Most realistic racing SIM?

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Thornlie
I bought GTS and after a few days started to get bored with it if I'm honest ... not cos it's a bad game but just not very realistic, so that's why I purchased Project Cars II and apart from taking a little while to get use to having to focus on what condition my tires are in at any given time and the pain that goes with not being use to driving on cold tires etc, I've never doubted that buying Project Cars II was the right move.

Anybody else buy Project Cars II after trying another racing SIM and being disappointed? (I'm not making this a "GTS vs Project Cars II" but just curious if anybody found any other SIM lacking and Project Cars II turned out to be the answer etc..)
 
I'm I the only one who has found GTS "boring" or lacking is probably a better word. It really is disappointing that tire pressures and "cold" vs "hot" tires aren't taken into account... Especially considering GTS is the self proclaimed best racing simulator on the market.. with that and the fact after you "tune" your cars they are pretty easy to drive regardless of whether they are FF, RWD, 4WD or MR - it's pretty damn disappointing tbh
 
I'm I the only one who has found GTS "boring" or lacking is probably a better word. It really is disappointing that tire pressures and "cold" vs "hot" tires aren't taken into account... Especially considering GTS is the self proclaimed best racing simulator on the market..
It never claimed to be the best...
 
Well maybe not, your right there.. hasn't stopped people claiming it is tho' but yeh I see your point ....
Dont mean this in the wrong way, but you are trolling in a PC2 thread. In my opinion PC2 is the best overall "sim"on the PS4 at the moment. In realism i place it in between GTsport and AC.
 
I doubt any racing sim just now is realistic. Hardcore sim racers think it should be near impossible to drive most cars and racing drivers tell you driving race cars is easy. From my understanding most sims make it much harder to drive the virtual car than it would be in real life.
 
There's only a couple of things that holds PC2 back from being the ne plus ultra of racing games, IMHO...

First, and probably the main thing, is the lack of friendliness towards noob players. I can't tell you how many of my GT6/GTS 'Friends' tried out the demo, spent most of their time spinning off in the first laps or two, and went running back to Momma, tail between their legs! The fact is, give it a LOT of time, it is little harder than GTS. But SMS's default tunes with a few notable exceptions, suck! The difference in ease of driving for a well tuned car compared to SMS's default tunes is night and day. I truly believe that if SMS simply copied some of the better tunes from TT rooms (not the fastest, still need to leave a BIT of room for improvement!) and made them the default tunes, initial impressions would be far more favorable.

SMS could also provide a track temperature 'Wizard' for those that want it. Tire pressures are another critical aspect of ease of handling that makes initial playing very unforgiving. They have a 'Race Engineer' section that helps a BIT with tuning (although it needs considerable improvement), but there is nothing in-game that helps at all with tire pressures. For the beginner player (or just the casual one), somewhere you could inform the game about track temps (or have it taken from the game data) and it sets a more controllable tire pressure would once again make PC2 less of a 'try it and bin it' experience for most coming into it from other more arcadey games like GTS and Forza.

And all this results in this, possibly the most damaging and hard to overcome aspect holding PC2 back...

The fractured player base. Play GTS/GT6, or Forza, you are playing EVERYONE that is playing the game. Play iRacing, you are playing EVERYONE. Lobbies are full, races are abundant, tons of online choice. Play PC2 on a console, you are playing, at best, 25% of the player base. Even your leaderboards only show your platform's times. Now add in the unnecessarily high noob challenge, and top it off with the game already only have a fraction of GT or Forza's player base, it is a recipe for failure.

If SMS want to successfully scavenge GT or Forza's player base, yes, I understand there is little yet they can do about making the game cross-platform. But that makes having the game hold the hand of the console players that are trying to migrate from less complex to master games even MORE critical. Few GT or Forza players are going to spring for a fatboy gaming PC with a monster graphics card if they are playing on a PS4/XBone because of budget! SMS are going to have to hold these players' hands and ease them into PC2. And sadly, from pretty much everything I read at PC2's forum and site, they are too elitist to do that. They WANT the best sim, they WANT it to be hard. they WANT to feel 'special'.

Trouble is, on consoles, with barely 25% of the player base, being 'special' is killing the game. What's the point of the best sim, if you have the least opponents?

The only thing keeping me from binning the game at the moment and going back to Gran Turismo is the AI. WAY faster than GT, way faster than ME, LOL (which I can't say that about GT!). But to watch SMS shoot themselves in the foot trying to be too elitist for console players is painful! The improvements to make PC2 more initially well set up would not remove a single hardcore element from the game. Do your own tune, set your own tire pressures, tweak your own FFB - knock yourself out!

But you never get a second chance at a first impression. Offering close to optimal tunes and tire pressures to new players would, IMHO, go a LONG way to keeping them playing.

How is that a bad thing?

PC2 rules the roost with track and car selection, AI, and depth of real life racing detail. But is struggling, especially on consoles. This could so easily be fixed. I guess we will see if SMS want to.
 
There's only a couple of things that holds PC2 back from being the ne plus ultra of racing games, IMHO...

First, and probably the main thing, is the lack of friendliness towards noob players. I can't tell you how many of my GT6/GTS 'Friends' tried out the demo, spent most of their time spinning off in the first laps or two, and went running back to Momma, tail between their legs! The fact is, give it a LOT of time, it is little harder than GTS. But SMS's default tunes with a few notable exceptions, suck! The difference in ease of driving for a well tuned car compared to SMS's default tunes is night and day. I truly believe that if SMS simply copied some of the better tunes from TT rooms (not the fastest, still need to leave a BIT of room for improvement!) and made them the default tunes, initial impressions would be far more favorable.

SMS could also provide a track temperature 'Wizard' for those that want it. Tire pressures are another critical aspect of ease of handling that makes initial playing very unforgiving. They have a 'Race Engineer' section that helps a BIT with tuning (although it needs considerable improvement), but there is nothing in-game that helps at all with tire pressures. For the beginner player (or just the casual one), somewhere you could inform the game about track temps (or have it taken from the game data) and it sets a more controllable tire pressure would once again make PC2 less of a 'try it and bin it' experience for most coming into it from other more arcadey games like GTS and Forza.

And all this results in this, possibly the most damaging and hard to overcome aspect holding PC2 back...

The fractured player base. Play GTS/GT6, or Forza, you are playing EVERYONE that is playing the game. Play iRacing, you are playing EVERYONE. Lobbies are full, races are abundant, tons of online choice. Play PC2 on a console, you are playing, at best, 25% of the player base. Even your leaderboards only show your platform's times. Now add in the unnecessarily high noob challenge, and top it off with the game already only have a fraction of GT or Forza's player base, it is a recipe for failure.

If SMS want to successfully scavenge GT or Forza's player base, yes, I understand there is little yet they can do about making the game cross-platform. But that makes having the game hold the hand of the console players that are trying to migrate from less complex to master games even MORE critical. Few GT or Forza players are going to spring for a fatboy gaming PC with a monster graphics card if they are playing on a PS4/XBone because of budget! SMS are going to have to hold these players' hands and ease them into PC2. And sadly, from pretty much everything I read at PC2's forum and site, they are too elitist to do that. They WANT the best sim, they WANT it to be hard. they WANT to feel 'special'.

Trouble is, on consoles, with barely 25% of the player base, being 'special' is killing the game. What's the point of the best sim, if you have the least opponents?

The only thing keeping me from binning the game at the moment and going back to Gran Turismo is the AI. WAY faster than GT, way faster than ME, LOL (which I can't say that about GT!). But to watch SMS shoot themselves in the foot trying to be too elitist for console players is painful! The improvements to make PC2 more initially well set up would not remove a single hardcore element from the game. Do your own tune, set your own tire pressures, tweak your own FFB - knock yourself out!

But you never get a second chance at a first impression. Offering close to optimal tunes and tire pressures to new players would, IMHO, go a LONG way to keeping them playing.

How is that a bad thing?

PC2 rules the roost with track and car selection, AI, and depth of real life racing detail. But is struggling, especially on consoles. This could so easily be fixed. I guess we will see if SMS want to.

PC2 found the perfect balance in Sim / videogame in my opinion. Full on Sim is a too much of a niche and way too boring for the majority players out there. The reason those GT friends are spinning out is because they are probably driving with TC off. If you turn on TC higher you come closer to GT. Dont really think SMS is overlooking consoleplayers... Im guessing Pcars2 sold way more console copies then PC.

edit:
Found this data about sales of PCars on wikipedia:
"In the first week of physical sales in the UK, Project CARS sold 63 percent of its total on the PlayStation 4 console, with 31 percent on the Xbox One and 6 percent on the PC."
 
Current figures quoted at SMS's forum indicate 50% PC at least. As does the traffic on each platform's forum. Don't forget, PC2 sales figures (those quotes are for PC1, right?) on console may very well reflect the mass fleeing of PC1 console players back to games set up far more for their console and abilities, combined with migration from console to PC for those that DID like the game but realized how compromised it was graphically and feature-wise (there's SO much more you can control in the PC version). PC1 was pretty close to unplayable on a gamepad, and you seldom get a second chance at that first impression.

Please also don't forget, 'physical sales' doesn't count Steam, probably the main way PC2 is played on PC.

But yes, I also agree that PC2 is the absolutely best current sim/videogame. But I am afraid I also think that, for the more casual player, it is a steeper (far steeper!) learning curve, even with TC on (which many online rooms ban if not accurate to IRL) and all that is doing is making the so-called 'best' game one of the least popular. And popularity is what sustains the breed, pays for bugfixes, development, new content and progress.

SMS eschew it at their peril!
 
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Current figures quoted at SMS's forum indicate 50% PC at least. As does the traffic on each platform's forum. Don't forget, PC2 sales figures (those quotes are for PC1, right?) on console may very well reflect the mass fleeing of PC1 console players back to games set up far more for their console and abilities, combined with migration from console to PC for those that DID like the game but realized how compromised it was graphically and feature-wise (there's SO much more you can control in the PC version). PC1 was pretty close to unplayable on a gamepad, and you seldom get a second chance at that first impression.

Please also don't forget, 'physical sales' doesn't count Steam, probably the main way PC2 is played on PC.
Could be... but dont underestimate console players. The market for console gamers is much larger especially for racing games. Dont have the figures to back it up though.
 
Could be... but dont underestimate console players. The market for console gamers is much larger especially for racing games. Dont have the figures to back it up though.

No argument at all... But the issue is not total market. It is getting arcadey players into a true sim. Something I think SMS fail at, and think only a few things could turn it around.

Right now, Gran Turismo is at its weakest it has been in years. Sport has major issues, content is a fraction of what it used to be, and is a fraction of PC2's. PC2 should be KILLING GTS. But it isn't. And I truly think the reasons I outline are much of it. SMS may only have this small window to truly dominate GT, and they appear to not be interested. Once GT's content and handling model get better (as they will), that window is gone.
 
I doubt any racing sim just now is realistic. Hardcore sim racers think it should be near impossible to drive most cars and racing drivers tell you driving race cars is easy. From my understanding most sims make it much harder to drive the virtual car than it would be in real life.
I don't personally find either PC2 or AC hard to drive at all, with the exception of those cars that are notoriously tricky in reality.

Certainly those cars (or similar) that I have experience of drive in a very similar manner.

What is harder in those two (and reality) is driving them on the limit consistently, particularly with changing track and weather conditions.
 
Dont mean this in the wrong way, but you are trolling in a PC2 thread. In my opinion PC2 is the best overall "sim"on the PS4 at the moment. In realism i place it in between GTsport and AC.

I don't mean to be trolling or anything but just genuinely interested in other people's opinions on whether or not PC2 is a more realistic game/challenge than than others on PS4 ... I still enjoy playing Gran Turismo but it's just not that interesting anymore, don't know whether that's because of the lack of content for the fact that we can tune cars so that pretty much every car is very drivable - unlike in the old days .. yeah I suppose the place to post this would have been in a general section not some forum dedicated to PC2 but I'm not sure if there is one ....
 
I used to love gts, untill I tried pc2 demo and oh boy.. I recently bought the PS4 limited edition pc2 and haven't touched gts ever since.
Pc2 feels way better driving with a wheel and I don't get bored without having a ps+ subscription
 
I doubt any racing sim just now is realistic. Hardcore sim racers think it should be near impossible to drive most cars and racing drivers tell you driving race cars is easy. From my understanding most sims make it much harder to drive the virtual car than it would be in real life.
We're essentially handicapped against real drivers with a lack of G-forces to feel the attitude of the car- forced to rely on slightly delayed 2D visuals and force feedback, and respond with delayed control inputs that stretch would-be split-second corrections into spinouts or crashes.
 
they WANT it to be hard
They don't want it to be hard though. They just want it to be accurate in accordance with real life.

On your first point, although there are aspects which can be helped by the game I agree with you. Many games can do more to help their fanbase through whether through a series of driving school elements like GT has or something else and that may help the people who tend to quit early because it doesn't drive like GT.

On your second point, that sounds like a pretty good idea. I know what differences happen with massive changes in temperatures but not really what happens in smaller changes in temperatures i.e. within a tyre compound's range. However, this is really the fine tuning league racer in me talking.

On your fractured player base point, I see your point but I think that's the case with any multi-console game where you have only custom online lobbies. You have just the matchmaking aspects and private lobbies, you just have the racing version of single platform Call of Duty or Fortnite just with more people. Look in GT Sport's custom lobbies and you'll see a similar issue. I'd love to see that issue solved with multi-platform gaming but I just don't see it happen on this form of game.

The problem with your more optimal tune idea is that the optimal tune has to be driveable on every track in every condition and that would have to be done for every car. They've made strides towards that with the Loose and Stable setups and of course, they can be improved. But it would take a ridiculous amount of time to perfect and what's perfect for one person's driving style will not be perfect for another's.

It is getting arcadey players into a true sim.
Arcadey players are not the market for sim players. It's like offering a vegetarian a rack of pork ribs. Sure, they may try it if they want to but they're not really going to be reliable when it comes to buying those racks of ribs. They may return them or not buy them again. Meanwhile, you have me who likes pork ribs. I like to have a variety of ribs and will choose my favourite and in this case, the SMS Ribs are my favourite. I used to enjoy the GT Ribs but I've just not enjoyed it as much. The other type of person is the person who likes to eat meat but hasn't had ribs.

Anyway. I'm hungry for ribs now.
 
There are online tunes out there that, on just about any track in the game, make most cars FAR easier to handle. Are they the 'best' tune for each particular track? Of course not. But they are a damn sight closer to optimal that the stock Stable and Loose tunes. Those ARE the tunes that most newcomers load up, spin out with and return to GT. I guarantee, were one of the FAR better (but still not 'perfect'... no-one's saying leave no room for improvement!) tunes available the stock ones, game retention would be far higher, IMHO.

I know it is very hard for a hardcore, experienced racer to put himself in the shoes of someone migrating to PC2 from GTS or Forza, it has probably been years if not decades since you were that inexperienced. But try...

Most of us that played GT long enough to 'gitgud' wanted GT to keep the initial ease of introduction, but simply wanted the path to perfection be allowed to go much further. PD couldn't do it. Their physics and tire model simply couldn't do it. PC2 can, but the ease of introduction is lost, so it remains a niche product for the hardcore simmer. All I'm saying is, why not both?

I think it's an awful lot easier to dumb down a great model for introduction's sake, than it is to make hardcore a dumb model.

And ribs sounds great, right about now!
 
We're essentially handicapped against real drivers with a lack of G-forces to feel the attitude of the car- forced to rely on slightly delayed 2D visuals and force feedback, and respond with delayed control inputs that stretch would-be split-second corrections into spinouts or crashes.

This^^^^. The G-forces that you experience and moreover the changes in those G-forces you experience when driving for real will tell you more about what the car is doing than simple FFB or visual cues will ever do.

A simple case in point - I recently tried the VR tour in GTS, and due to the immersion when I hit the brake pedal I automatically went for the non existent handbrake (emergency brake) because it felt like the brakes had failed - I didn’t feel the g-force of braking.

So basically a driving sim that’s pretty close to the real world is going to be a lot harder than driving in real life because you’re not getting the information needed to make the decisions you need to make before you get any visual or FFB cues, by which time it’s often too late.
 
So basically a driving sim that’s pretty close to the real world is going to be a lot harder than driving in real life because you’re not getting the information needed to make the decisions you need to make before you get any visual or FFB cues.
Only if you're driving on the edge and I would not call it "a lot harder" because I do not find it so difficult and sounds like an excuse for developers not to pursue physics which is as realistic as possible.
 
I kind of taught myself high speed driving on Live for Speed (with a wheel) and refined my technique with Enthusia (with a controller), and I don't consider my abilities to be bound to physical feedback, either seat-of-pants or from the wheel. The feedback certainly helps in the real world, but in a game I'm plenty comfortable relying upon visual cues. I also went out of my way to keep visual/input latency to a minimum when I upgraded to an HD display.

I think there's an uncanny-valley-like effect with games that present themselves as authentic but are not the most realistic. When a game takes itself seriously it tends to add challenge over a less complex and/or more accessible game, but once a simulator is realistic enough it becomes "easier" again because there are fewer quirks or shortcomings for experienced players have to work around.

It's not entirely the fault of some developers equating "difficult = realistic". It's also a consequence of not recreating certain things correctly. For example, I find drifting to be kind of a chore in Forza titles because the handling model throws off my intended line with its subtle countersteer help. It makes drifting easier for most people, but a little harder for me.
 
There are online tunes out there that, on just about any track in the game, make most cars FAR easier to handle. Are they the 'best' tune for each particular track? Of course not. But they are a damn sight closer to optimal that the stock Stable and Loose tunes. Those ARE the tunes that most newcomers load up, spin out with and return to GT. I guarantee, were one of the FAR better (but still not 'perfect'... no-one's saying leave no room for improvement!) tunes available the stock ones, game retention would be far higher, IMHO.

I know it is very hard for a hardcore, experienced racer to put himself in the shoes of someone migrating to PC2 from GTS or Forza, it has probably been years if not decades since you were that inexperienced. But try...

Most of us that played GT long enough to 'gitgud' wanted GT to keep the initial ease of introduction, but simply wanted the path to perfection be allowed to go much further. PD couldn't do it. Their physics and tire model simply couldn't do it. PC2 can, but the ease of introduction is lost, so it remains a niche product for the hardcore simmer. All I'm saying is, why not both?

I think it's an awful lot easier to dumb down a great model for introduction's sake, than it is to make hardcore a dumb model.

And ribs sounds great, right about now!
My mate has just got a CSL Elite and Gt Omega cockpit. Hes 38 and been playing games all his life including simcades like Forza n GT and any before but never a full on sim with wheel and pedals.

For 2 weeks he could not get to grips with PCARS 2 with just constantly spinning out all the time and believing his wheel was knackared. We calibrated it about 8 times in game just incase it was the wheel and trying to get to the bottom why he was so bad. (He drives a 290 bhp Leon Cupra in real life so he can drive) For him getting into his first proper sim the default tunes were bloody awful it was not until i showed him where to look for tunes hes now able to get round a track without spinning out constantly.

Now if people can get these cars driveable for novices why cant SMS?
 
My mate has just got a CSL Elite and Gt Omega cockpit. Hes 38 and been playing games all his life including simcades like Forza n GT and any before but never a full on sim with wheel and pedals.

For 2 weeks he could not get to grips with PCARS 2 with just constantly spinning out all the time and believing his wheel was knackared. We calibrated it about 8 times in game just incase it was the wheel and trying to get to the bottom why he was so bad. (He drives a 290 bhp Leon Cupra in real life so he can drive) For him getting into his first proper sim the default tunes were bloody awful it was not until i showed him where to look for tunes hes now able to get round a track without spinning out constantly.

Now if people can get these cars driveable for novices why cant SMS?
With which default set-up?

My own view on this is that within a range of sensible no tune is wrong overall, its just wrong for that individual.

In my own case I generally prefer the 'stable' set-ups for most cars over the default wheel option of 'loose', simply because I find a degree of mild understeer better suits my driving style than a degree of oversteer. However in some cars that will differ, for example I do prefer FWD Touring Cars running looser, so I go for the 'loose' default.

For the same reason I also will tend to reduce the compression braking on some cars, that doesn't mean that's the 'right' thing to do, simply that its what works for me and my preferred driving style

This is no different that in reality, a set-up that suits Driver A at Track B may well be no good at all on the same track for Driver B. An example of this would be Schumacher's time at Ferrari, they built cars around his preference for oversteer. engineered it into the very core of them, and as a result had to look for drivers to partner with him that preferred the same, as those that didn't simply din not get on with the car at all.

https://f1bias.com/2014/07/08/kimi-raikkonens-problems-at-ferrari-explained-2/

You then have the OEM tunes, which are designed for road use and will tend to understeer a lot out of the box, these again are not 'wrong' they are very much how they should be. As one of the first things that you do when running a 'stock' road car at a track day or other driving event is adjust the tyre pressures to suit, as what works tyre pressure wise on the road doesn't work on track. In most cases the cold pressures need dropping, this is exactly the same case in AC as well.

http://trackdays.ie/track-day-tyre-pressures-set/
 
Regarding AC, He's only played it once and that was a 2hour stint at mines. 30 minutes to get used to it and then the next 1hr 30 mins not spinning out contstantly and actually racing round really enjoying it. The default AC tunes seem vastly superior although that could well be the better physics in play,
 
Regarding AC, He's only played it once and that was a 2hour stint at mines. 30 minutes to get used to it and then the next 1hr 30 mins not spinning out contstantly and actually racing round really enjoying it. The default AC tunes seem vastly superior although that could well be the better physics in play,
I run them both as my main track based titles, the difference between them is significantly smaller than you're making out here.

However two hours isn't close to enough time to get to grips with that side.
 
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I run them both as my main track based titles, the difference between them is significantly smaller than you're making out here.

However two hours isn't close to enough time to get to grips with that side.
2 hours is no where near enough to conquer but what im saying is he could drive fairly confidently with AC after just 2 hours. 2 weeks with PCARS 2 he was still struggling and spinning out non stop.
 
2 hours is no where near enough to conquer but what im saying is he could drive fairly confidently with AC after just 2 hours. 2 weeks with PCARS 2 he was still struggling and spinning out non stop.
As I asked in my previous post, which tune, in addition which car, track track condition, etc.

Without the ability to know this and tests this for ourselves it's simply unsupported anecdotal claims.

Exactly the same with AC, stick him in one of the two Maserati classic GP cars, I'd love to see one of those driven hard without spinning with half an hour, same with the yellowbird on high boost (to name but a few).
 

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