Need help choosing a car...

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PERFECT BALANCE
I do not want to drift now. I just want something that I could eventually be able to drift in. I'm talking like 1 or 2 years later, when I finally get a good paying job so that I can afford to dump money into a car. And having something economical wouldn't hurt either considering gas prices right now.
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Ok, so let me make sure I can get this 100% straight. You don't want to buy something that is already well on it's way to being a good drift car. Instead, you want to buy something totally worthless for the purpose in it's stock form, because "you don't want to drift right now, you want to do it later". As for economy, they made a four cylinder Fox Mustang, and a V6 F-Body. Both still have more power (and not significantly more weight) than any car you've mentioned.

Look for Thunderbirds from the 80's and 90's - They're dirt cheap, reliable, and came with a variety of engines, including the 5.0 V8, a V6, a supercharged V6, and a turbocharged 4. Look for a Toyota Cressida, once again, dirt cheap and reliable, and they had the 7M-GE Supra engine. Any of the late 80's and early 90's BMW's with a manual transmission, they're not especially the most reliable on the list, but they're so well balanced from the factory that they make up for it in the long run.

You DO NOT want a Miata or Corolla GT-S as a drift car. Now I'll tell you why (besides being overhyped piles of dog crap, as far as the Corolla goes) - Short wheelbase. The instant you hit a bump, you're going to be swapping ends, and POW, trees hurt. Get something with a long wheelbase and a decent amount of power, you'll be amazed at how easy you can drift it bone stock. I'd also advise avoiding 240's like they're the black plague - You have to throw so much money at them it's not even funny. I've known several people who've owned them and nobody has anything good to say about them, not even people who have them primered and drift the hell out of them.

Disclaimer: The above stated text is the opinion of Ghost C, and nobody else. It is not a personal insult to anyone, and it should not be mistaken as one. Don't take it to heart if I said something bad about a car you like, or something good about a car you don't.
 
As I said, V-Dubs aren't for everyone. I can't imagine where you might be that they aren't plentiful. Even there, I'll bet they are plenty cheap.
They are right cheap to work on, and for a "swap" you still keep the main block, connecting rods, fan, oil pump and sump.
You just change the piston "barrels" and Pistons. and you go from 1300 cc to 1835 cc. With exchanges you can find a pair of hi-perf heads for about $150. And you can do an entire engine for $500-750.
The most expensive thing you can buy for a VW, is an intake system. Dual Webers do not come cheap.
But a single Holley does. And it's easier to tune anyway.
Also, if you have the parts in hand, and the "Compleat Idiot's Guide to VW maintenance" or one of the other comprehensive V-Dub engine manuals, You're looking at about the work of a weekend to rebuild the motor, from the bare block.
You can get in to big money modifying a V-Dub engine. But you don't have to. In fact, if you look, you'll find V-dub motors powering kit cars, kit planes, trikes, and dune buggies, and sand rails. Why? because they're cheap and reliable. Oh, yeah, those magnesium engines also don't weigh very much either.
Also, you can pick up a post 1978 VW bus for next to nothing. They were powered by the leftover 2.0 liter motors that were slated for the discontinued Porsche 914. Horsepower, not so much, but enough torque to get the front of the bus off the ground. (I used to do it all the time in my old bus)
BTW, Perfect Balance, this isn't for you, but for someone else who might be considering building or buying a car on the cheap, and reading this thread.
 
💡!!
















Corvair! Now I know what you're about to say, but bear with me. the later ones were totally corrected, and alot of the trouble had to do with tire pressure and the fact that Bias plys are crap. I'd imagine that you could find a 140 horse version for a pretty decent amount. Plus, it'll turn heads. people don't go "ooh, cool.." when they see a miata or a fox body.

Don Yenko worked wonders with the little oddities in the late 60s, and some Corvairs came from the factory with as Turbo. Parts are cheap, because people haven't gotten over the stigma that Mr. Nader gave the first version. Plus, the way that the induction is, it would be pretty easy to take some flanges and rubber tubing and make a 4 barrel manifold ala early tunnel Ram.

I know it's the craziest idea yet, and that it's also not DOHC, Japanese, or even fuel injected, but it's another idea for a really cheap car that could very easily become fun to drive.

where do you live, PERFECT_BALANCE?
 
PERFECT BALANCE
@DK: I've seen that thread before, but I think I'm still leaning towards a 240. If you want a car, you have to accept the things that will go wrong with it. I'm sure people could come up with a list just as long on any of the cars mentioned here, exept maybe the miata's, which are pretty reliable. My friend always wanted to get a miata, and we have almost the exact same tastes, so if I get one too, I have a feeling they are going to end up looking almost exactly the same, which is something I don't want.

Also, most of the things on that list are just things that people do, not necessarily things that go wrong with these cars.[/color]
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If some of those common 240 problems don't bother you then get one :) but hurry before the big bang(Tokyo Drift) comes. I am happy with my 240.
 
How about an MR2? You can get AW11's and SW20's on the cheap these days. Failing that, you could get a Fiero (beware, however, of failed front suspension bearings or connecting rod problems in the 2.5 L Iron Duke engine, which can lead to engine fires) or Corvair (only problem with that is that you have to know how to service an air-cooled engine properly, or it won't last long). If you don't want an F-body or Mustang, though, there are plenty of properly sorted (and relatively leightweight) FR American cars. You could get a Vega (with the Cosworth I-4) or a Gremlin (probably best connected to the 3.3L I6, which makes for an econimical and bullet-proof combination that only the Beetle could match at the time).
 
People havn't realized that I don't want a domestic car I guess. I could tell you why, but it will start a flame war over here, and I don't want to get my thread closed.

@DK: I am really trying to get a 240 before then, but I just don't know if that will be possible. If I really can't get that car, because I really like it, I think I might go with an MR2 or a Miata if I can find one.

@Ghost C: Corollas are acually one of the easiest cars to drift.

EDIT: I live in Harrisonburg, Virginia
 
I've been thinking of getting a car soon, too.
Definatley something cheap and reliable, that probably means a Japanese car.
I've been looking at Preludes and Miatas, so let us know what you find.
 
Well, I guess your prejudices are automatically nixing several otherwise good options. Virginia, huh? I think you should be able to find any of the cars suggested here for relatively cheap, as it's not a place like California or a huge metropolis where everything is more expensive.

What's so bad about domestics? Have the evil Prius driving Californian media moguls scared you?

Nice, Toronado. I never thought of the Vega or Gremlin. Those AMC sixes are nearly bulletproof, and they're really easy to maintain and hop up.

What about an older Volvo or BMW? I think an old Bavaria could be had in your range. The problem is that all the domestic cars are inherently cheaper, and the parts are cheaper as well. You might find a 240SX or SC300 in your range, but parts are going to cost an arm and a leg, as they're not made anymore, and since they were made in foreign countries, they sometimes have to ship from a long way away.

I'd say Saab, but the RWD clause nixes almost all of them...
 
@ Perfect: I think you are being a little too picky for your first car. I'm sure that you know exactly what you want in your head, I know I did as well when I was younger ('70 Malibu SS 350, '77 Trans-Am, '70 Monte Carlo SS 454) but reality hit... Insurance, gas, parts, etc. are all very expensive no matter what car you are buying, and with my limited funds, I ended up with a cheap little runabout ('93 VW Fox Wolfsburg).

If I were you, keep your mind in the game, and just get a good, cheap car at first. Money is the key thing, and you dont want to be driving a money pit, or something cheap to insure, etc. I took me a year to save up to buy a new Volkswagen (after my Fox was totaled in a car accident), and another year after that, I'm nearly in a position where I can buy a new car again.

Save some money, go to college, gradually progress from car to car. Unless youre planning on making $20 an hour and working a 40 hour week every week without major expensens, money is going to be hard to come by.
 
I do have one question:
If you already knew what you wanted, why in the world did you start a thread and ask for our opinions?

It was an interesting exercise in remembering cars on the cheap.
But still, it kinda sucks to have our opinion asked for just so it can be shot down, because you already have your mind made up.
 
I don't have my mind made up. I was asking for opinions because I was hoping someone could point out something I missed based on the list of cars and things about them. And I don't think I am being very picky. The cars I listed are fairly cheap, easy to tune, and easy to maintain. I like japanese cars, I like their engines, and I like the handling and grip of an FR car. Seeing that all my original car choices were light, japanese fr cars, I though people would get a general idea of what I wanted. With 3 uncles as car dealers, it's not really finding a car that's hard, but if I'm going to blow my savings on something that cost as much as something else that I really like, I might as well go for it.

I was expecting more suggestions like the older model MR2's, the MKIII Supras, and the SC300. But then again, with a forum the size of gtp, you get all sorts of suggestions.
 
PERFECT BALANCE
I was expecting more suggestions like the older model MR2's, the MKIII Supras, and the SC300. But then again, with a forum the size of gtp, you get all sorts of suggestions.
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You did get a boat load of suggestions. And you've given a boat-load of reasons why you reject those suggestions.

I just think it would have been easier if your opening post had been something along the lines of: "I really want a Nissan 240SX, A Miata might be nice, but I WANT a 240. Help me select a good one, be it s12, s13, or s14. I have family in the car bidness, and I can get just about anything done I need."

You've already said your budget was limited. The MR2's, Supras, and SC 300's are well out of it.

That said, I truly hope you find a good 240, that hasn't been too molested, that will be cheap to buy, and maintain.
 
We arent trying to pick on you Perfect, but it just seemed odd that after our suggestions (which seemed mostly tilted to the Miata) you shot them down. Yes, we understand that the cheapest Miata that you found is $3,800, but did you try anywhere else in the country? I regularly see Miatas going for $2000 or less here in Michigan, really without many miles either.

Were all trying to be as helpful as possible, hence the suggestions. But I think you need to losen up the horizons a bit to get a good deal on a good car. I understand that you seem to be dead-set on something Japanese, but dont let it steer you away from something American or German at the same time.

All I can suggest that you do is research. Research, research, research. A $1000 price on a 240SX may sound good, but how many miles are on it? What parts are going to need replacement? How much are they going to cost to replace? What problems happen often with the car?

You might find in your research that one particular car might be really good, and another quite bad.
 
YSSMAN, You definitely deserve the Quality Posts badge.

Like YSSMAN said, you might find a miata for $1000. But what's missing?
I've got a '92 SC300 I'll sell you for $2,000, but it don't exactly run too good...:dopey: (it is complete though!)

No hard feelings, Perfect. I wish you the best of luck in your car search. Just keep an open mind. You never know, you could fall in love with something that you didn't think you'd ever be caught dead driving.

Can I make yet another suggestion that will be instantaneously demolished? It's kinda fun to complie a list of Cheap RWD cars with performance potential.

A Datsun 620. Sure, they aren't pretty, but they aren't that ugly. Plus, they have the same L series as the 510, so there's an established aftermarket.
 
PERFECT BALANCE
People havn't realized that I don't want a domestic car I guess. I could tell you why, but it will start a flame war over here, and I don't want to get my thread closed.
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Why, because Initial D told you so?

@Ghost C: Corollas are acually one of the easiest cars to drift.
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Whoever told you that lied to you. They're twitchy, they have a poor suspension setup (Don't argue - They have a live axle), and as I stated earlier, they have a short wheelbase, which means they've got a tendancy to swap ends.

But by all means, find out for yourself, my advice is usually thrown out the window by most who read it anyway.
 
Let me explain. Right now I'm kinda set on a 240 because if I'm gonna want one, it's now or never. When 3f3f comes, there goes my chance unless I'm really lucky. If I don't get a 240sx before this movie comes out, you can bet I'm going to be looking for Miata's and such. Also, I think I could really learn from one that is a little on the bad conditioned side. I know quite a lot about cars for my age, but I havn't had much experience fixing them, other than maybe changing the oil and just taking apart things when my dad tells me to.

@ Ghost C: I just thought I could trust the Drift King on that one. I just havn't had good experiences with Domestic cars, and it seems like the more I learn about them and their engines, the more I dislike them, other than the 4 cylinder engines they have, and in those cases, japan is better at making them anyways.

@High-test: How bad is the SC300, you got any pics?
 
So get a 240SX - I never said they were terrible cars, but I offered suggestions that would be better suited to drifting.

I'll also add that the insurance on the SC300 would probably be less than the insurance on any of the other cars you're looking at. It's a luxury coupe, and therefore snips it's way out of the pricey-er sporty categories.
 
Ghost C
So get a 240SX - I never said they were terrible cars, but I offered suggestions that would be better suited to drifting.

I'll also add that the insurance on the SC300 would probably be less than the insurance on any of the other cars you're looking at. It's a luxury coupe, and therefore snips it's way out of the pricey-er sporty categories.
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I'm not sure a luxury 2door lexus is going to be a lot easier on insurance than an old 2door sports car.
Plus that car isn't exactly what I'm looking for, but if I get really good deal, I would consider it.
 
The insurance on the SC for me was pretty bad, but I did get the Honor student discount.

1,000 per year or whatever it is, I believe...
 
I think a very good choice will be the BMW 3 series E30, this is one of the best choices there is when wanting to buy a good quality car, I'm nbot saying it's the best choice.....but it is a good one...
 
High-test: How bad is the SC300, you got any pics?


I was kinda kidding. I'm actually trying to get it back on the road soon, as it has major wiring problems.
 
I'm going to be brutally honest here. You are wasting everyones time Perfect. WHY?

Clearly your mind is made up. You want a 240sx so you can be an uber cool drifter guy. You and your friends see it on TV and you think it's cool. Fine, go get a 240sx. CLEARLY in the eyes of this jury it's not the number one pick for you but whatever, you don't care, you want one so go buy it. Stop wasting our time and just go do it.


Don't take offense to this but what really bothers me is you are just another ignorant (as in uneducated and not directed as an insult to you) teen who wants to fit in with the Japaneese Anti American street racing crowd. You are anti American in your auto thinking to a fault and it's stupid. You won't even consider them because your high school buddies who don't know jack about cars, mechanics, or anything practical have told you so, or maybe you've been watching too much FandF, or Top Gear. You refuse to give a valid reason why you don't want an American car. Be honest with us, your friends wouldn't see it as "cool". That's why. You feel that by getting an import you get some street cred with your friends even if it is an inferior car. Now, I'm not saying go out and buy American because honestly anything short of a Viper, or Vette and there really isn't an American car I would buy at this point in my life. However, if I were younger and looking for my first car all over again in this street racing world we live in, my ass would be picking up a camaro or Mustang for cheap and showing the import boys in my town what horsepower is. If you really want to show off, be fast, drift, and all that other FandF BS then a FoxBody is probably the way to go. You can buy one for about 2k and drop another 1500 in it and embarrass 90% of the import crowd if you can turn your own wrenches. Oh, and you can drift too.

I like the import tuning thing, but the scene disgusts me. It's a bunch of posers claiming to be car enthusiast who turn out to be the most closed minded fools on the planet. you get these teenagers who are buying money pits like 240s and RX-7s thinking they are really something because their car was featured in a movie. Perfect you said it yourself in an indirect way. You want this car before the new FandF comes out. I have a feeling it has alot less to do with the price and a lot more to do with the fact you would like to walk out of the theater to your 240 and have all the kiddies goo goo and ga ga over it because they really don't know what makes the 240 a good drifter but they just know they saw it on a movie and think it's cool now.

I'm not trying to run you down or anything but I am looking at this from an adult perspective and honestly the answers you are giving don't add up. I know you are trying to play this cool and not act like a Japaneese fanboy but let's be honest you are. So go get the 240, and be happy. I wish you years off good luck with it and safe driving. Remember keep the racing on the track and drifting on the street is honestly as bout as cool as being a child rapist. Good luck to you.
 
+1 Much Kudos to you IMA Dreamer! I think you summed up the entire situation the way I wanted to, but of course, as an American car guy to begin with, it would automatically turn into a flame war...

Nice Job, and welcome to GTPlanet!
 
@IMAdreamer: I think your the one being ignorant here. I have decicated myself for the past 3-4 years to learn about cars and try to establish a career with these machines. My high school buddies and me know a lot more about cars than some people think, And most people are acually surprised on the amount of knowledge I have in this area.

I don't need any street cred, I'm not going to have anything to do with the streetracing scene anyways. The only place you might see me speeding on the streets is on mountain roads in 5-10 years when I get some money and a decent job. And even there, the speed limits are around 45 mph so I probably won't be going over 10mph over the speed limit.

I don't like american cars mainly because of their engines, and I could give lots of proof why pushrods and such arn't as good, but then some people will say not all american engines are pushrods. Well, the ones that arn't, there almost definantly a equally good or better japanese engine of the same type. And I could care less about horsepower, as I like cars that are made for handling rather than speed.

And you sure as hell won't see me at the theater watching FandF. I am a respected member here at GTP, and those who know me well know that I keep my mouth shut unless I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT:I'm now reconsidering a 240, and I'm thinking to go with a Miata.
 
What, exactly, is wrong with pushrods? If you wouldn't mind clarifying for me.

Do you not like torque, or is it you like to hear an engine sound as if it's about to explode from being revved ungodly high to get into anything remotely resembling a powerband?
 
Ghost C
What, exactly, is wrong with pushrods? If you wouldn't mind clarifying for me.
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I have a really good article about this, and I'll post it up when I find it, I need to ask my friend what the site it.

And about the revving engines, that the point. They can rev to insanly high rpm's, but they can hold it and not explode.

EDIT: And here it is: http://www.billzilla.org/2v4v.htm
 
I don't know what bothers me more about that link - The fact that he uses alot of (useless) math to try and prove his point, or the fact that he's almost totally incorrect. Yes, a four valve engine will flow more air than a two valve engine of the exact same design, and you could maybe extract a little more power (Not the highly exaggerated figures he states) out of it, but that comes at a cost - You get effectively twice the amount of reciprocating weight in the valvetrain. There are pushrod V8's that rev past 10,000RPM. He's smoking some good crack if he thinks that DOHC engines are the only engines in the world that can rev high. I've seen the L26 (That's the pushrod 4.9 V8 in my car) revved to 8k on stock internals - But there's no point to it if you can make power down low.

Let's say we take two nearly identical engines, but one is a pushrod engine and the other is DOHC. The pushrod engine makes massive torque off idle, and continues to make it throughout it's whole rev range with no problem, and makes peak power at 4,500rpm. The DOHC engine doesn't start to get into it's powerband until about 5,000rpm, and makes peak power at 7,000rpm. Both engines make identical peak torque and power. Which is the better engine?
 
Well, you have to be realistic, how often do you find a comparison, including the rest of the car, that is that close. Usually pushrods are used in bigger engines, so they may make more power, but which one is more efficient?
 
I can name one from personal experience, the Cadillac 4.9 OHV V8 and the Cadillac 4.6 DOHC V8 - 200hp & 275ft/lbs, and 300hp & 275ft/lbs, respectively. You'd imagine the 4.6 would be a much better engine, being that it makes 100hp more, right? Well, no. In an exercise in reality, the 4.6 is only capable of making around 50hp over the 4.9 to the wheels, and actually makes significantly less torque, despite being rated the same (With the same tranny, even!). Until 4,000rpm the 4.6 makes -less- horsepower than the 4.9, and until the end of the 4.9's rev range (conservatively limited to 5,000rpm - 5,500rpm for the 4.6), the 4.6 only shows a gain of around 25hp.

As for which is more efficient, it depends on the idea of efficient. If you mean which one can suck more air in, as I said, a 4 valve will usually get more air into a totally stock engine. Once you start modifying, the line is blurred significantly. If you mean which makes "better" power, it depends on the setup.

I'm not going to say pushrods are better than DOHC, because it really doesn't matter, and totally depends on the engine. If I were going to get a four cylinder, I wouldn't want pushrods, but I wouldn't demand DOHC, either. That's about the end of my say on it.

Don't rule out OHV or SOHC because some guy on the internet said that they're not good, most of everything he says on his page is a half truth or total garbage.
 
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