MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.

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Russia's Goliath
Since you're so afraid of Russia, you won't have a problem abrogating your existing nuclear arms treaty with them and to resume the basing of US nuclear weapons aimed at Russia upon your island.
http://news.antiwar.com/2015/06/07/...uld-be-stationed-in-britain-to-target-russia/

I well recall the panic digging of fallout shelters in back yards and the practice of "duck and cover" drills in my elementary school back in 50's Texas. We lived within sight of a Strategic Air Command base (Dyess AFB). Do you have atomic war attack drills for the school children in Britain? Do you dig your own shelters (graves), or do you plan on descending to the tubes when the sirens begin to wail?
 
Since you're so afraid of Russia, you won't have a problem abrogating your existing nuclear arms treaty with them and to resume the basing of US nuclear weapons aimed at Russia upon your island.
http://news.antiwar.com/2015/06/07/...uld-be-stationed-in-britain-to-target-russia/

I well recall the panic digging of fallout shelters in back yards and the practice of "duck and cover" drills in my elementary school back in 50's Texas. We lived within sight of a Strategic Air Command base (Dyess AFB). Do you have atomic war attack drills for the school children in Britain? Do you dig your own shelters (graves), or do you plan on descending to the tubes when the sirens begin to wail?

I think you misunderstood me; I'm not afraid of Russia?

We did indeed have nuke drills when I was a child, and that was in the 1980s. I don't think for a minute that a nuclear war wouldn't be an awful, terrible thing - but that's one of the reasons that I support the holding of equivalent deterrents in this less-than-ideal world.

I'm not clear on what that has to do with David (a small, crowd-funded journalistic analysis group the size of a provincial newspaper) taking Goliath (Russia's state organisation with all its resources) to task over the apparent faking of photographic evidence in the case of MH17?
 
Der Spiegel has backed off from Bellingcat. Will @TenEightyOne do as well?

No, and here's why;

Der Spiegel (masters of shock-jockery) say that they only wish they had written two sentences differently, they aren't pulling back from Bellingcat by any means. That's in your link. The link that says that they're dropping the whole thing (Phil's report) actually shows no such thing on examination. They do however say

Phil's Report
The MH17 flight crashed on July 17, 2014. Western media rushed to blame not only pro-Russian militias, but, incredibly, President Putin himself. All without a shred of evidence.
Der Spiegel joined this astonishing finger-pointing craze on July 29 when it published its infamous "Stop Putin Now" front cover, with the pictures of the MH17 crash victims in the background.

They hardly seem to be taking a very balanced line there.

Der Spiegel quote Professor Kriese as saying that "no paper has ever been written on ELA", but don't explain why he'd think one should have been? The technique doesn't require special skills or advanced software and has been around for years.

If you go through the Bellingcat publication in detail it makes a very convincing read. I don't think Bellingcat are saying that they're the only people who've performed such analysis on the pictures but, to my knowledge, they're the only people who've published results.
 
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The countries involved in the crash, the Netherlands, Malaysia, Australia, Belgium and Ukraine have asked the UN for a independent tribunal to find and trial those responsible.

And of course, Russia doesn’t like the plan.
So this will be vetoed before it happens.

Stay classy, Russia, stay classy.
 
The countries involved in the crash, the Netherlands, Malaysia, Australia, Belgium and Ukraine have asked the UN for a independent tribunal to find and trial those responsible.

And of course, Russia doesn’t like the plan.
So this will be vetoed before it happens.

Stay classy, Russia, stay classy.
Normally, an investigation is completed before a tribunal.

How is the investigation coming along?
 
The investigation is not yet finished, but we already want a tribunal. 'Cause we already know who did it, without any investigation. :rolleyes:
 
It's weird that there's been no mention of this down here, given that getting tough on others is Abbott's favourite way of boosting his popularity. He's been cracking down on his opponents, the media, clean energy and refugees of late, so maybe he's worried that Russia can fight back.
 
If you think Russia @Rage Racer is so innocent.
Can you explain why they gave faked photos.
An innocent country wouldn't give faked photos or try to hamper an investigation, but help so the real people can't be brought to justice.
 
The investigation is not yet finished, but we already want a tribunal. 'Cause we already know who did it, without any investigation. :rolleyes:

Bureaucracy will prevent the tribunal to start before the investigation is finished. That's why they now have started with the process.

Why is Russia so against having a tribunal to find the culprits? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Russia itself who shot the plane down.
 
If you think Russia @Rage Racer is so innocent.
Can you explain why they gave faked photos.
Where?

Why is Russia so against having a tribunal to find the culprits?
Churkin explained it (you've failed to mention that) by the fact that Russia is not being allowed to work on the investigation properly. Some data requested by RF - images from NATO satellites, data from an AVACS plane that was flying close to that area - still has not been revealed.

And, if you're unaware, tribunal is about punishing the culprits, not finding them. They're already trying to find them, it's been almost a year.
 
Russia isn't involved in this crash, apart from maybe delivering the machinery, as far as it goes now. It happened in Ukraine, with a Malaysian airplane, involving citizens from several countries, but non from Russia.

But since Russia is a major weapon supplier to a lot of conflicts, just as the USA and several other nations, that's something you can't avoid, or hold Russia accountable for. If Russia gets the blame for this for supplying the weapon, the UN should go after all those other supplying nations too, because the world is full of conflicts where innocent people die.
 
The grayscale image that was from google earth of the "Ukraine" fighter jet firing a "missle" at MH17
Ah, that?
Well, a news channel picked up a half-a-year old image from some random internet forum, and none of the Russian officials claimed it as an evidence for the investigation... But you just simply say "Russia faked photos". Seriously?

If I open the 'Shop and draw something similar, will it count, too?
 
When a righteous people
What were your thoughts on the Bellingcat analysis of the pictures that were available on official Russian sites?

Bellingcat appears to be little more than partisan hobbyists lobbing in grenades against their enemies de jour.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...known-info-in-op.313587/page-39#post-10852297
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Bellingcat says its findings are based on the use of the analysis tool FotoForensic.com, a website.

Kriese: And its founder Neal Krawetz also distanced himself from Bellingcat's conclusions on Twitter. He described it as a good example of "how to not do image analysis." What Bellingcat is doing is nothing more than reading tea leaves. Error Level Analysis is a method used by hobbyists.
 
Let's wait what the official investigation party has to say, because Internet ruins pretty much everything it gets it hands on.

Edit.

Just in.
Russia will definitely block an UN tribunal with their veto right.

*clap. *clap. *clap.
 
Let's wait what the official investigation party has to say, because Internet ruins pretty much everything it gets it hands on.

Edit.

Just in.
Russia will definitely block an UN tribunal with their veto right.

*clap. *clap. *clap.
In an Alice in Wonderland world, in Bizarro-land, or Lost Carcosa, punishment precedes the crime.
 
Bellingcat says its findings are based on the use of the analysis tool FotoForensic.com, a website.

Kriese: And its founder Neal Krawetz also distanced himself from Bellingcat's conclusions on Twitter. He described it as a good example of "how to not do image analysis." What Bellingcat is doing is nothing more than reading tea leaves. Error Level Analysis is a method used by hobbyists.

Fair enough. I stand by the method as credible when used properly. Hard to ignore the comments of Dr. Krawetz in thise case... I formally withdraw all my support for the Bellingcat "analysis" :D
 
What were your thoughts on the Bellingcat analysis of the pictures that were available on official Russian sites?
Well... I can't disprove it on my own, but there are many other 'couch analysts' on the net for the both sides so you never know who to believe. And I'm not in the mood to become another one.
Hm, and I see^, the question is now closed.

Just in.
Russia will definitely block an UN tribunal with their veto right.

*clap. *clap. *clap.
I think this is reasonable, since the investigation, besides being unfinished (one may think, the sentence is already written), doesn't seem neutral. If our Western partners doubt the geniunity of the Russian MoD satellite images, why don't they show their own?
 
why don't they show their own?

I'll give you that. The USA was one of the first to claim to have spotted something on their satellite imagery. It soon went silent and up to this day nothing has been shown.

That could be because of the investigation of course.
 
I'll give you that. The USA was one of the first to claim to have spotted something on their satellite imagery. It soon went silent and up to this day nothing has been shown.

That could be because of the investigation of course.
Every realist knows not to confuse people with facts when their mind is already fixed on the desired result.
 
Doesn't matter what the outcome of the report is, it's bound to piss some people off.

I wonder, could this become a case for the International Court in the Hague?

Edit.

From CNN:

It's been nearly one year since 298 people were killed after a commercial passenger plane broke up over the Ukraine.

U.S. officials concluded Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was struck by a missile and shot out of the sky. A final report from investigators has yet to be released but CNN has learned new details from the draft investigative report for the July 17, 2014 incident.

Dutch accident investigators say that evidence points to pro-Russian rebels as being responsible for shooting down MH-17, according to a source who has seen the report.

The Malaysian Airlines flight went down in the Donetsk area of Ukraine. According to two sources with knowledge of the investigation, a draft of an investigative report authored by the Dutch Safety Board, the lead agency in the investigation, has been distributed for review to numerous agencies around the world including the National Transportation Safety Board, Federal Aviation Administration and Boeing.

The draft investigative report is several hundred pages long. According to one source close to the investigation the draft report included the exact type of missile used to bring down MH17 and the trajectory of the missile.

Another source with knowledge of the report's details says it gives a minute by minute timeline of flight MH17. This source also says not only does the draft report pinpoint where the missile was fired from it identifies who was in control of the territory and pins the downing of MH17 on the pro-Russian rebels.

According to both sources, the report also pins some blame on Malaysia Airlines for how its planes were dispatched that day.

Some airlines were avoiding the conflict zone. According to the report Malaysia Airlines was not reading other countries' notice to airmen or NOTAMs and it continued to fly over the zone. Notice to airmen or NOTAMs are written notifications issued to pilots before a flight, advising them of circumstances relating to the state of flying, and those notifications can include warnings of potential dangers like conflict zones.

U.S. Airline Carriers for example make decisions about where to fly and where not to fly based on notice to airmen (NOTAMs) that different countries issue to their pilots. If for example, based on intelligence, Britain warned its pilots to avoid flying over a certain country U.S. Carriers would read and consider those warnings and decide if they too will avoid the area.

The Dutch Safety Board is investigating the crash of flight MH17 but it is also investigating the decision-making process pertaining to safety when determining flight routes.

Dutch investigators say in their report that because Malaysia airlines didn't review other countries' warnings it was unaware of conflict zones other airlines were avoiding. Sources who have seen the report say the Dutch Safety Board suggests Malaysia Airlines didn't have a robust system like other carriers.

The NTSB leads the group of accredited representatives in the investigation which also includes FAA and Boeing.

The standard process under international aviation law (ICAO annex 13) is to allow investigative parties to review the draft report to look for inaccuracies or any other discrepancies. Agencies like the NTSB will submit suggested changes/comments on behalf of its agency as well as FAA. The NTSB is currently in its final stages of putting together comments.

The final report is expected to be competed and published in the first half of October 2015.

CNN has requested comment from the NTSB, FAA, Boeing and the Dutch Safety Board.

CNN has also attempted to reach representatives for Malaysia Airlines.

In an email an FAA spokeswoman said the agency could not comment.

The Dutch safety board told CNN "we will not comment on the confidential draft final report" and the NTSB said in an email "The NTSB does not comment on an investigation that the Board is not the lead investigative agency."

 
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Some airlines were avoiding the conflict zone. According to the report Malaysia Airlines was not reading other countries' notice to airmen or NOTAMs and it continued to fly over the zone. Notice to airmen or NOTAMs are written notifications issued to pilots before a flight, advising them of circumstances relating to the state of flying, and those notifications can include warnings of potential dangers like conflict zones.

There was no high-altitude NOTAM for the region, and US carriers didn't avoid it until a NOTAM was issued two days after the fact. The NOTAM that was in place at the time of MH17's loss was for 32k feet and below, not for airline cruise altitudes.

If in fact there was a relevant NOTAM in place at the time then it wasn't reported by any of the official bodies or airlines.
 
Just watched News - Vesti (Вести) on Russian TV (Россия РТР)
They said that specialists collected all the photos of the downed airplane and made a 3D model of the aircraft. In short, they decided that it could be an Israeli air-to-air missile- Python. Igor Koretchenko (Military expert, main editor of "National Guard" journal) said that Georgia has modified Su-25 that can carry these missiles.

Here's a link to the specialist's Livejournal- LINK

They also think that "Almaz-Antey" could be wrong with their BUK missile version.

Another version to the growing list.
 
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Relatives of 18 crash victims have sued Igor Girgin (Stelkov) for $900 million.

They hold him responsible for the crash.

Exclusive: Igor Girkin formally accused of orchestrating the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines flight in east Ukraine
Igor Girkin, the leader of Russian separatist forces in eastern Ukraine, was on Wednesday formally accused of orchestrating the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines flight, MH17, in July last year.

A writ filed in Chicago also alleges that Mr Girkin was acting with the blessing of the Kremlin when his forces fired at the Boeing 777 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

The case has been brought on behalf of the families of 18 of the passengers on board the aircraft, including six Britons.

They are claiming a total of $900 million (£575 million).

In all 298 people died when a missile was fired at the aircraft as it flew over eastern Ukraine.

Attention focused on Mr Girkin after a Russian social media page, with which his group was linked, claimed responsibility for taking out a Ukrainian An-26, adding, “We warned them - don’t fly in our sky.”

The post, which was swiftly removed, led to accusations that Mr Girkin’s militiamen could have brought down the Boeing 777 by mistake.

However the Donetsk People’s Republic has always denied responsibility for the MH17 disaster.

This has been challenged by the court papers in Chicago which claimed: “Flight 17 flew over the airspace of the area in which the aforesaid rebel army was waging its war activities and the rebel army under the command responsibility of defendant Girkin shot down the subject Boeing 777-200 aircraft.”

Mr Girkin, it added: “ordered, aided and/or abetted this action and/or conspired with those persons who fired the missile or missiles.”

Myroslava Reginskaya, a spokesman for Igor Girkin, who also goes by the non-de-guerre Igor Strelkov, said the former commander would not be responding to the allegations.

"We have no comment to make and we will not be making a comment in this situation. If these people are idiots then they are idiots," she said.

The writ also alleged that individuals under his command “took responsibility” for shooting down the aircraft.

In addition the writ accused the Kremlin of being complicit in the atrocity.

It said the missile which brought down the aircraft came from Russia to the Ukraine.

“Defendant Girkin acted with the actual or apparent authority of individuals in the Government of Russia,” the lawsuit added.

Floyd Wisner, the lawyer who has instigated the action, has used the US Torture Victim Protection Act, which can be used against foreign nationals, to bring a case against Mr Girkin in an American court.

“It is not about money, it is about getting answers from Girkin and putting pressure on Russia to co-operate with the international tribunal,” Mr Wisner said.
There is no cost to the families. We are doing this as a service to them and they want some answers and they don’t want to be forgotten,” he added.

A case has also been lodged against Malaysia Airlines on behalf of Reine Dalziel, whose husband Cameron was killed in the crash.

It is alleged that the carrier was negligent in plotting a route over eastern Ukraine. At the time it was an “internationally recognised conflict zone” over which US airlines had been banned from flying.

It was also being avoided by other major international carriers, including British Airways.

The claim has been submitted on his behalf, because Mr Dalziel had bought the plane ticket in the US.

Malaysia Airlines declined to comment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...er-sued-for-900-million-by-crash-victims.html
 
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