NASCAR Road Racing and "Hired Guns" - Good Idea or Bad Idea?

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JohnBM01

JohnBM01

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After a real race is complete (24 Hours of Le Mans), NASCAR races a track that is wonderful for road racing in America- Sears Point. Or as it's commonly called nowadays, Infineon Raceway. The race remains the Dodge/Save Mart 350 hosted by the NASCAR Nextel Cup series. When I was first into NASCAR, my favorite driver, Jeff Gordon, was able to win five consectutive road races. It's still a record in the series. Everyone is expected to be a stellar NASCAR racer in just about every track they race, right? Well with some teams, no. Some drivers just aren't road racers in NASCAR. So teams have some "hired guns" to take the place of oval racing veterans. I think they are even called "wringers," the term for a road racing star substituting for a NASCAR oval racer. So this is the question I ask all of you- do you think it is a good idea for inexperienced NASCAR racers to hire road racers for the road racing events?

I'll start.

A number of NASCAR stars have gone to racing schools like Bob Bondurant's School of Driving for road racing experience. People will criticize that a racer learns how to compete in left and right turns, but chooses oval racing for a pro life in racing. One person really p*ssed me off about road racing. NASCAR star Jimmy Spencer once said that if he were in charge of road courses, he'd (indirect quote) "tear them down and use them as bomb testing sites." Even if I raced ovals for a living, I still know that I want to be challenged on road courses as well as ovals. I am a dedicated road racing guy. I've loved road racing all of my life and would never trade it for some oval action. I likely wouldn't even race an all-or-mostly oval racing series full-time if I wasn't committed to ovals. I wouldn't race a road racing series if I wasn't committed to road courses. I applauded NASCAR when they race at Sears Point and Watkins Glen (though I like Sears Point better). I even applauded NASCAR when they raced outside of America on a road course with another former F1 course in Mexico City. NASCAR Busch racers are going to have to compete on Sears Point and Watkins Glen in Cup, so this is a nice proving ground heading into the other events. I think NASCAR Busch once raced Lime Rock Park, which is my idea of short track racing.

How many of you realize that I didn't fully answer my own question up to this point? Well this is where I sound off. If you ask me, you're a racer when you step up to the plate in any discipline of motorsport. Any circuit racing series will throw in these extra challenges. So you need to be ready whenever called for action. As much as I don't care much about NASCAR, they are doing nothing wrong with the oval and road racing challenge. I'm not going to say they don't need to run road courses. This is just testament to the fact that even though ovals is the name of the game, they are still racers. I'd rather be reminded of my racing roots by testing left and right turns than to just say I'm a racer and fail in the challenge of road racing. Why should I hire a road racing expert to help me in road racing an oval racing car when I can't road race myself in this scenario? I think (then) CART had the best formula for a combination of road racing and oval racing. Champ Cars race around road courses, street courses, and ovals. That's great parity in racing challenge. You need to be good in road and oval racing to do successful in Champ Car since there is a nicer balance of the two disciplines. I'd do go-kart racing to aid in road racing skills. Sure, I'm racing a 10 or 20hp hunk of metal around a very short and narrow track. But Memo Gidley said in Road and Track Magazine that you can learn everything about racing a Champ Car in a small go-kart. Attend the racing schools. Do some go-karting on road course tracks. Be a better driver on the road. Do some practice runs in road racing... and you'll be just fine in NASCAR doing road courses. Or you can just pull a Jimmy Spencer and p:censored: out of road races in NASCAR. I think racers should be able to get some extra training without the aid of some other established road racers. It doesn't hurt to boost your experience in racing even if road courses aren't raced often. If you really just CANNOT do road racing, then you're free to find someone else to do it.

Simple. Now it's your turn, GTP people.
 
Today... Any NASCAR driver who wants to make The Chase cannot afford to sit out a road race and give up valuable points. That season format has forced more NASCAR drivers to improve their road racing skills.

I have no problem with drivers getting road course ringers to replace them. However, I'd have much more respect for them if they ran the road races themselves.
 
I do agree about stepping up to the plate in any discipline of motorsport. as for whether its good or bad idea to have "Road Course Wringers"(which is really what the thread should have instead of "hired Guns"), I kind of neutral because it does help to have someone more experianced to take the helm, but at the same time, there aren't many adept drivers like Tony stewart and Dale Earnhardt Jr.
 
The road course ringers used to make a big deal. A huge deal, just look at Ron Fellows' success in the Truck series in the late '90's. Today, however... with the great emphasis on road course racing, especially with the addition of the race for the chase deal, ringers are less important. Guys like Scott Pruett, Boris Said, Ron Fellows, and to a lesser extent P.J. Jones have not seen near the amount of success in recent years as they did in the past. The most impactful of the group TODAY in my opinion has to be Boris. That is because he is racing the stock cars on ovals now too. If you aren't, what I would describe as, another part of the car (in terms of experience) you don't have as great a shot. If you took any of the ringers and put them in equal cars that they have an equal amount of experience on and raced them on a fairly simple road coarse there is no doubt in my mind that the ringer would win. But because these guys race 2-4 road courses a year (cup and grand national total) they haven't a chance in my opinion, at being nearly as successful as the breed once was in NASCAR. Especially if these drivers are getting second rate cars. Look at Ron Fellows, when he drove the #1 car at Watkins last year he was dominant. In qualifying he wasn't quite used to the car and failed miserably. But come green flag he, from 42nd was the most consistant driver, and fastest, and fought back to finnish 2nd. What kind of a mention did this impressive performance garner from the commentators? Little to none, maybe a "Oh, there is Ron Fellows in second." "Yeah, he sure is good, that's impressive." That was about the end of it. How is this relevant, Ron Fellows was given a DEI car, one of the top 20 cars (does that sound reasonable?) in NASCAR. Good or Bad idea? If you are an owner who is in danger of falling out of the top 35 or 36 (whatever the guaranteed start position in their dumb rules is) yeah. You're gonna want a Boris Said in the car. But if you are in the top 10-20 you are gonna want to have your driver get as many points he can each weekend. So, it really depends.

m.piedgros
 
More and more NASCAR racers are coming from other forms of racing that do teach the importance of turning right. Tony Stewart, Jimmie Johnson, Jeff Gordon, Robby Gordon, etc, all have diverse racing backgrounds. To doubt their skill is foolish. Hell, Tony Stewart won at Sears Point last year, while holding the car in gear with one hand and steering with the other. That's impressive.

However, I still laugh my ass off when Ron Fellows jumps into a car he's never driven and finishes second. Same for Boris Said and Scott Pruett. I love the ringers; let's keep 'em :)
 
First off, it will always be "Sears Point" to me. To hell with "Infineon Raceway." Second, Jimmy Spencer only said that because he sucks at road racing. Heck, he sucked at oval racing too. His only two wins were Daytona and Talladega (1994), tracks that don't exactly take that much talent to compete at. Keep the gas pedal floored and turn left.

Sears Point and Watkins Glen are about the only two NASCAR races I can stand to watch from start to finish. (Bristol and the Daytona 500 are the others.) That's where the NASCAR drivers become real race car drivers. Only problem: WAY too many full-course cautions. A guys slides off the track and, where there should only be a local yellow, they call for the FCY.

Like kylehnat said, I laugh my ass off when someone like Ron Fellows jumps in a NASCAR car and takes it to the front. Of course, NASCAR will never let one of those guys actually win a Cup race. [Redneck accent]Wouldn't want our boys to get beat by some quiche-eating, namby-pamby road racer, especially (GASP) a foreigner.[/Redneck accent] :D
 
The informal name given to road racers are "wine and cheese" racers. Almost as if road racers are really rich people who own some exotic muscle. So what's the NASCAR crowd? [American] Beer and pork rinds?

Unless you were raised on ovals, it's almost inexcusable to not be a good road racer. I think people need to learn left and right racing, even if they are going to take on an oval challenge. Look at Tomas Enge. He has a boatload of road racing experience despite racing in the IndyCar Series (they race at Watkins Glen this weekend, as a matter of fact). Some stock car racing which has a nicer number of road courses is Canada's CASCAR series. They race on most of the Canadian street courses as well as the tricky Mosport track. They even raced in the rain with rain tires for road courses once. Back to America. NASCAR used to race Riverside, which had to be hellishly popular in the past. I even have an old thread in this forum about Riverside. So it isn't like NASCAR avoids road courses altogether. Personally, I'd be interested to see how those 43 stock cars would do at a "little" track called... Sebring. One thing NASCAR won't have to worry about is too many elevation changes since most of the course is flat. I wonder if they'll have to go with restrictor plates (many long for suggestions on getting rid of restrictor plates) if there was this hypothetical road race at Sebring...

Anyhow, this is really one thing to applaud NASCAR for. They are providing a road racing challenge. And if you ask me, the Chase for the Cup should feature a road course. That's even if they have to go to Daytona to road race like the IROC racers will do later this month or next. You know, EARN your pay. Or why not make the Nextel Cup Chase finale at Road America, Road Atlanta, Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course, or some other road course?

Hired guns in NASCAR for road races. Your views and comments are welcome.
 
First of all Mulsanne! I have a redneck accent *fistskake*, lol. I agree 100% with you though.

m.piedgros

EDIT: I think CASCAR only does two road courses. Toronto (a downtown circuit 👎) and Mosport (a personal favorite track of mine. Now, I've only been to Mosport once, and I can hardly remember my trip there, it was a WSC race in like '97 or '98 [7 or 8 y/o] and all I remember was it being foggy and dark as well as falling in love with the Riley & Scott... either Olds or Ford, can't remember off the top of my head. P.S. Canadian driver Ron Fellows won the event in his 333s/p followed by three other Ferrari's and then the two Riley & Scotts.) So not knocking you on the numbers deal but there are a couple good tracks in Canada Three Rivers, and Mount Tremblant just to name two others. I think if NASCAR went to Canada (unrelated subject, I apologize) they would probably go to one of those three circuits or just put the Craftsman trucks on a short track. Does Canada have a Speedway 1.5 miles, or Super Speedway2.5 miles?
 
This has no relevance to the issue at hand... former two-time(?) IRL champion Tony Stewart was badly hurt a week or so ago. When he raced Dover this weekend, he handed over driving duties to Ricky Rudd. Speed Channel show "WindTunnel with Dave Despain" featured this question: "Does Tony Stewart still deserve receiving points even though he switched drivers?" I still think he deserves points even though someone substituted for him during the race. He's a punk sometimes, but I respect him for his on-track talent. NASCAR is basically evolving into a stick-and-ball sport, but there is an aspect to most sports. Players may get injured and need replacements. NASCAR is no different. T. Stewart was still banged up but still raced on. You can't say he gave up, though. The man was hurt long ago and still smarting.

So how does this tie into this argument of NASCAR road racing? You'd may as well say that substituting dedicated oval racers for dedicated road racers is just as bad as what people said about Tony Stewart when he had Ricky Rudd substitute for him during the race. And that's basically what it is- road racers making subbing in oval racers. Stock car racers are racers anyways. And if they are going to be racing road course events, they need to do more road racing. Why don't they look to the France-owned (as in Bill France) Rolex Sports Car Series? I'm talking about the NASCAR racers which are horrible in NASCAR road racing. I'm not talking about the likes of Jeff Gordon or whatever. Daytona Prototypes would likely be the favored series for NASCAR road racers to compete in since they are used to high-horsepowered machines. Either that, or bring back Trans-Am (what I'd love to see. I'm already missing the sound of those V8's humming around race tracks in America and Canada).

My view on all of this has been "be brave, be a racer, be a competitor, RACE THE DAMN EVENT!" Don't be afraid or intimidated by road courses if you're not used to them. I think it's almost inexcusable to be a racer and not know road course racing or be comfortable with them. I'm a committed road racing guy. Hell, the IRL (to my knowledge) didn't have any drivers substitute for dedicated IRL oval racers at Watkins Glen, so why NASCAR? I think if you want to win a championship in NASCAR's semi-playoff format, why not do well on every course offered? A street course race with NASCAR would be pretty unrealistic since there are 43 to a track and you don't see too many cars on one street course all at once. But just imagine if there was a street race for 43 NASCAR race cars on the track. The one thing you have to worry about is that the track can narrow up quite well. But just think of the ones not used to narrow courses and the intensity of street course racing. Hire somebody or do it yourself? Life's full of choices and so is racing.
 
I'll bet I'm the only guy here who thinks that "Infineon Raceway" sounds better. :lol: Maybe it's because I'm a rules-stickler and, like it or lump it, that's the track's official name. *shrugs*

I'm horribly torn between the issue. On the one hand, if you really don't have the skills necessary to run on a road course, I would daresay that it's SMART to wait it out, until you acquire said skills. A competitive spirit is great and all, but safety comes first.

...However, I absolutely love watching the designated hitters strap into the cars and kick ass, same as many of you. They always seem to make the cars look like they belong on those twisties.

One other thing I think should be mentioned. Like it or not, oval racing is a meritable discipline in its own right. It's not "easy" or "simple" (not quoting anyone here, just repeating epithets I've heard in the past) in any way. I don't see a problem with choosing to focus on it.
 
Under NASCAR rules... A driver may still earn points if he starts the race.

In Tony Stewart's case, he still earns his points today since he started the race (even though Ricky Rudd had to replace him during the first pit stop).

This issue doesn't come up when NASCAR teams hire road course ringers since the ringers start the race.
 
m.piedgros
First of all Mulsanne! I have a redneck accent *fistskake*, lol. I agree 100% with you though.

m.piedgros
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No offense intended. :) My family has a mild case of redneck, so I don't feel too bad. The only traces of it in me are that I drive a pickup truck and listen to country music (along with classical, rock, metal, oldies, jazz, etc.). But my brother and sister drive "them big-ol' trucks" and spend their Saturday nights watching trucks go through a mudhole. I don't get it, but different strokes... :)

And (going back on topic) I agree with you John. You can't call yourself a real race car driver unless you occasionally turn right.
 
Spot on Mulsanne! (Does that rhyme or am I crazy? Response: Well, you're crazy but that's not the issue at hand!) Sorry, I'm a little nuts today. (<-- Just got a WHOLE bunch of work off my plate and I can see the end of school on the horizon, but in the way are some big stupid exams 👎!) Anyway... I was at Watkins this weekend and I didn't see the NASCAR race (not that I would have watched a whole lot of it anyway) but was Tony (Stewart, duh) not wearing a helmet for his, uh... stint(?) in the car?

m.piedgros
 
Every NASCAR driver is required to wear a full-protective helmet and a HANS device. Tony Stewart obviously just took that stuff off when he made his pit stop so Ricky Rudd could replace him.
 
Thanks for clearing that up. In the selected images the media showed me, I didn't see a helmet and recalled hearing Dave Despain mention something about the guy who used to drive the #1 car with DEI who had the head injury, I can't remember his name right now...

m.piedgros
 
I don't have a problem if a "roadcourse wringer" gets a one race ride if he is givin his own car. I do have a problem when he replaces someone because they won't get better at roadracing.

I am a Nascar fan and I'm a roadracing fan. I enjoy watching nascar and some roadraces. I personally have lots of fun playing nascar games and games where you race on roadcourse I think both have their strong and weak points. I would like to see nascar replace some of the Las Vegas type tracks with some more roadcourse dates.

Thanks for clearing that up. In the selected images the media showed me, I didn't see a helmet and recalled hearing Dave Despain mention something about the guy who used to drive the #1 car with DEI who had the head injury, I can't remember his name right now...
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That would be Steve Park.
 
hmmm. come to think of it, I remember seeing a picture of Max Papis testing the Road racing package of hendrick motorsports at road atlanta. so for anyone who says they want another road course, consider Road Atlanta.
 
Steve Park! His name was on the tip of my tongue, thanks.

m.piedgros

@RACECAR: Apparently before heading up to Watkins this weekend, Boris was testing an MB2 car at Road Atlanta as well. I'd love to see the stock cars on Road Atlanta.
 
Mulsanne
Like kylehnat said, I laugh my ass off when someone like Ron Fellows jumps in a NASCAR car and takes it to the front. Of course, NASCAR will never let one of those guys actually win a Cup race. [Redneck accent]Wouldn't want our boys to get beat by some quiche-eating, namby-pamby road racer, especially (GASP) a foreigner.[/Redneck accent] :D
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Funny cuz I don't recall any road course ringers winning in Nextel Cup in recent history. It takes barely any skill to beat the truck drivers at a road course. that is the lowest of the top racong series in Nascar.
 
There seems to be a select number of us who like NASCAR, but only on road courses. With FOX's "Crank it Up" segment, you could hear the V8 Stock cars humming around northern California. I actually think the cars sounds pretty nice around the road course while shifting the gears. Only thing better is to listen to those Trans-Am cars go around a race track. Just too bad they aren't in business nowadays. I say those cars sound like the awesome Australian V8 Supercars. Only the Aussie V8s are better.

It sucks that I don't have a Cingular Wireless phone because I would have graciously answered "Yes!" to one of those poll questions. One question asked if a "Chase for the Cup" race should feature a road course race. I DEFINITELY agree. The series has a number of different venues to examine. Maybe Round 9 of the Chase would be Homestead while the final race can remain in Florida at either Sebring or Daytona's Road course. Us real racing fans would rather see those 43 zoom around Sebring. Let's examine the two courses. (1) I actually think Sebring would suit the stock cars pretty well. Sebring is a pretty flat course. Can some of you fans imagine 5 or 6 wide on the front straight of Sebring? My only concern about Sebring with stock cars is if the transmissions will be able to hold up. They may have to switch to the debatable plate restrictors around the long straights. (2) Daytona's road course will be raced by the Rolex Sports Car Series and NASC... I mean, IROC. Daytona's road course is the spiritual home of the GARRA. The course itself is a mix of high-banked Americana coupled with the complexity of a demanding road course. I don't know if I'd REALLY call it demanding or not. I just don't want to say it's an easy race course. Only problem with NASCAR at Daytona's road course is if oval racing purists would want to see NASCAR race on one of its classic race courses racing a road course configuration.

Congratulations to the winner of the Dodge/Save Mart 350 at Sears Point. Before I leave, here is a small bit of info. I'm not the world's biggest Daytona Prototype fan, but the on-board view of the Michael Shank Racing Pontiac Crawford(?) had a very nice engine roar to it. Pontiac engines do sound pretty nice in DPs. And speaking of the Rolex Sports Car Series, I hope Joey Hand is alright after a hellacious crash transpired around the end when his BMW had an off-course excursion which led to a gymnast-like, flipping crash. May God be with you.
 
JohnBM01
It sucks that I don't have a Cingular Wireless phone because I would have graciously answered "Yes!" to one of those poll questions. One question asked if a "Chase for the Cup" race should feature a road course race. I DEFINITELY agree. The series has a number of different venues to examine. Maybe Round 9 of the Chase would be Homestead while the final race can remain in Florida at either Sebring or Daytona's Road course. Us real racing fans would rather see those 43 zoom around Sebring. Let's examine the two courses. (1) I actually think Sebring would suit the stock cars pretty well. Sebring is a pretty flat course. Can some of you fans imagine 5 or 6 wide on the front straight of Sebring? My only concern about Sebring with stock cars is if the transmissions will be able to hold up. They may have to switch to the debatable plate restrictors around the long straights. (2) Daytona's road course will be raced by the Rolex Sports Car Series and NASC... I mean, IROC. Daytona's road course is the spiritual home of the GARRA. The course itself is a mix of high-banked Americana coupled with the complexity of a demanding road course. I don't know if I'd REALLY call it demanding or not. I just don't want to say it's an easy race course. Only problem with NASCAR at Daytona's road course is if oval racing purists would want to see NASCAR race on one of its classic race courses racing a road course configuration.
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Luckily you didn't have to vote yes to get the result you wanted. I belive the results of that poll were like 75% wanted a road course to be in the chase.
 

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