Microsoft Cuts Forza Motorsport’s Development Staff by “Nearly 50%”

[SimTourist]

FM2 was completely different than FM3, there's no real comparing them. FM3 was pretty much a rebrand of the entire franchise, and I feel it took the franchise to its overly polished, commercialized death.

Yeah the clean white menus were a departure from the grunge look and feel of FM1-2

 

[Tornado]

They were probably the most inspired titles in the respective series, but honestly I'd much rather play FM23 than FM4 (although I wouldn't say the same about Gran Turismo - perhaps this stems from the fact that Forza was never a very inspired series to start with).

Of course, this is largely a consequence of technology marching on - but on the other hand, how much of the universal praise bestowed upon FM4 is a result of nostalgia? And how much the large and lively community surrounding the game, and the relative weakness of its main competitor at the time (Gran Turismo 5 is generally considered the nadir for the GT series, as far as I know) helped a game that was ultimately not all that impressive from a technical or content standpoint punch well above its weight? Or, in short: was Forza Motorsport 4 really a better game than FM23, or did it just have better vibes?

If Forza 4 had been put on PC I probably wouldn't have bothered trying 6 and certainly never would have wasted my money buying 7. I don't particularly care if the handling model is better if the game itself takes a bunch of steps back.

this was far from an unpopular opinion in the FM3 and FM4 days. So even if the answer to my questions is a resounding "no", I don't think the opinion that FM4 was "the peak of Forza" was as universal back then as some people remember.

I was on this forum when Forza 4 came out. It was the first game I ever saw where the Gran Turismo fanboys started resorting to just lying about the competition to make their game look better. Bald faced, blatant lies for years from people like Zer0 and maxpontiac and Tenacious D and all sorts of people who only set foot outside of the GT forum to come into this one to pick fights. I think it stands to some level of reason that FM4 was the game that finally was considered a real threat, and frankly probably the only one considering how quickly the series faceplanted right after even as PD did their goofy dalliance pretending that they were iRacing.









And GT6 was always a much worse game than GT5 was; and especially so now.

 

[danimac]

Oof. That’s a shame.

 

[Meythia]

tech is going to get rocked super hard with AI around the corner.

That is nothing gamers should allow.
Which means voting with your wallet (dropping gamepass AND free games) and not buying any game that was created at large with the help of AI, because it comes with quality drop on all edges be it graphics, story, or just simply consistency.
AI is not consistent, AI is noise that tries to make sense and guesses what sense means to humans.
And just sometimes it looks somewhat acceptable.

 

[sirjim73]

I think it's more due to a new fiscal year starting on July 1st and they need to make cuts to justify the huge amounts of money spent on buying Bethesda and Blizzard, huge investments into AI that haven't paid off yet, and slow adoption of Windows 11. T10 doesn't exist in a vaccuum within Micros~1's hierarchy and they also laid off another 9,000 employees elsewhere in the company about the same time, and I expect more axes will be falling elsewhere in the next few days.

As an accountant, this is precisely the reason for this happening now. Under accruals accounting, if you create an expectation of redundancies pre year end (30 June) you can accrue for the redundancy costs even if the actual redundancies don't happen until July. They have "banked" all the costs/"financial bad news" in last year, which they hope means a clean year 25/26 with none of the costs included and none of those ongoing salaries either.

I can't wait to see all the AA indie games that come out from laid-off people who go out and start their own studio.

With the audio done by Mike Caviezel

 

[AudiMan2011]

That is nothing gamers should allow.
Which means voting with your wallet (dropping gamepass AND free games) and not buying any game that was created at large with the help of AI, because it comes with quality drop on all edges be it graphics, story, or just simply consistency.
AI is not consistent, AI is noise that tries to make sense and guesses what sense means to humans.
And just sometimes it looks somewhat acceptable.

Game quality was already nosediving even before AI

 

[Nakano219]

I can't wait to see all the AA indie games that come out from laid-off people who go out and start their own studio.

This never actually happens, unfortunately.

Whether the scenario is after a buyout or layoffs, the senior devs always seem to try and build an AAA studio, because it's often all they've ever known. And unless you are literally Hideo Kojima, doing so almost inevitably means you get over-ambitious and run out of funding before you ever ship a game.

 

[Meythia]

Game quality was already nosediving even before AI

Is that a reason for voluntarily being part of accelerating it even further?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

 

[GTvsForza]

Yeah, definitely scared now...

 

[UKMikey]

I tend to prefer driving simulators to walking (or web-slinging) simulators so racing games are more my thing. One of the innovations I appreciate most about FM '23 is the way that they give you marks out of ten for each bend like figure skating judges holding up score cards. This incentivises me to improve my cornering technique so I can try to beat the only remaining opponent after passing the rest of the field which is, of course, the clock.

The fact that, unlike Horizon, this takes place on real world tracks as well as fantasy tracks means that I can take those skills with me into other sims. For this reason I'll remember this game for a long time, whatever happens to the series.

Watching the replays from the pov of the car behind me with "distance to leader" switched on seems to indicate that the latest AI gets more competitive the better I drive by using faster racing lines which also helps keeps me on my toes.

 

[sirjim73]

This never actually happens, unfortunately.

Whether the scenario is after a buyout or layoffs, the senior devs always seem to try and build an AAA studio, because it's often all they've ever known. And unless you are literally Hideo Kojima, doing so almost inevitably means you get over-ambitious and run out of funding before you ever ship a game.

cough Project Motor Racing cough... just for one example. Many of the Team for The Crew including senior level came from the ashes of TDU2.

View attachment 1462475

Well, that's pretty clear and unequivocal.
In terms of any new content, it's not coming.
I still think the other previous Featured Tours will return over the next 2 years but that can probably be done using minimal input from the Horizon side employees or Live Service employees at PG itself.

I also think this surely means this is the end of the FM franchise, when FM23 finally sunsets that will be it? I don't see how you can logically make any other conclusion after reading that comment?

 

[Draugnimir]

If anyone's interested, I compiled a list of all 150+ people associated with Turn 10 Studios at LinkedIn to determine what happened with them, what positions are left and what are chances that this remaining crew could keep supporting the game:



If not for that sad post from Fred Russell, I'd still believe that T10 can take the route of some AA developers (or smaller, like Reiza Studios) and adopt a different workflow to keep developing the game with smaller but more focused team.

 

[phillgt2002]

Bald faced, blatant lies for years from people like Zer0 and maxpontiac and Tenacious D

You literally have names from that time

But I remember those times. Even then, there was something that FM4, or FM games in general, lacked that GT had. I can’t really put my finger on it.

 

[Aphelion]

Game quality was already nosediving even before AI

I recommend looking outside of the ""AAA"" games industry. This is kinda like saying "modern music sucks" when you only listen to pop hit radio stations.


What a sad state the "AAA" industry is in. Literally thousands of peoples livelihoods lost to corporate greed and stupidity. Shaking my head.

 

[UKMikey]

You literally have names from that time

But I remember those times. Even then, there was something that FM4, or FM games in general, lacked that GT had. I can’t really put my finger on it.

Wonky frame rate?

 

[ClydeYellow]

I recommend looking outside of the ""AAA"" games industry. This is kinda like saying "modern music sucks" when you only listen to pop hit radio stations.


What a sad state the "AAA" industry is in. Literally thousands of peoples livelihoods lost to corporate greed and stupidity. Shaking my head.

Alas, unlike music, where anything but Čajkovskij's Ouverture 1812 can be realized with relatively affordable means, certain kind of videogames require developers with rather deep pockets, and racing sims featuring an encyclopedic amount of licensed content certainly top that list.

But besides that, there's a fact that ties with some of the discussion we were having previously: it used to be that you found out about that undiscovered gem the press didn't even bother reviewing because you stumbled upon a thread of enthusiastic supporters on a forum, or maybe one of your favorite Youtubers started a LP; but the Internet I grew up with has replaced by the increasingly-en****tified algorithms of soulless corporate platforms, and the mindless regurgitators of drivel who churn out content for a passive audience in the hope Sir Lord Sundar Pichai's minions will let them eat the scraps that fall off their table.
Hell, in a rather poignant example I found out Signalis existed only because lorexplainer slop started popping up in my Youtube feed, how sad is that?

This may well be one of the last bastions of an Internet not dominated by some multinational trying to sell your ad clicks to another multinational. The days of the online community are gone; in their place, the network, a model we all embraced without realizing what we were throwing away. The obsession with networks and engagement and whatever other ******** word some Silicon Valley puke is putting on slides these days is a product of the other mega-trends that caused the decline of Forza we were hitherto discussing, while at the same time greatly accelerating said decline by destroying what truly made FM4 a great game.

Whatever, I'll go be a moody prick somewhere else.

 

[Aphelion]

Alas, unlike music, where anything but Čajkovskij's Ouverture 1812 can be realized with relatively affordable means, certain kind of videogames require developers with rather deep pockets, and racing sims featuring an encyclopedic amount of licensed content certainly top that list.

This is a really good point! Although, I still think the AAA industry being massively over-inflated is a large part of the problem, as evidenced by the fact that despite the insanely ballooned budgets of video games in the last 10 years or so (particularly since the HD generation began), all the games we remember so fondly are from before this time. Surely we can have great car games that don't require the absolute cutting edge of technology.

The internet falling into a state of apocalypse is another story 😂. I agree, its hard to see any kind of return to what made the internet so great in the past, and I think its basically entirely due to the privatisation of it all, and soon it will be 99% bots and AI generated garbage. It’s depressing honestly.

I sometimes wonder why I keep coming back to GTP after all these years, but you're right; it really is one of the last places on the internet that Still functions more or less like the good old days.

 

[MroczMR]

Well… It seems they are going to be…

Build from the ground…

 

[RACECAR]

View attachment 1462475

Welp. Just from reading this, looks like its exactly what I was thinking might happen: Horizon IS the Forza name bearer while Motorsport is no more.

 

[RobertHammer]

its a shame what happened and Motorsport probably didnt do well enough so Forza Horizon takes over

 

[Imari]

Of course, this is largely a consequence of technology marching on - but on the other hand, how much of the universal praise bestowed upon FM4 is a result of nostalgia?

Almost all of it. Almost none of the historically "great" games in any genre are actually great by modern standards, it's just that they were so far ahead of the competition at the time that they made an impact.

Original FF7 was an astonishing game at the time, but by modern standards it's a chore to play and to look at. GT4 was head and shoulders beyond anything that could be reasonably expected of the PS2 generation. FM4 was the same for the X360/PS3 generation. But by modern standards they're mediocre at best - all they've got going for them is a large car and track list and almost every other aspect is substandard compared to any modern game.

If I had to be trapped on an island with one racing game, I'd pick GT7 or FM23 over GT4 or FM4. But GT4/FM4 were better games, and GT7/FM23 are just more semi-live service dreck trying to use old names to stay relevant. GT7 has at least made kind of a niche for itself in the photography area, but FM23 is just a mediocre racing game that happens to have almost no direct competition on a bunch of platforms.

I have respect for GT4 and FM4 and what they were trying to do with those games. I have respect for GT5 too, I just think it kind of flopped when it came to the actual execution of what they were trying to do. With more modern games I feel that the drive to build something that milks the players for money mostly wins out over the drive to build something that is fun. Not that there isn't fun still to be had, but it clearly wasn't the primary design goal. Fun is incidental after you've checked off all the boxes on the marketing blurb and got some solid methods to "maintain player numbers" and squeeze some MTX out of them.

IMO, Forza Motorsport and Gran Turismo can quietly drift off into the sunset until someone has something worth contributing to the genre. We don't need the same game being pumped out over and over again with shinier graphics and worse career modes. Bring them back in 10 years with some fresh ideas. Until then I'm more interested in seeing what Kunos can contribute with AC Evo.

But I remember those times. Even then, there was something that FM4, or FM games in general, lacked that GT had. I can’t really put my finger on it.

Standard cars.

But if I'm not being snarky, GT has a certain style to it's presentation. So does FM and that's pretty much all it is. Presentation style doesn't make a game better or worse in a general sense. A racing game with classical music and overblown HDR isn't really any different from a racing game with rock music and boosted contrast, it's just different flavours.

 

[Carpocalypse]

I've heard a rumour (and I emphasise this is a rumour) that according to this thread A former T10 (Whom left in 2016, but apparently takes care of Jon Shirley's car collection, so he may have connections still) that T10 may be relegated to a support studio for Playground Games.

I'm not going to believe it until I see actual proof, but If it is true, I believe we'll see the last updates to FM in the next few months or year maybe.

 

[Meythia]

require developers with rather deep pockets

No.

There are real masterpieces put together by rather small teams with more believe in their vision than skills, and with a budget that in terms of a corporate could fill a single contracted employe for monthes.

e.g Balatro already went black numbers 1h after its release. Too bad graphics?
Kena?
Stray?


Stop thinking only cash can create something good, most often it is reverse (yes, subjectively speaking, but sales numbers are not lying).

 

[sirjim73]

View attachment 1462475

This is a really good point! Although, I still think the AAA industry being massively over-inflated is a large part of the problem, as evidenced by the fact that despite the insanely ballooned budgets of video games in the last 10 years or so (particularly since the HD generation began), all the games we remember so fondly are from before this time. Surely we can have great car games that don't require the absolute cutting edge of technology.

The internet falling into a state of apocalypse is another story 😂. I agree, its hard to see any kind of return to what made the internet so great in the past, and I think its basically entirely due to the privatisation of it all, and soon it will be 99% bots and AI generated garbage. It’s depressing honestly.

I sometimes wonder why I keep coming back to GTP after all these years, but you're right; it really is one of the last places on the internet that Still functions more or less like the good old days.

Thank Christ for

I've heard a rumour (and I emphasise this is a rumour) that according to this thread A former T10 (Whom left in 2016, but apparently takes care of Jon Shirley's car collection, so he may have connections still) that T10 may be relegated to a support studio for Playground Games.

I'm not going to believe it until I see actual proof, but If it is true, I believe we'll see the last updates to FM in the next few months or year maybe.

That rumour comes from Fred Russell's post quoted above.

 

[PJTierney]

If anyone's interested, I compiled a list of all 150+ people associated with Turn 10 Studios at LinkedIn to determine what happened with them, what positions are left and what are chances that this remaining crew could keep supporting the game:



If not for that sad post from Fred Russell, I'd still believe that T10 can take the route of some AA developers (or smaller, like Reiza Studios) and adopt a different workflow to keep developing the game with smaller but more focused team.

It's pretty brutal when it's listed out like that

Looks like pretty much every department got hit and some got nuked entirely.

 

[SPDN Stefano]

Wasn't "Turn 10 Studios" a revolving door type company made up of temporary employees anyway? There is no way they would have beaten Gran Turismo doing business that way.

 

[Draugnimir]

It's pretty brutal when it's listed out like that

Looks like pretty much every department got hit and some got nuked entirely.

Yes, I don't like the looks of it either...

However, with some sound designers or environment artists left at the studio, I still have a glimmer of hope that some sort of support for Forza Motorsport could be maintained.

 

[AudiMan2011]

I think comparisons with the saga of Driveclub would be apt to describe FM23. Even though T10 have been doing a herculean effort to improve the game since its bad launch, it still wasn't enough to save them from being thrown on the scrapheap like Evolution Studios

 

[Forzilla]

If anyone's interested, I compiled a list of all 150+ people associated with Turn 10 Studios at LinkedIn to determine what happened with them, what positions are left and what are chances that this remaining crew could keep supporting the game:



If not for that sad post from Fred Russell, I'd still believe that T10 can take the route of some AA developers (or smaller, like Reiza Studios) and adopt a different workflow to keep developing the game with smaller but more focused team.

I don't realize too much about game production, but why Turn 10 have so many "producers"?