Mr. Yamauchi, Porsche "derivatives"? Please?

[Ride]

Turn 10 paid EA for a sub-license to include Porsche in Forza Motorsport. PD could have done the same.

...and what if EA didn't want PD's money?

 

[speedrcr]

...and what if EA didn't want PD's money?

Good question, in essence that would have been the corporate strategy move.

:idea:Another theory if we want to talk about corporate strategy is that EA and PD could have been in talks (or at least leading them on).
Understanding how EA has worked in the past*, I could see them holding to the last minute wasting PD's time so they didn't have enough time to then seek alternatives like Gemballa, or more RUF's.

That's a scenario that plays too often in the corporate world in general, delay your competition and hold out till their manufacturing deadline so their product doesn't have that competitive, similar aspect, or feature to your's, in essence cheating the consumer out of what could be possibly a better product or experience.

*BACKGROUND:Myself and friends have worked as IT, developers, or project managers here in Austin either directly with EA, companies that got bought out by EA, or companies that worked with EA on games. Knowing about the "back office" side of things; EA is greedy, cut-throat and will stab your mom in the back in clear daylight for a buck. Most here would agree that know about EA's business dealings and how well they treat their employees middle management and below. Not disgruntled, just enlightened from experience. I still play 1 or 2 of their games and like them, just don't like the name printed on them.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

...and what if EA didn't want PD's money?

I guess no one other than EA and T10 know the specifics of their deal. It could have stipulated platform exclusivity in regards to the sub-license.

Ultimately though I suspect PD decided against paying EA because they probably estimated that any increased sales wouldn't offset the license cost. T10 on the other hand is playing catch up with GT so any advantage to set it self apart is crucial.

Also you should remember that Sony used to have the Porsche license (Porsche Challenge by SCEE). I'm quite surprised they let it go.

 

[column5]

I guess no one other than EA and T10 know the specifics of their deal. It could have stipulated platform exclusivity in regards to the sub-license.

I was about to post this same thing. I suspect some sort of exclusivity deal so that now only Microsoft and EA games can include Porsche.

 

[BlueSky]

...and what if EA didn't want PD's money?

Good point. I suppose that is a possibility and we'll never really know for sure unless someone from PD or EA speak out about it. If that is the case, let's just hope they can work something out before GT6 is released.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

Whether one likes Porsche or not is a different question, but they sure have a rank in the automotive world one can not blatantly ignore forever.

I don`t like Porsche and I don`t bother whether there are 911s or not, but I would kill to drive a 917 in GT5!
And for me, every european sports car company is welcome in GT5, just to balance the skyline/350z/nsx/s2000/miatas/rx7 clone - unique car quote.

It seems like EA prevented PD from using Porsche or PD wasn`t willing to spend money for the license.
You just should be careful, I doubt that Kazunori is always telling the truth.

Remember when he said that he was only allowed to add the F10 in GT5 because Ferrari got a exclusive deal with FOM which allows them to use the car in any videogame they want? Still rFactor and LFS got BMW Sauber cars (which were new back then) and iRacing has a Williams.

I wouldn`t be suprised if Kaz decided to drop Porsche because it has no real impact on sales.

 

[cleanLX]

RUF gets unmarked bodies/chassis from Porsche and then builds a car, they are considered a manufacturer and as such stamp their own serial numbers to the vehicle.

The other "tuners" are simply that, you take your Porsche (with Porsche ser #) to them to have it modified.
The vehicle is still a Porsche.

 

[Luminis]

This sums it up perfectly well, in my opinion:

 

[speedrcr]

This sums it up perfectly well, in my opinion:

+1 on that! 👍

Nothing like RR engineering

 

[the Interceptor]

RUF gets unmarked bodies/chassis from Porsche and then builds a car, they are considered a manufacturer and as such stamp their own serial numbers to the vehicle.

The other "tuners" are simply that, you take your Porsche (with Porsche ser #) to them to have it modified.
The vehicle is still a Porsche.

Quite the contrary is the case, as I explained earlier. The original manufacturer, in this case Porsche, even enjoins tuners who operate as manufacturers under German law to sell their cars as Porsches.

 

[ShterfenShteif]

Mine's, Toms, Mugen, AEM are tuning names.

RUF is considered it's own automobile manufacturer.

Porsche is still Porsche, doesn't matter who tuned it.

 

[the Interceptor]

Sometimes I ask myself why I bother at all. You can read, yes?

 

[cleanLX]

Yes, we can all read, and while these "tuners" might offer the car as their own, it still has a Porsche serial number... so it will always be a Porsche.


Tell me you grasp that.

 

[johnnutz]

It seems clear that PD doesn't dwell too long on these things. If there are significant obstacles to the inclusion of a brand they pass. Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche were contacted for GT4. All three companies said no. PD accepted this and moved on without wringing their hands over it.

I'm not saying that, with GT5, there was no extra effort to get Porsche. However, with so many cars in the game, PD does not worry too much about adding a few more.

 

[the Interceptor]

Even if it still bears a Porsche serial number, does that matter? Porsche excplicitly forbids to call it a Porsche, Porsche doesn't service it anymore or recognize it in any other way as a Porsche, so why would they care if it appears in a game?

 

[cleanLX]

Probably because at the end of the day it is still a Prosche with a Porsche ser #.
It is insured as a Porsche and registered as a Porsche... even if Porsche no longer wants anything to do with it... like it or not it is still a Porsche, and therefore not in the game because Porsche is not.
If I were Porsche, I would have nothing to do with service or warrenty on a heavily modified vehicle either, whether it was Joe down the street or a known tuner.

 

[Sele1981]

I have a feeling that PD/Sony will not "waste" their money for licenses. So if you look at GT5, we have 800 old cars wich are already licensed from other GT games and then we´ve got ~150 old premium cars wich we´ve seen in old GT games but now as premium models...

In fact, PD only invested money in Ferrari and Lamborghini licenses... A great + for sure but also frustrating to have an Ferrari/Lambo license but only have ~10-15 of them.

I don´t know if it costs extra money to implement cars from manufacteres wich are already in the game? I think so because there must be some reason that we get only old cars from BMW, VW, Audi and so on...

That must also be the reason why there are no new RUF´s in the game, only the old GT4 models...

 

[the Interceptor]

Probably because at the end of the day it is still a Prosche with a Porsche ser #.
It is insured as a Porsche and registered as a Porsche... even if Porsche no longer wants anything to do with it... like it or not it is still a Porsche, and therefore not in the game because Porsche is not.
If I were Porsche, I would have nothing to do with service or warrenty on a heavily modified vehicle either, whether it was Joe down the street or a known tuner.

When you either buy a car from one of those tuners which are registered as a manufacturer or when you bring them your Porsche to have it "heavily modified" (to an extent the tuner is forced to classify it as one of his own), it gets new papers with said tuner/manufacturer listed as the producer of the car. Porsche is not listed as the manufacturer of the car in its papers anymore, and it's not insured as a Porsche anymore either. Therefore, it is not a Porsche anymore.

 

[cuco33]

RUF is not Porsche, but RUF does use Porsche parts. When Porsche finishes building a Porsche, they 'certify it' and slap a VIN serial number on it. When RUF buys Porsche bits, even if it's a 911 turbo car but in pieces, the chassis doesn't go to RUF with a serialized VIN number. RUF takes these bits and builds their own car. RUF then 'certifies' the new car and slaps their VIN number on it. RUF is noted to be the manufacturer, not Porsche. Porsche doesn't have to do anything if a RUF owner wants to make a warranty claim. They would have to go to RUF for that.

Personally... I want PORSCHE, not just the tuning firms or companies like RUF. PORSCHE was already a dominant force in motorsports long before these tuner companies/builders even existed. Way too many classic Porsches that no tuner has ever, and will never touch. If PD brings Porsche via DLC... I'll be day 1 and drooling like a kid in a candy store.

 

[cleanLX]

n/m

 

[RustyNut]

Interesting post, bear in mind though that RUF (and one or two others) aren't simply tuners, they construct the cars from scratch using moulds etc. provided by Porsche (if memory serves) which is why they can apparently be included in GT. Some of the companies you mention simply tune new Porsches, but it's still really a Porsche, and EA's lawyers would no doubt be watching 👎

By the way, it's considered impolite to address a Japanese man by his last name only, I guess more so when you call him "Yamaguchi"

RUF doesn't make the bodies, they get them from Porsche fresh from the moulds, they come completely unmarked from porsche.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

Even if it still bears a Porsche serial number, does that matter? Porsche excplicitly forbids to call it a Porsche, Porsche doesn't service it anymore or recognize it in any other way as a Porsche, so why would they care if it appears in a game?

Unless it becomes a kit car (for example Ferrari bodied MR2's) it is still a Porsche. The EA license will likely stipulate all cars manufactured by Porsche and still being classed as Porsche on their log books regardless of modification to prevent any loopholes in the licensing which would effectively make their deal worthless.

We can debate it until the cows come home but unless any of us see the contracts between Porsche and EA and have the legal expertise to analyse them or a legal case is argued in court, I think it's safe to assume from the lack of 'loophole' cars in the game that those of us saying why it can't be done are right by default.

 

[the Interceptor]

I would agree to that if there would be any progress in GT5 in regards of RUF. Since there only are the default ports from previous games however, I could just as well conclude that PD simply doesn't feel a lot of pressure to fill the hole Porsche left, so they just couldn't be bothered to find more Porsche-like derivates.

It's true that we will likely never know, and it's true that RUF may be the only special case where they're allowed to include cars. But evidence for that, may it be directly or indirectly, I don't see.

 

[Luminis]

Unless it becomes a kit car (for example Ferrari bodied MR2's) it is still a Porsche.

Sigh... The usual RUF/Porsche discussion. Where do you guys get your information, I wonder?

Anyways... Porsche uses a vehicle identification number that starts with WPO, for Porsche. That is the VIN every Porsche comes with. Each and every Porsche. All cars made by Porsche have a VIN that starts with WPO. If it doesn't, it's not recognised as a Porsche by any kind of legal authority.

Now, cars made by RUF (made by, not modified by) wear a VIN that starts with W09, which is used for German manufacturers with small production runs.
A car manufacturerd by RUF doesn't wear Porsche's VIN and thus, isn't a Porsche by legal definition.
The only possibility for Porsche to have any influence on whether a RUF appears in Gran Turismo would be to ask RUF not to allow it. They'd probably follow suit, but Porsche still has no authority on it.

TL;DR:
RUF doesn't use VINs that start with WPO, so they're not a Porsche.

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

Ruf Automobile is in the game due to a loophole in German law (it is a German manufacturer). They are considered a separate manufacturer in Germany.

I am assuming business law in other countries prevent a Spoon rebadged 911 (not a German company, for instance) being in the game.

I grow tired of people just being lazy and criticizing Kaz for being too Japan-centric or not caring about great cars from the rest of the world. You really think they would omit something classic like a 917K Short Tail from the game if they had the choice?

 

[Luminis]

I am assuming business law in other countries prevent a Spoon rebadged 911 (not a German company, for instance) being in the game.

The badge on the car doesn't matter in Germany, either. You could put any badge you like on a 911 and it would still be conidered a Porsche.

Due to the fact that the cars manufacturered by RUF haven't been a functional car before they are assembled by RUF, they're not branded with Porsche's VIN, but with RUF's instead.
Now, if RUF tunes a Porsche, it might get a RUF badge, but if it left a Porsche factory as a functional car, it will have a Porsche VIN and will be considered a Porsche, despite the badge it wears.

In German law, it doesn't matter who's supllying you with the parts for the car, all that matters is the VIN. A Lotus, for example, comes with a Toyota engine, but that doesn't make it a Toyota. Same with RUF. Just because it's based on parts manufacturerd by Porsche, it's not a Porsche.

 

[the Interceptor]

I grow tired of people just being lazy and criticizing Kaz for being too Japan-centric or not caring about great cars from the rest of the world. You really think they would omit something classic like a 917K Short Tail from the game if they had the choice?

Since PD ignores a lot of classic automotive gems, that's entirely possible, yes.

 

[Verbal]

Sigh... The usual RUF/Porsche discussion. Where do you guys get your information, I wonder?

Anyways... Porsche uses a vehicle identification number that starts with WPO, for Porsche.

BTW it's not WPO but WP0 (zero).

 

[Luminis]

BTW it's not WPO but WP0 (zero).

MY bad, sorry. Kinda had it stuck as WPO in my head.

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

Since PD ignores a lot of classic automotive gems, that's entirely possible, yes.

If you really thinks so you're stupid (sorry but I think it) and you didnt really understand Kaz personality. He's a car lover.