Motion or non-motion cockpit?

  • Thread starter jevs
  • 64 comments
  • 18,839 views
To help out the OP, It somewhat relates to what you are asking.

I'm a pilot and have a degree in aeronautics, there are several different class'es of Flight simulators. The low end of simulation flight training happens on FTD's (Flight Training Device) which do not move like most of our race setups at home. High end Commercial aviation uses FSS (Full Flight Simulator which much move on 3 axis'). In the aviation world there have been human factor's studies question the value of motion for simulation flight training and the results have been it does not improve a pilots skill level compared to one who has done the same amount of training with a non motion sim.

So, from the research and what I've learned from years at school, full motion is not necessary. Movement in the real world is about g forces and what your body/Semicircular canals sense. When a sim reaches its limit of movement then those feelings will go away.

We will not get those feelings until someone creates away for you to replicate that without using a NASA G Sim. From a training aspect (you racing on your pc) It will not improve you skill level by any more than a nominal %. It may improve your personal driving experience, you would probably feel more enjoyment with motion, and the value of that can only be determined by you.
 
Yes yes, I'm diluting my gaming experience by adding gadgets. LOFL.

I spent literally 9 hours on my simulator yesterday. 9 wonderfully fun hours I might add. The most I have ever spent on my static simulator was 2.

Perhaps you took the question in the wrong way. I do not think looking in forums for the past 3 years I've come across anyone having a sim that incorporates such a chair with it's own motion effects combined with 4dof motion platform like your D-Box.

A step too far in your quest for immersion/realism perhaps, though I'm curious you find any need for further motion effects. I question the compatibility and timing/effects of both to work well together and well maybe it is going a bit too much regards the gimmicks but heck only one way to find out, you go for it...

My point is with all that do you end up paying more attention to the motion and effects than the actual game itself? Like your ambition Mayaman but think your getting a bit obsessed in your found hobby with 9 hour sessions lol. :)
 
Last edited:
If I have the time I will race all day also. Dont think thats anything that alot of us sim racers (hell gamers in general) havent done when given the chance. I know some people cant play that long, but Im pretty sure theres alot that can.
 
My reply to you latte is you have no idea what you're talking about. Fine tuning my rig involves all aspects from motion, tactile, video, audio and equipment. Yet you say I'm obsessed? Are you nugging futz? Have you looked at your thread?

The main focus is the game, and how to make it better. All this nonsense is sounding like sour grapes to me. Especially trying to convince everyone that you know what's going on in my own head? Please dude.

Edit: at this point I should already know who the baiters are looking to hook a sucker. Sigh

I think I'll not comment on any of this any more, it isn't worth it since we have so many experts with zero experience with the stuff they're commenting on. "I've tried this and that at arcade XYZ" Gimme a break. Unless you've lived with it, used it, tuned it, you know zip about it to be making statements like the ones on this forum since forever.

*Forest Gump*

Thats all I have to say about that.
 
Last edited:
You call it nonsense.

I call it common sense.

Ever heard of the law of diminishing returns?

Lol..what does that have to do with anything. Mayaman's not running a business he's having fun. I'm taking g/f to cinema later and dinner after. It will cost around £100 all in maybe. That's around 4 hours entertainment. I can average 3 or 4 hours a night on my rig and have done and will continue to do so for the forseeable future...work it out, it's actually value for money ;)
 
superbike81
You call it nonsense.

I call it common sense.

Ever heard of the law of diminishing returns?

Oh give us a break. It's not your time and money is it? You've voiced your opinion; give it a rest why don't you.
 
You guys are all taking this way to far. He's wanting to have fun playing video games. These games are nothing like the real thing anyway they are just to have fun playing. I don't know why everyone gets hung up on realism with racing games. Some games are more realistic then others but none of them are anything like really racing or driving. Once you get really into a game it may feel like real racing and if this is the case then a motion setup for you would probably start to feel real after you get use to it and your brain starts understanding what it's trying to do. It would probably take awhile. I can't imagine an hour or two session in a motion setup being enough time to have much of an opinion on it.

If I had enough time to really enjoy my sim games then I would not hesitate to by some kind of motion setup. I would though want one where the entire rig moves The ones that just move the seat looks like they would make me sick.
 
bevo, I totally disagree with your generalization of simracing. I mean if we were back in the early 2000's your arguement of "it's just a game, nothing at all like real racing" would hold semi-true, but here we are in 2012 with stunning advancements in display technology, blazing fast graphics/processors, amazing FFB racing wheel setups, surround audio/tactile - all with racing title developers working hard to replicate the behaviour of cars to their real life counterparts. We even get to race other human beings via internet with zero lag, something I'm still impressed with that it actually is possible (I don't know why, I just find it incredible that information can travel those distances in real time).

Honestly, nothing could get more favourable in the way of replicating the experience of racing for the average person, the "games" that we get to play now are what racing teams were spending hundreds of thousands on for simulation purposes just a decade ago.

What else could we ask for? The only thing that springs to my mind, besides developers keeping advancing physics, is taking the brake pedal assemblies further and incorporating FFB, as well as the gearbox communicating with the clutch pedal to increase overall feeling of working "together". The fact is motion setups will be part of home-simracing in the future, with hopefully most developers taking their time to get a well calibrated motion code included would be simply natural progression. Motion is simply the last feasible option that we have to get as close to the real thing in the living room, literally.

If you're still convinced that simracing these days is nothing but a mere "game to have fun", then consider this - maybe real life racing is also nothing but a game. :indiff:
 
occasionalracer
maybe real life racing is also nothing but a game. :indiff:

I'm not disagreeing with you, but real life racing is pretty much just a game, same as any other sport...
 
Although i would like to have a motion based sim rig, i simply do not have the space for it.

One big disadavantage that most motion based rigs have is that the screens and or sometimes even the wheel is not moving with you.

This might be make it feel more like a gimmick to me.
Something like the headtracking in Forza4/GT5, i never got used to that because it feels unnatural.

But there a dutch company that 'solves' that with the cruden hexatech :):



This is something i would buy if i won the lottery :D


Although Hexatech and Cruden are the same company- Hexatech is the entertainment division- and the company itself (Cruden) came out of the flight sim division of the Dutch company Fokker. And if you look at the sim used by Toyota or even Redbull- the six (Hexa therefore Hexatech) actuators that holds the platform (onto which the chassis is mounted) is from Cruden. It's essentially the same six-actuator setup whether it's for entertainment (as seen in the above video) or the one used by F1 team. The difference is the with F1 team there's addition of the video projection- apparently a very important element to the whole setup. The pricing for the Cruden entertainment platform is around 100,000 euros + another 100,000 euro for the video projection.

It seems the difference between the entertainment (gimmick) and the pro is in the software setup and therefore the type and the amount of motion. I wish I could scan and post the Racecar Engineering Sept 2011 issue- it's basically about motion simulator ans the different POV and approaches.
 
I use a wide format triple projection which is basically a 1:1 of a real windshield. Didn't cost me 100,000. And once I post my video after the embargo you'll see how realistic it is. I already have a video on youtube that's pretty convincing. Check it out.
 
Mayaman
I use a wide format triple projection which is basically a 1:1 of a real windshield. Didn't cost me 100,000. And once I post my video after the embargo you'll see how realistic it is. I already have a video on youtube that's pretty convincing. Check it out.

I don't doubt how well your projection work but in the case of how Toyota or Red Bull have theirs setup (both are supplied by Cruden) there's the importance of having the screen motion aligned to that if the screen. You've probably seen the Red Bull sim. And it's probably overpriced but it's a turnkey operation so that's to be expected.

Just in case you're not familiar with Red Bull or Toyota sim:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMAK4_TOn0w&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 
I'm not disagreeing with you, but real life racing is pretty much just a game, same as any other sport...

Precisely what I meant... which is why I'm not too bothered that I'm turning laps in a racing game, as long as the competition is equal and I can connect with the car balance. I also drive real cars at the limit, unfortunately I don't have the money needed to get into organized regional racing events to see how I would fair in wheel-to-wheel racing. I'll just enjoy my fun days ripping around the streets, some fun track-days with friends and some heated battles online, other than that I'm not in it for the big sponsorship. :)
 
I found the article that you can preview online- it's the September issue 2011 of RE under the heading Motion Based Simulation and the first article is called Confidence Tricks but there are three other accompanying article on the same subject. There's even one article at the end of the issue that happens to be the first part of three parts series on Tire Simulation.

Here's the link: http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1v28w/RacecarEngineeringDi/resources/32.htm

Have fun!
 
Last edited:
My reply to you latte is you have no idea what you're talking about. Fine tuning my rig involves all aspects from motion, tactile, video, audio and equipment. Yet you say I'm obsessed? Are you nugging futz? Have you looked at your thread?

The main focus is the game, and how to make it better. All this nonsense is sounding like sour grapes to me. Especially trying to convince everyone that you know what's going on in my own head? Please dude.

Edit: at this point I should already know who the baiters are looking to hook a sucker. Sigh

I think I'll not comment on any of this any more, it isn't worth it since we have so many experts with zero experience with the stuff they're commenting on. "I've tried this and that at arcade XYZ" Gimme a break. Unless you've lived with it, used it, tuned it, you know zip about it to be making statements like the ones on this forum since forever.

*Forest Gump*

Thats all I have to say about that.

The thread wasn't about you but its clear who wants to be centre stage here with your comments and rather rude attitude. Convince people? Please if you havn't tried a motion chair with a motion cockpit then you have no idea the two will work effectively together, or be excessive, simple. I'm sorry you don't see (harmless) questioning that combination and the point I raised that as yet I never seen such before doesn't mean I'm talking rubbish, gees you really have a problem with someone questioning anything you do it seems sorry to ruffle your feathers.

Also try and have a sense of humour, 9 hours is quite a session, you were complemented and I'm keen on learning how things go for you with your plans from a hardware achievement perspective, it's a shame though you don't see admiration when its put in front of you even if not everyone or myself would agree with all your ideas or what appears as a journey to stop at nothing to continue your simulation quest.
 
Last edited:
I don't doubt how well your projection work but in the case of how Toyota or Red Bull have theirs setup (both are supplied by Cruden) there's the importance of having the screen motion aligned to that if the screen. You've probably seen the Red Bull sim. And it's probably overpriced but it's a turnkey operation so that's to be expected.

Just in case you're not familiar with Red Bull or Toyota sim:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMAK4_TOn0w&feature=youtube_gdata_player

OH yeah definitely understand :) Plus their setup moves with the sim which mine doesn't. I was just pointing out with some ingenuity you can replicate a pretty good reproduction for a fraction of the cost.
 
bevo, I totally disagree with your generalization of simracing. I mean if we were back in the early 2000's your arguement of "it's just a game, nothing at all like real racing" would hold semi-true, but here we are in 2012 with stunning advancements in display technology, blazing fast graphics/processors, amazing FFB racing wheel setups, surround audio/tactile - all with racing title developers working hard to replicate the behaviour of cars to their real life counterparts. We even get to race other human beings via internet with zero lag, something I'm still impressed with that it actually is possible (I don't know why, I just find it incredible that information can travel those distances in real time).

Honestly, nothing could get more favourable in the way of replicating the experience of racing for the average person, the "games" that we get to play now are what racing teams were spending hundreds of thousands on for simulation purposes just a decade ago.

What else could we ask for? The only thing that springs to my mind, besides developers keeping advancing physics, is taking the brake pedal assemblies further and incorporating FFB, as well as the gearbox communicating with the clutch pedal to increase overall feeling of working "together". The fact is motion setups will be part of home-simracing in the future, with hopefully most developers taking their time to get a well calibrated motion code included would be simply natural progression. Motion is simply the last feasible option that we have to get as close to the real thing in the living room, literally.

If you're still convinced that simracing these days is nothing but a mere "game to have fun", then consider this - maybe real life racing is also nothing but a game. :indiff:

I've argued this before but here it goes. Go find someone out there that has never played a video game in their life but drives a car everyday and sit them down to play a racing game. Their probably not going to make it very far without crashing no matter how slow they try and go. I've done this with several people and none of them were any good at all at GT5 or Iracing. People though that have played video games were able to pick it up and make it around the track after awhile. I will consider These games sims when non gamers who can drive can sit down and drive around the track with no problem at all. Until then they are just games but can be driving aides for people who are familiar with games or spend a lot of time teaching themselves how to understand what the game is trying to tell them is going on.

With that said I feel like I am driving a real car when I'm in my seat racing and can tell a big difference between sim racers and arcade games but I have played games my whole life and my brain can trick my body into feeling things that are not really happening to me.

As far as todays tech goes and how real the games are, 15 years from now we will be laughing at how bad todays games look and how bad the physics were on todays racing games. I remember people saying how great GT2 looked and how photorealistic it was and how it was like driving a real car.
 
As far as todays tech goes and how real the games are, 15 years from now we will be laughing at how bad todays games look and how bad the physics were on todays racing games. I remember people saying how great GT2 looked and how photorealistic it was and how it was like driving a real car.

Graphics, sure, I can agree with that. Physics? I don't know about that one. Look back to 1998 when Grand Prix Legends came out, that game is now 14 years old and in many ways the physics is better in that game (without mods) than most of today's racing games.

I agree that these are just games, not sims, they are trying to be sims, but even the "king of sims" iRacing isn't even close to a sim, it's missing many sim aspects that games 20 years ago had.

But back to the motion stuff, I acknowledged that it can be fun, so I'm not completely negative on it. I just think the price:fun ratio is a little bit off, much like spending money on a Frex or ECCI wheel.
 
I've argued this before but here it goes. Go find someone out there that has never played a video game in their life but drives a car everyday and sit them down to play a racing game. Their probably not going to make it very far without crashing no matter how slow they try and go. I've done this with several people and none of them were any good at all at GT5 or Iracing. People though that have played video games were able to pick it up and make it around the track after awhile. I will consider These games sims when non gamers who can drive can sit down and drive around the track with no problem at all. Until then they are just games but can be driving aides for people who are familiar with games or spend a lot of time teaching themselves how to understand what the game is trying to tell them is going on.

With that said I feel like I am driving a real car when I'm in my seat racing and can tell a big difference between sim racers and arcade games but I have played games my whole life and my brain can trick my body into feeling things that are not really happening to me.

As far as todays tech goes and how real the games are, 15 years from now we will be laughing at how bad todays games look and how bad the physics were on todays racing games. I remember people saying how great GT2 looked and how photorealistic it was and how it was like driving a real car.

You made a good point that I initially wanted to make about "getting" or "feeling" the relation between FFB to controlling the car on the panel you're staring into. You're right, I've also yet to find someone who's driven cars for many years AND played video games their whole life - basically nobody get's it. This also applied to me back in the day when I got my first wheel for GT3... I had already been driving real cars for several years and been hugely enthusiastic about proper driving techniques, so I was super excited when I unpacked the DFP and hooked it up. The excitement quickly took a plumet, actually I was pretty ticked off at how "stupid" and "unreal" it felt, I remember putting it down and taking a 2 week break from it. When I came back to it, after reading some tips and reviews, I started to connect throttle and steering inputs, and I quickly learned that I was just being silly with the gas/break pedal... why? because that whole g-force feeling is not present and naturally that's keeping most people from over-driving in real life. It's so easy to misjudge just how much you're moving forward and how hard the cornering forces are on a screen, it just looks so slow on screen (with low hp cars), this is why noobs won't have fun, because everything is new to them, especially FFB, which I have to admit can "seem" to have a mind of it's own.

Sooo, basically what I'm saying is that it's not sims are off, it's that newbies who want to give sims a shot, no matter if it's a DFGT with 15" monitor, or triple-screen with T500 along with the best motion setup, it's the same, that initial learning and adapting curve is crucial. A motion-rig can only aid to those who have completely honed all other aspects, and I would say those with some real life driving/racing experience should be able to completely connect, it is pretty darn accurate these days. That said, because of the missing g-forces, I know I would have an edge in real life (IF there was ever THE perfect simulator), but the virtual competition won't turn reality anytime soon for me. So, it is what you make it, and it's really practicing until the basics become natural, until then it's not really fun anyway.

In 15 years, ya sure I bet there will be improvements in all areas, but there simply won't be anything that could be done to in terms of "putting you in a real racecar", besides possibly the most stunning and realistic 3D displays. Will FFB wheels work in an entirely different way? Will physics be on an entirely different level? Doubt it. I'm quite sure there couldn't be any additional external components to add to the immersion. Again the last resort would be motion, even in 2030. By then Wal-Mart may even have Mickey Mouse gaming chairs with motion for 19.99, that's if the world economy stays afloat. :scared:
 
I think whenever those personal 3D headmounted displays with full wraparound field of view become more prevalent I will get one, then I can look into a motion rig because the view wont need to match the chairs motion.
 
^^ Only problem with one of those is the fact you can't see your wheel, shifter and other stuff you might want to look at. Never mind whatever else is going on around the house.
 
^^ Only problem with one of those is the fact you can't see your wheel, shifter and other stuff you might want to look at. Never mind whatever else is going on around the house.

I think that's the biggest problem as well. I love the concept, it makes everything so simple, but if you can't see the keyboard, steering wheel, button box, or whatever else you need to see, how will you play the game?

Of course some games, like Diablo 3 I have everything programmed to my mouse except for the shift key, so that could be done, but other more complex games would be tough.
 
Those are simple problems that will be quickly fixed when the technology is more available. Before you question how exactly, know that there is a solution for everything. just spitballing here i'd throw out an idea like the drivers hands in the game become your hands. i dont know, they'll figure it out. point is, being IN the game, coupled with movement effects is where we are headed in the future. cant think of any other way to create more immersion than that.
Edit: also, who wants to look at their crummy sim wheel when you can look at the actual race car wheel modeled in 3D virtual reality. makes buying an expensive sim wheel unnessary! Say you are in a virtual world driving a McLaren, wouldnt you rather be looking at the McLarens wheel instead of your old G27?
 
Back