Motorsport Conspiracies

  • Thread starter Liquid
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Liquid
Can you just... comprehend what Hill might have done in those last two seasons with those superb McLarens?
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He probably would have held his own against Hakkinen, but I think Hakkinen would have had the upper hand.
 
Here's one that has started building up in the past few hours, with confirmation that Yasuhisa Arai is leaving Honda's Formula One program: that a faction within Honda's Tochigi skunkworks saw the development the RA616H Hybrid would not meet its performance targets, and so lobbied to change focus. When Arai rejected the proposal, the faction got the blessing of a few ultra-senior members of the corporate hierarchy to develop their vision of the engine completely off the books, and when they demonstrated the performance of the second-generation RA616H, they got approval to put it into production and Arai was removed from his position.
 
Probably reading A LOT more into something innocent than most, but has anyone watched the "Speed with Guy Martin F1 Special"? David Coulthard is in the 2012 RB8, which I believe was the (or one of many!) seasons Red Bull came under fire for potentially running traction control. Just before he heads out for the race, a mechanic asks DC whether he still wants to keep in some traction...

I thought I would mention it for the conspirators among us, purely because I still don't think they ran a traction control system despite the apparent evidence at the time. I also expect that traction control could easily have been added at a later date and easily via software. But hey, it might give us something to talk about for a couple of minutes again!!!
 
Pezzarinho17
Probably reading A LOT more into something innocent than most, but has anyone watched the "Speed with Guy Martin F1 Special"? David Coulthard is in the 2012 RB8, which I believe was the (or one of many!) seasons Red Bull came under fire for potentially running traction control. Just before he heads out for the race, a mechanic asks DC whether he still wants to keep in some traction...

I thought I would mention it for the conspirators among us, purely because I still don't think they ran a traction control system despite the apparent evidence at the time. I also expect that traction control could easily have been added at a later date and easily via software. But hey, it might give us something to talk about for a couple of minutes again!!!
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What evidence? They didn't need traction control due to off throttle mapping still having some significance and RBR still finding a method that was still effective to create an EDB like effect. Just using conoda exhaust due to the regs.
 
This is the main case for Red Bull having traction control that I can remember:



There were others though, I'm sure. One even involved the system only being available to Vettel. Although all the teams were using trick exhausts, it wouldn't have affected the Red Bull above under acceleration. Plus the coanda effect and EBD were never referred to as a "traction" like it was by the engineer.
 
Pezzarinho17
This is the main case for Red Bull having traction control that I can remember:



There were others though, I'm sure. One even involved the system only being available to Vettel. Although all the teams were using trick exhausts, it wouldn't have affected the Red Bull above under acceleration. Plus the coanda effect and EBD were never referred to as a "traction" like it was by the engineer.
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How do you know it was never referred to that? It could of been a term used by DC to the engineer, it could have been a term only by the engineer, who is to say. It doesn't make sense that they would openly say things like that. It could also be a software setting for the suspension, or it could of been diff setting.

The video above shows what? A TC how? If anything it's probably the map being run (as I said) cause that does effect acceleration due to retarding of the system, or the fact the turn is bumpy and the car is trying to get traction yet spinning the wheels. It's even more ironic the evidence used to try and prove or give inclination of such a thing, is under the use of Mark Webber...the worst starter in the last 5-8 years of F1. If anyone would have contributed from TC it'd have been him.

You'd be better off picking up where Minardi left of in 2014 with better yet unfounded accusations of TC during the second half of that season.
 
If you read my first comment again, I'm not buying it and just thought the term being discussed was interesting. Given Red Bulls dominance in the era, people were looking at anything they could to explain their incredible pace.

Skip to 39:15 if you want to see the exact interaction I was interested in.


"Do you still want to run with some traction?"

They aren't talking about figures (i.e full traction from a setting), it is clearly something either on or off. Again, there is no suggestion that DC running traction control at a Channel 4 TV event in a 4 year old car would instantly mean Red Bull were using the system in F1 at the time, but I'm surprised that none of those convinced they were have picked this up now as further fuel to the fire.

The video above was widely spread by such people. The theory was that the only way Webber could have left "dashed" tyre marks that would be either because he was insanely fast reacting with the throttle pedal, or the team were using traction control. The wheels would spin (causing the tyres to leave marks), activating traction control (limiting throttle, stopping the wheels from spinning and the tyres from leaving marks) before throttle was restored and the marks began again. Others argued (as you have above) that the alternating marks were due to the bumpy track surface, but the team themselves put it down to oscillation from the drive train itself.

Here is another link, again Red Bull and traction control. This is the event I was thinking of earlier when I mentioned a theory being that only Vettel had the system based on when he was able to accelerate from a corner... Again, I'm not buying it, just discussion fodder given the conspiracy lasted for such a long time in Formula 1.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/red-bulls-traction-secret-revealed/
 
Pezzarinho17
"Do you still want to run with some traction?"
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Traction != traction control - as @LMSCorvetteGT2 said it could refer to any number of things.

Pezzarinho17
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/red-bulls-traction-secret-revealed/
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Racecar Engineering
This is highly unlikely and it is probable that those suggesting that the RB9 runs TC lack understanding of how such systems work, especially considering that all cars run identical TAG 320 ECU’s.
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Quite. :)
 
Pezzarinho17
If you read my first comment again, I'm not buying it and just thought the term being discussed was interesting. Given Red Bulls dominance in the era, people were looking at anything they could to explain their incredible pace.
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I know but you defending the quote suggests you yourself believe it to some extent. Thus you say one thing and imply something else.


"Do you still want to run with some traction?"

They aren't talking about figures (i.e full traction from a setting), it is clearly something either on or off. Again, there is no suggestion that DC running traction control at a Channel 4 TV event in a 4 year old car would instantly mean Red Bull were using the system in F1 at the time, but I'm surprised that none of those convinced they were have picked this up now as further fuel to the fire.
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No it's not, you just quoted it yourself and yet still are fudging with interpretation? It isn't clearly something on or off, he says "some" meaning a varying degree not simply on or off, not black and white as you seem to put it.

The video above was widely spread by such people. The theory was that the only way Webber could have left "dashed" tyre marks that would be either because he was insanely fast reacting with the throttle pedal, or the team were using traction control. The wheels would spin (causing the tyres to leave marks), activating traction control (limiting throttle, stopping the wheels from spinning and the tyres from leaving marks) before throttle was restored and the marks began again. Others argued (as you have above) that the alternating marks were due to the bumpy track surface, but the team themselves put it down to oscillation from the drive train itself.
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Or he's a race driver of many years over varying pedigrees of racing and thus simply adjusted his inputs to stop the wheel spin. It's not indefinite just cause it lacks TC...

Along with either surface or oscillation which is actually not hard to believe.
 
:banghead:

Feeling like this thread should make it clear that if you raise a conspiracy for debate, you must suddenly be prepared to believe and defend it.

I watched a show, something said in it took me back some years to a common conspiracy (honestly, just google Red Bull traction control - I haven't made this all up), I posted a balanced argument because it wouldn't make sense just talking about what I actually believe. "Hey, do you remember when Webber accelerated on a bumpy circuit? Crazy!"
 
TenEightyOne
Oh come on, surely it's time for the Mercedes Destroy Lewis Hamilton's Race Chance To Favour ze German?
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Goes in the same category as when some people (mostly Finnish from what I've understood) said that Ferrari gave Räikkönen the car which had more mechanical issues and general bad luck last year.
 
DK
As is Sky giving that conspiracy theory some oxygen.
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Didn't notice that, but then I guess I've been desensitised from Sky's bias towards British drivers.
 
TenEightyOne
Nobody does nepotistic jingoism like the British Motorsport family :D
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Funny how there were very few complaints about Murray Walker's obvious cronyism for Damon Hill back in the day. Has the audience moved on so that they no longer tolerate stuff like that or did Murray get away with it because he did it in his own inimitable way?
 
Liquid
Funny how there were very few complaints about Murray Walker's obvious cronyism for Damon Hill back in the day. Has the audience moved on so that they no longer tolerate stuff like that or did Murray get away with it because he did it in his own inimitable way?
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Good point! Maybe it's because the British Sky feed is broadcast in so many countries now? Just a guess though.
 
Liquid
Funny how there were very few complaints about Murray Walker's obvious cronyism for Damon Hill back in the day. Has the audience moved on so that they no longer tolerate stuff like that or did Murray get away with it because he did it in his own inimitable way?
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Definitely the latter I think. Murrary's endearing ways mean absolutely none of the usual commentary rules apply to him, and probably never will :D

To take the extreme cases, Suzuka 1996 always makes me smile. Hungary 2006 always makes me barf.
 
I think there is a slight difference in that Murray Walker had watched Damon Hill grow up within the paddock from a young lad and knew him and the family very well. With the current British drivers, the only connection is nationality and that seems to send our media into some kind of frenzy...
 
Pezzarinho17
I think there is a slight difference in that Murray Walker had watched Damon Hill grow up within the paddock from a young lad and knew him and the family very well. With the current British drivers, the only connection is nationality and that seems to send our media into some kind of frenzy...
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They know Jolyon Palmer, which is probably why they push him so much. I have never known a driver who qualified eighteenth on regular basis to get the first interviews and more air time than the guy on pole.

Weirdly enough, they don't seem to care for Jenson Button. Sure, they'll interview him when and where they can, but there's none of the cult of personality that surrounds Hamilton and Palmer.
 
TenEightyOne
Oh come on, surely it's time for the Mercedes Destroy Lewis Hamilton's Race Chance To Favour ze German?
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Yeah but they (Mercedes) were supposedly doing this in 2014 as well, it's just rehashed party bits from then two years later. The only shining light for those using them is the fact that it doesn't seem like Lewis may ever recover, too bad my Calendar says there is 17 races to go.

prisonermonkeys
They know Jolyon Palmer, which is probably why they push him so much. I have never known a driver who qualified eighteenth on regular basis to get the first interviews and more air time than the guy on pole.

Weirdly enough, they don't seem to care for Jenson Button. Sure, they'll interview him when and where they can, but there's none of the cult of personality that surrounds Hamilton and Palmer.
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What's sad about this is when you have one the major pundits and former F1 driver (who failed) to call for his retirement along with his team mate. And then shift comments at 3wdcs between the two on how they more or less don't know what they're doing out there.
 
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LMSCorvetteGT2
What's sad about this is when you have one the major pundits and former F1 driver (who failed) to call for his retirement along with his team mate. And then shift comments at 3wdcs between the two on how they more or less don't know what they're doing out there.
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A lot of Herbert's comments feel like he's trying to lay the groundwork for later - so that if Button and/or Alonso go at the end of the year, Sky can then say "Johnny called it".
 

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