Mid-Engined Cars & Oversteer

[PrivatePoop]

I'd like to tune my mid-engined cars (starting with a blue Ferrari F430) to stop sweeping out from under me. I've decided to start with the Suzuka event in the S-Class tier (I think it's GT-All Stars).

When I slow down and go to enter that first right turn, the car occasionally spins out on entry, but I'm pretty much guaranteed to lose control by the exit of the turn. What the hell is going on? I'm certain I'm driving at least decently, I've got a DFGT wheel and the F430 should not be that difficult a drive (when set up properly).

I wanna make sure I've got the right idea of how suspension settings impact the car:

Spring Rates negate weight transfer. For example, a stiffer front end will shift forward-moving weight in a car back towards the rear of the car.
Ride Height shifts the car's center of gravity. The lower, the more responsive, but the greater a risk of bottoming out (I've avoided lowering it for precisely that reason).
Camber tilts the top of the wheel inward to the car, tuning guides recommend against touching this feature and I more than believe them.


These two settings are the most problematic for me (I think):
Damper adjusts the suspension's inertia (tendency to resume its normal position). How does this impact cornering ability?
Toe-In/Out is the inward or outward alignment of the wheels. This had a magical ability of fixing handling issues in GT4 (more or less). The problem is how confusing this setting is; I downloaded the GT4 tuning guide and it seems to contradict the advice GT5P's tuning menu gives (which says + for toe-in, - for toe-out). Can someone clarify this for me (or at least confirm that this is a helluva lot more confusing than it ever should have been)?

Thanks for the read.

 

[HaylRayzor]

Read Scaff’s tuning guides carefully. They answer all your questions.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=104034

I'd like to tune my mid-engined cars (starting with a blue Ferrari F430) to stop sweeping out from under me. I've decided to start with the Suzuka event in the S-Class tier (I think it's GT-All Stars).

When I slow down and go to enter that first right turn, the car occasionally spins out on entry, but I'm pretty much guaranteed to lose control by the exit of the turn. What the hell is going on? I'm certain I'm driving at least decently, I've got a DFGT wheel and the F430 should not be that difficult a drive (when set up properly).
Things that can help lift-off oversteer: Crank in more positive rear camber. And turn on ABS if you have it off. Brake hard as you come up to the corner, but ease off the brakes as you turn in. Keep a little throttle on while you're braking to prevent unloading the rear tires. Never lift completely in a corner, again to avoid unloading the rear tires. Believe it or not more throttle will stop a slide in a MR car, when it might seem that less throttle is the thing to do.

I wanna make sure I've got the right idea of how suspension settings impact the car:

Spring Rates negate weight transfer. For example, a stiffer front end will shift forward-moving weight in a car back towards the rear of the car.
Springs do not negate weight transfer. Dampers have an effect on weight transfer. Stiffer dampers will slow weight transfer on acceleration, braking, and cornering.

Ride Height shifts the car's center of gravity. The lower, the more responsive, but the greater a risk of bottoming out (I've avoided lowering it for precisely that reason).
Bottoming is not a problem in GT5P unless you use very low settings with soft springs. Don’t be afraid to lower. Just use a bit stiffer springs and dampers.

Camber tilts the top of the wheel inward to the car, tuning guides recommend against touching this feature and I more than believe them.
I don’t know what tuning guide says not to touch camber but Scaff’s tells you how to adjust camber and what effect those adjustments will have. Almost all cars in GT5P benefit from some additional camber.

These two settings are the most problematic for me (I think):
Damper adjusts the suspension's inertia (tendency to resume its normal position). How does this impact cornering ability?
If you use stiffer dampers to slow the weight transfer on cornering then you will in effect have a stiffer spring for turn-in than you will mid-corner. For instance, you might want the rear to rotate on turn-in, then grip more mid-corner. For this you can stiffen the rear dampers. There are other effects to doing this, such as your car won’t hook up as well when you pick up the throttle because the stiffer rear dampers will act like stiffer springs in the rear for a short time.

Toe-In/Out is the inward or outward alignment of the wheels. This had a magical ability of fixing handling issues in GT4 (more or less). The problem is how confusing this setting is; I downloaded the GT4 tuning guide and it seems to contradict the advice GT5P's tuning menu gives (which says + for toe-in, - for toe-out). Can someone clarify this for me (or at least confirm that this is a helluva lot more confusing than it ever should have been)?
This is a bit complicated for a short answer (all tuning is complicated for a short answer) but Scaff explains it well. Again, read Scaff’s tuning guides.

Thanks for the read.

 

[NLxAROSA]

You can't get rid of that behavior from a MR car completely. The answer is in your driving style. If you do not apply enough throttle (or even release it a bit) on exit, you'll lose it for sure. This applies to the F430, but more so the California and Ford GT. I found this happens most on entering turn 1 and Degner.

This effect has become more pronounced after the last update. I suffered the same problem when tuning the California. At first I thought it was the car, but the GT '06 did exactly the same. It bit me in the ass time after time. Reports from other (faster) drivers indicated the car was fine. After watching some replays I noticed I braked too late and let go of the throttle inside the turn. Adapting my driving style not only fixed the problem, but improved my laptimes.

 

[Gaviao_pt]

Toe-In/Out is the inward or outward alignment of the wheels. This had a magical ability of fixing handling issues in GT4 (more or less). The problem is how confusing this setting is; I downloaded the GT4 tuning guide and it seems to contradict the advice GT5P's tuning menu gives (which says + for toe-in, - for toe-out). Can someone clarify this for me (or at least confirm that this is a helluva lot more confusing than it ever should have been)?

Thanks for the read.

I have the same question. Sorry, maybe this may have been answered somewhere else, but I couldn't find it.

My confusion is that the tuning menu reads "Toe (OUT/IN)", which would suggest that toe-out is to the left, meaning a negative value in the menu slider. But everything I read in the forum and in the tuning guides says that toe-out should be a positive value!

Can anyone give a clear answer? I know what toe-out and toe-in mean. But in the GT5P tuning menu is toe-out the + or the - setting?
More to the point: to increase toe-out do you slide the setting to the left or to the right?

Thanks 👍

 

[HaylRayzor]

In GT5P toe-in is positive. +20 = toe-in, -20 = toe-out

 

[AutoAki]

I have done over 10 years car repairing, and thousands setups with Bear wheel-allignment machine. It gives +for toe-out / \ , and - for toe-in \ /.

I was very confused also with GT5P quicktune at first.

 

[Gaviao_pt]

In GT5P toe-in is positive. +20 = toe-in, -20 = toe-out

Thanks, I guess that clears it

In GT5P:
toe-in = positive values = slide to the right
toe-out = negative values = slide to the left

I have done over 10 years car repairing, and thousands setups with Bear wheel-allignment machine. It gives +for toe-out / \ , and - for toe-in \ /.
I was very confused also with GT5P quicktune at first.

But in GT5P its the other way around right? Please don't confuse me again! lol

What do our tuners have to say about this?

 

[Scaff]

But in GT5P its the other way around right? Please don't confuse me again! lol

What do our tuners have to say about this?

Like AutoAki I've spent a long time in the motor industry, but I have come across this particular bit of 'strangeness'.

I used to work for Renault UK and they (like all European manufacturers) quote Toe-in as + values. When we took over Nissan and started getting some of the Japanese spec sheets for the cars over (I worked in training so we needed them for technical training courses) they all had backwards Toe values.

I spoke to one of the technical trainers for Nissan Europe and he told me that 'reversed' Toe values are the norm in Japan, and they had to convert them over for Europe. Which is why we don't come across them in Europe, but does explain why they are reversed for GT5.

Strange or what?


Scaff

 

[AutoAki]

Thanks, I guess that clears it

In GT5P:
toe-in = positive values = slide to the right
toe-out = negative values = slide to the left



But in GT5P its the other way around right? Please don't confuse me again! lol

What do our tuners have to say about this?

There is no actual discribe what happens with toes, when you change them, but I think PD means toe-in is \ /... and toe-out / \ (I hope so)

In real-life toe-out is / \ , because it's been measured, that 'backside of tyres is example 2.0mm wider than frontside of tyres. Then toe-out is 2.0, which is quite basic for RWD cars.

Cambers are measured in degrees many time in real life, and I've been wondering how is that in GT5P... I assume they are degrees. 1 degree is about 6mm... so -1 camber means in real-life that upside of tyre is 6mm more in, than downside.

 

[AutoAki]

I spoke to one of the technical trainers for Nissan Europe and he told me that 'reversed' Toe values are the norm in Japan, and they had to convert them over for Europe. Which is why we don't come across them in Europe, but does explain why they are reversed for GT5.

Strange or what?


Scaff

Oh... thanks a lot about that! I have really thinking is that fault in this game or what.

 

[Gaviao_pt]

Like AutoAki I've spent a long time in the motor industry, but I have come across this particular bit of 'strangeness'.

I used to work for Renault UK and they (like all European manufacturers) quote Toe-in as + values. When we took over Nissan and started getting some of the Japanese spec sheets for the cars over (I worked in training so we needed them for technical training courses) they all had backwards Toe values.

I spoke to one of the technical trainers for Nissan Europe and he told me that 'reversed' Toe values are the norm in Japan, and they had to convert them over for Europe. Which is why we don't come across them in Europe, but does explain why they are reversed for GT5.

Strange or what?


Scaff

Thanks Scaff, that definitely makes it clear it for me!

By way, thank you for making your great guides available, super useful and I enjoyed reading them

 

[HaylRayzor]

There is no actual discribe what happens with toes, when you change them, but I think PD means toe-in is \ /... and toe-out / \ (I hope so)

In real-life toe-out is / \ , because it's been measured, that 'backside of tyres is example 2.0mm wider than frontside of tyres. Then toe-out is 2.0, which is quite basic for RWD cars.

The easiest way for the non-technical to understand is to think of the front of your tires as the toes of your feet. Toe-out is like having your toes pointed out and toe-in is like having your toes pointed in. Slight toe-in is normal for street cars because it gives stability in a straight line.

 

[AutoAki]

The easiest way for the non-technical to understand is to think of the front of your tires as the toes of your feet. Toe-out is like having your toes pointed out and toe-in is like having your toes pointed in. Slight toe-in is normal for street cars because it gives stability in a straight line.

In this Game that works fine for thinking.

When I did toe-settings to customer, in Finish-language, I describe to them always terms like more-toe / \ ... less-toe | | ... and effuse \ /. In our language, toe can only mean / \


Autodata wheel settings books gives always toe-/ \ is +, and toe-\ / is -

 

[AutoAki]

Hahaa... I just realized when I opened PS3 and quick-tune section, that toe-in is + / \ ...if it really means your toes are pointing in.

Would be so much easier if there could be simple graphics about what happens when doing setups in toes. I never think about it really means 'toes', cause in our language that 'toe-in' word have nothing to do with legs... correct translation is 'plough' from term we use.

Example snowtruck is ploughing with 'toes-in'. I always were thinking 'toe-out' means that you take track-rods wider, so it must be 'toe-out'.


This new mind-opening puts tuning to a new light. I use only ready-tunes, and almost all of them are -front and +rear. I would never setup my real-cars front-tyres to toes-out! hmmm...


edit: This must be like Scaff said about 'reversing toe values'... it just sounds so grazy in my mind that 'toes-out' could be much better in racing. Almost every tune in 'Tuning-garages' are -/front and +/rear.

...but what can I know, havent race this kind of cars ever in my life in real.

 

[Gaviao_pt]

A slight toe-out on the front wheels facilitates the turn-in of the car, at the expense of slightly worse grip during the turn
(I can't remember why right now but it's in Scaff's guide)

 

[Scaff]

Thanks Scaff, that definitely makes it clear it for me!

By way, thank you for making your great guides available, super useful and I enjoyed reading them

No problem at all, just glad they are useful. 👍

A slight toe-out on the front wheels facilitates the turn-in of the car, at the expense of slightly worse grip during the turn
(I can't remember why right now but it's in Scaff's guide)

Spot on. As for the reasons why you need to look at the two stages of taking a corner.

Initial turn in is affected by a number of factors, one of which is the front tyre nearest the apex, a small amount of toe-out has that tyre pointing towards the apex before you even start turning. So as you turn-in the car is already trying to go in that direction.

However the trade off is that once corning starts the load will mainly go to the front tyre furthest from the apex, toe-out has this one pointing away from the corner, so you have to aply slightly more lock to get the same steering angle, which increases the slip angle and can result in lower grip.

Effectively the two tyres are 'fighting' against each other in the different stages of the corner.

Oval racing set-ups (in the real world) actually set one front wheel up with toe-out (nearest the corner apex) and one with toe-in (furthest from the corner), which maximises both tyres. This is of course not without its problems, the first being in can only be used on an oval track (you need all the corners going the same way) the second being increased and uneven tyre wear and finally the car becomes a complete dog to drive in a straight line.


Regards

Scaff

 

[AutoAki]

No problem at all, just glad they are useful. 👍




Spot on. As for the reasons why you need to look at the two stages of taking a corner.

Initial turn in is affected by a number of factors, one of which is the front tyre nearest the apex, a small amount of toe-out has that tyre pointing towards the apex before you even start turning. So as you turn-in the car is already trying to go in that direction.

However the trade off is that once corning starts the load will mainly go to the front tyre furthest from the apex, toe-out has this one pointing away from the corner, so you have to aply slightly more lock to get the same steering angle, which increases the slip angle and can result in lower grip.

Effectively the two tyres are 'fighting' against each other in the different stages of the corner.

Oval racing set-ups (in the real world) actually set one front wheel up with toe-out (nearest the corner apex) and one with toe-in (furthest from the corner), which maximises both tyres. This is of course not without its problems, the first being in can only be used on an oval track (you need all the corners going the same way) the second being increased and uneven tyre wear and finally the car becomes a complete dog to drive in a straight line.


Regards

Scaff

That totally makes sense after small thinking. When outside front-tyre is pointing to right direction, inside tyre wants to same direction even more. That makes it turn better, but could also cause oversteering if inside-tyre gets suddenly more grip.

My wheel-setting thinking is based too much to economic-way. Toe-out, and cambers in, eats lowprofile-tyres very fast, so I would ever use that in my 2000 kg RWD.

 

[BobElHat]

My confusion is that the tuning menu reads "Toe (OUT/IN)", which would suggest that toe-out is to the left, meaning a negative value in the menu slider. But everything I read in the forum and in the tuning guides says that toe-out should be a positive value!

The text that scrolls by on the bottom of the tuning window explains what the game means by +ve and -ve toe values. You have to wait a while to read it all as it scrolls slowly by, but there is a fair bit of information there. There is similar text for every setting. Considering the explanations are only a few sentences I find they do a pretty good job of explaining the basics and are a handy quick reference if, for example, you forget whether raising the back end will shift the balance more towards understeer or oversteer.