the other side of the world and in the middle of the night before authorities in the country where the crash happened, and the Americans, who have had satellites trained on the area for months to watch the Russian military build-up thirty kilometres away.

If you think back to MH370, it wasn't the Malaysians who first reported the disappearance - it was the Vietnamese, who alerted everyone nearby when the plane did not enter their airspace.

 

[Dotini]

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukra...defense-capabilities-say-officials-1405781508

Since western Ukraine knuckle-draggers knew the rebels had the Buk and didn't close their airspace, they may well have been hoping the eastern knuckle-draggers rebels would shoot down an airliner so they could pin blame on Putin and the separatist rebels.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I find that difficult to believe unless someone has cartoonish levels of supervillainry, and an ability to accurately predict the movements and behaviours or people and organisations that they have no contact with.

 

[Sanji Himura]

We know that Putin immediately rang Obama. Why? I believe it was for a genuine reason; the Russians would have been aware of this incident for a number of reasons outside the ATC coverage. They would also have been quickly aware of what had happened and the grave potential. I'm not here to defend Putin but he didn't get where he was by being stupid or by being unable to act genuinely at times.

The phone call was pre-arranged to discuss other matters, not primarily for Putin to inform Obama that the plane was shot down.

@Dotini, Even if Ukraine did sit on the intelligence, it was painfully obvious that the rest of the world took notice of planes going down sub-32,000 ft. Most of the airlines that operate out of Europe that use that corridor rerouted to avoid the warzone. Malaysia airlines did not.

 

[Dotini]

I find that difficult to believe unless someone has cartoonish levels of supervillainry, and an ability to accurately predict the movements and behaviours or people and organisations that they have no contact with.

Ukrainians, whether east or west, are all knuckle-draggers and know each other well.

But since Ukraine is a major global crossroads for air traffic, I am willing to believe they persisted in keeping their airspace open in order to continue to collect transit fees.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The phone call was pre-arranged to discuss other matters, not primarily for Putin to inform Obama that the plane was shot down.

You're absolutely right, I'd forgotten that... for which I blame you entirely

 

[Keef]

Maybe it's the pilot in me but I think crash investigations are pretty important. I'm kind of surprised the EU or somebody hasn't simply initiated emergency military response to secure the site. If Ukraine and Russia won't do it maybe we should just send our big bad selves in there to do it. We already fight everybody for no reason so at least we could do it for a good cause this time.

 

[Dotini]

maybe we should just send our big bad selves in there to do it. We already fight everybody for no reason so at least we could do it for a good cause this time.

Don't throw away your Libertarian cred, Keef!

Our role is not to go abroad slaying dragons, or ride over mountains in a white hat to right all wrongs like some later day Shane.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Maybe it's the pilot in me but I think crash investigations are pretty important. I'm kind of surprised the EU or somebody hasn't simply initiated emergency military response to secure the site. If Ukraine and Russia won't do it maybe we should just send our big bad selves in there to do it. We already fight everybody for no reason so at least we could do it for a good cause this time.

That's something that must have been seriously considered. The problem is that, however altruistic the reason it would be construed as an act of war.

If definitive proof of a missile strike can be found then investigations of the aircraft's actions/condition can be considered much less important than they would normally be. Naturally if meaningful FDR and CVR data can be recovered then we might know more about the aircraft's final moments but, in some ways, they're academic.

Naturally the priority is of course to recover the victims and what's left of their possessions and I wonder if some countries might have felt bound to take incursive action of more of their citizens had been on the flight.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Maybe it's the pilot in me but I think crash investigations are pretty important. I'm kind of surprised the EU or somebody hasn't simply initiated emergency military response to secure the site. If Ukraine and Russia won't do it maybe we should just send our big bad selves in there to do it. We already fight everybody for no reason so at least we could do it for a good cause this time.

That will only make things worse. By a whole order of magnitude. It's effectively declaring war on the Ukraine, and, in all likelihood, Russia.

Look at this from the separatists' point of view - with one breath, the west demands a full and impartial investigation, and with the next, they accuse of being complicit. The people directly responsible for bringing the plane down are probably long gone, and so those who are left behind probably feel that the west has already made up its mind as to guilt, and is only looking for evidence to confirm it (rather than formulating a theory of the crime based on evidence).

Any military intervention is only going to lead to further loss of life.

 

[Xilor]

@Dotini, Even if Ukraine did sit on the intelligence, it was painfully obvious that the rest of the world took notice of planes going down sub-32,000 ft. Most of the airlines that operate out of Europe that use that corridor rerouted to avoid the warzone. Malaysia airlines did not.

MH17 flew at an altitude that was unrestricted, and deemed safe by the Ukrainian ATC. In hindsight they should have obviously erred on the side of caution like many European airlines did, but I still believe the brunt of responsibility lies on the Ukrainian govt.'s shoulders. After all it is their airspace, that is monitored by them, and with the information they possessed on the rebels' air defense capabilities (information that is being fully released only now, and was not known by MA or anyone else at the time of the crash) they should have closed that airspace.

 

[Rage Racer]

First off, @Rage Racer, they didn't destroy the BUK that was used in the attack. All that was seen in the videos shown to the public so far that the BUK that was missing two missiles was simply moved back to Russia, nothing more.

But @mister dog claimed it was destroyed.
Besides, there are American satellites scanning the Russian-Ukrainian border (I'll ask my military consultant if they really could spot some Buk(s) moving) and OSCE mission in the Russian Donetsk town, which borders with Krasnodon where Ukrainians claim the separatists were carriyng a launcher. If they spotted a launcher, it would be known immidiately.

BTW, something about the "intecepted conversation". There's an audio track:

Every interlocutor has his own track, then - completely clean pause without any noises and the same "Yes, Major" (Da, mayor) on two tracks. The noise background of the second fragment differs, too.
In other words, the beginning is made of two mono tracks, then goes a stereo track. Trash.
****, they can't even make provocations properly. Won't be the first time Ukraine fakes evidence.

I'm kind of surprised the EU or somebody hasn't simply initiated emergency military response to secure the site.

This is what Ukraine was crying for - NATO intervention. If it happens, they'll gain what they wanted by downing the plane. (just one of my assumptions, I'm not claiming it 100% truth)

 

[Touring Mars]

And about the "intercepted conversation":

No sale. The person who published that is about as wacky as David Icke.

What is your source for the audio track that you claim is doctored?

 

[Dennisch]

One of the rebel leaders has come forward and stated that both FDR's are in his possession and he will give them to the investigators.

A bit of good news in all this crap.

 

[zzz_pt]

Separatists Said to Have Seized Control of Crash Victims’ Remains



http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/w...icmst=1388552400000&bicmet=1420088400000&_r=2

 

[Dennisch]

The US, John Kerry, now claims that they have footage of the launch and know where it came from.

 

[mister dog]

But @mister dog claimed it was destroyed.

Nope i think they are probably going to destroy it (or at least hide it if possible), didn't say it was destroyed:

For you @Rage Racer , how the BUK launcher got there, what happened and how the Russians are now busy probably covering the whole thing up (destroying the BUK and probably making the ones that fired it disappear):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lls-claim-PROVES-Russia-shot-Flight-MH17.html

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukra...defense-capabilities-say-officials-1405781508

Since western Ukraine knuckle-draggers knew the rebels had the Buk and didn't close their airspace, they may well have been hoping the eastern knuckle-draggers rebels would shoot down an airliner so they could pin blame on Putin and the separatist rebels.

Yeah i'm a bit wary with stories being spread from the Ukranians themselves now, as they desperately want to use this event for their own agenda and exaggerate a lot. But even if they did know and hoped something like this would happen, they aren't the idiots that actually pulled the trigger and shot down the plane.

 

[Rage Racer]

What is your source for the audio track that you claim is doctored?

Not a Putin-controlled source.
A guy from Kiev on VK, named Dmytro Dzygowbrodski posted info given to him (as he says) by another guy named Kerim Jemilev (a Crimean Tatar?).
http://vk.com/wall206013411_19839
I think it can be checked by anyone else using an appropriate program.

One of the rebel leaders has come forward and stated that both FDR's are in his possession and he will give them to the investigators.

A bit of good news in all this crap.

Borodai refuses to give the FDR's to Kiev (obviously) but agrees to give them to international investgators (as you say). Meanwhile, SBU "recorded" another "conversation" where separatists say they must not get to anyone else's hands ("OSCE and others").

Separatists Said to Have Seized Control of Crash Victims’ Remains

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/w...icmst=1388552400000&bicmet=1420088400000&_r=2

Well, I think it wasn't a good idea to leave the bodies decomposing at 30 C with civilians living around the area.

Yeah i'm a bit wary with stories being spread from the Ukranians themselves now, as they desperately want to use this event for their own agenda and exaggerate a lot. But even if they did know and hoped something like this would happen, they aren't the idiots that actually pulled the trigger and shot down the plane.

Why? They were the idiots to kill civilians in Luhansk.

 

[FoRiZon]

Separatists Said to Have Seized Control of Crash Victims’ Remains



http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/w...icmst=1388552400000&bicmet=1420088400000&_r=2

Mote confirmation that the pro-Russian militants accidentally launched a rocket to that plane.

If you think about it, theres absolutely no reason to rocketed an MALAYSIAN plane from NETHERLANDS to MALAYSIA, none of countries both Russia and Ukraine bothered. Its just an complete misunderstanding. I just pitcured Pro-Russian militants is now facepalmed and mumbled right now.

Hope for the safety for the survivors and RIP for who doesn't.

 

[Dennisch]

It was already pretty clear that those who fired the rocket cocked up big time.

Now it is up to Russia to step up and make sure that the rebels let the investigators do their work.

 

[Keef]

I was in support of the separatists. I feel like if a group of people want to break off and become something else they should be allowed to do that.

But what they're currently doing which is obstructing an international investigation that isn't related to military is ridiculous. There's no way that can help their cause. They need to cooperate fully and allow investigators in, possibly even providing security since the territory is contested.

 

[Rage Racer]

Mote confirmation that the pro-Russian militants accidentally launched a rocket to that plane.

It doesn't prove anything. What can bodies hide that may accuse the militia?

If you think about it, theres absolutely no reason to rocketed an MALAYSIAN plane from NETHERLANDS to MALAYSIA, none of countries both Russia and Ukraine bothered.

Ukraine does have a reason - to blame Novorossiya and Russia, display DPR as "murderers & terrorists" in Europe's eyes, stop some Europeans from sympathysing the rebels, provoke more sanctions on RF and even NATO intervention to Eastern Ukraine...

Hope for the safety for the survivors and RIP for who doesn't.

Unfortunately, there were no suvivors on the plane, but you may call survivors those civilians who were on the ground. And yes, they need safety, as they live in a war zone...

It was already pretty clear that those who fired the rocket cocked up big time.

Now it is up to Russia to step up and make sure that the rebels let the investigators do their work.

Nothing is clear yet.
The only clear thing is the missile firing the plane. But who did it - it's far not clear.
Russia has about the same amount of control of the rebels as US has on the rebels in Syria.

 

[Touring Mars]

What can bodies hide that may accuse the militia?

That should be for independent investigators to determine - why do you think pro-Russian militia are obstructing the investigation?

 

[IforceV8]

How much natural gas is located in the "occupied" region?

 

[Dennisch]

Nothing is clear yet.
The only clear thing is the missile firing the plane. But who did it - it's far not clear.
Russia has about the same amount of control of the rebels as US has on the rebels in Syria.

I don't know how the news is in Russia but here we get pretty clear signs that the rebels are backed up and supplied by Russia. Which is pretty easy to do since Russia is just across the border. Unlike Syria, where the rebels are fighting other rebels, and ISIS, and the government.

So, that is why Putin needs to put his goddamn foot down and make sure that this disaster can be solved and those responsible been brought to justice.

 

[FoRiZon]

Ukraine does have a reason - to blame Novorossiya and Russia, display DPR as "murderers & terrorists" in Europe's eyes, stop some Europeans from sympathysing the rebels, provoke more sanctions on RF and even NATO intervention to Eastern Ukraine...

So, of all the planes passed that area, they choose to shot completely unrelated to their motives? Also Ukraine was sponsoring pro-Russian militants all along? Nah I just stick to my theory. Besides im 100% sure they didn't want to mess with another countries at this point.

 

[Greycap]

So, that is why Putin needs to put his goddamn foot down and make sure that this disaster can be solved and those responsible been brought to justice.

In a "normal" situation that's what would happen. However, we're dealing with a situation in which it's entirely possible that the responsible ones are either in very close interaction with the Russians or even Russians themselves and you can guess if Putin wants to tell the entire world that 300 people are dead because what began as his "freedom operation" in Ukraine has got completely out of control. If the missile was launched by the Ukrainians, he'll be very vocal about it. If it has anything to do with the Russians we won't hear a word.

 

[mister dog]

Moment black box is recovered:

 

[Rage Racer]

That should be for independent investigators to determine - why do you think pro-Russian militia are obstructing the investigation?

First, as you know, they secure the site from looters. And it's obvious that they won't let everyone to the site. When investigators arrived, the rebels obviously did not let them immidiately - they requested an order from the higher command. The time that investigators had to wait before they could access the wreckage can be explained by communication problems.
Second, the bodies. If I was a local civilian, I would not like dead bodies to be left decomposing in my garden, I would ask the militia to remove them.
And third, rebels loading something into a dumptruck. Well, what they throw is something cardboard and paper. I doubt these things could help the investigation. Oh, honestly, I don't know. I wish I could contact one of them and ask. Maybe a part of the plane fell on a trash dump and they're sorting the trash out?..

I don't know how the news is in Russia but here we get pretty clear signs that the rebels are backed up and supplied by Russia. Which is pretty easy to do since Russia is just across the border. Unlike Syria, where the rebels are fighting other rebels, and ISIS, and the government.

So, that is why Putin needs to put his goddamn foot down and make sure that this disaster can be solved and those responsible been brought to justice.

The Russian news channels were denying any Russian backing of the separatists a month ago (they confirmed only volunteers from Russia, particulary Chechnya), now they just ignore it. If you think I easily believe 100% of my media you're wrong - I am aware that Novorossian fighters recieve some Russian equipment that could not be captured in Ukraine.
In Syria, the US do back the Free Syrian Army.

But "backing" doesn't mean "controlling", that's what I mean. I'm not sure that Novorossian leaders - Borodai/Pushilin/Girkin/etc - receive orders from Moscow. Not that I deny it, but it's not proven. They seem more like they command on their own.

So, of all the planes passed that area, they choose to shot completely unrelated to their motives? Also Ukraine was sponsoring pro-Russian militants all along? Nah I just stick to my theory. Besides im 100% sure they didn't want to mess with another countries at this point.

It is related. It had a lot of European citizens on board - it is Europe they wanted to get obsessed (and there was some wrong info about American citizens on board - to obsess the US as well).
I did not say "Ukraine sponsored pro-Russian militants", you're confusing something.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It doesn't prove anything. What can bodies hide that may accuse the militia?

The contents of missiles, perhaps.

I would have thought that any "sanitising", if it were genuinely taking place, would be getting rid of as many missile fragments or explosive traces as they can find.

That said, I think this case has surely gone beyond such efforts. It could be that they're not hiding the bodies but in fact undertaking what they see as a mission of some kind of respect, simply unaware of the gravity of their continued actions.