Need help choosing a car...

[Perfect Balance]

If I were going to get a four cylinder, I wouldn't want pushrods, but I wouldn't demand DOHC, either.

Well, what have all my car choices been so far?

I think this thread is done. I got the help I needed, and now it's just becoming an off-topic conversation that may soon turn into a flame war.

If a mod can close this if they see it, it would be appreciated.

 

[Ghost C]

You've had alot of car choices ranging from I4's to V8's, but you've ruled out everything except Miatas and 240SX's.

 

[High-Test]

(Hopefully not IBTL, and I'm not starting a flame war) (Just proving that I'm insane)

Pushrods are guzzlers, you say?

I'll compare the archaic 235 cubic inch Hi-Thrift Chevy 6 with the 2JZ-GE. Both are (relatively) similar in size, they both are straight sixes. The funny thing is, they both get the same fuel economy. 18-21, regardless. Here's where you might say, "DOHC, duh!" but, the 235 is bulletproof. It was designed in 1927, and stayed virtually unchanged until 1963, I believe. In a 1960 Chevrolet Biscayne, (a car that weighs over 3,575 lbs) a lone Rochester monojet (one barrel) breathing through a restricted HOT intake and out of a restrictive exhaust manifold put out 135 bhp @ 4000rpm, and 217 lbs. ft of torque at 2000 rpm. Now, If I had kept the "stovebolt" in my chevy, I would have been able to expect 19-21 mpg all around. It's thrifty, but not that thrifty because it has to struggle with all that weight. It would actually get even better mileage and power with a simple set of headers and a 2 x 1 intake. (even more with a holley 390cfm 4 barrel, with a few DCOES, a stovebolt can slay many smallblocks)

Consider this, now.

My deceased lexus got no worse than 17, and no better than 22 mpg. The 2JZ-GE put out 220 bhp@6,000 rpm and 210 ft.lb of torque @4800 rpm. That's in a 3,498 lb. car. Now, you still probably think that pushrods are crap, and that the mighty DOHC is still more efficient. Let me ask you a question. What does RPM mean? Revolutions per minute. How fast the engine is turning to put out a certain figure. Which is burning more gas at it's torque figure, the choked up stovebolt, putting out 217 @ 2,000, or the 2JZ-GE, putting out 210 @ 4,800?

If pushrods are so awesomely bad, how the hell does a design that's 79 years old get the same, if not better gas mileage than the DOHC toyota?

(Don't get me started on the reliability.. )

Again, why not a Datsun 620?

 

[Perfect Balance]

@Ghost C: I considered the mr2 and high-test's sc300, since I though he was making a serious offer. I though about the datsun 510's too, as its a nice little car, but then I realized its going to need a lot of maintinence to keep it on the road. Thats part of the reason Im trying to look into a Miata now, since It seems to be very reliable from the posts in this thread.

@high-test: From a google search, they look to be trucks. And trucks are just, well.....ehh....trucks. Also, I never said pushrods are bad, I just said they arn't as good as some other engines. What the guy said in the article is his opinions, but I just though he sounded like he knew what he was talking about.

When I say efficiency, I'm talking about how much work the engines have to do to get an equal amount of power, and how much power the engines lose from friction. Weight also plays a factor, like how much an engine with the same power weighs.

 

[Tornado]

When I say efficiency, I'm talking about how much work the engines have to do to get an equal amount of power, and how much power the engines lose from friction. Weight also plays a factor, like how much an engine with the same power weighs.

Not that I am taking sides or anything, but engines of smaller capacity tend to have to do more work to get similar power to engines of larger capacity. In addition, larger capacity engines (especially those of larger block design), tend to last longer with less need of constant attention.
Also, I agree with Ghost C about you opinion of the Corolla GT-S. It has a great chassis and rediculously low weight, but it is not a good drift car. Unless your insanely skilled, you will not find much success with it, because it simply does not have enough power to constantly maintain drifts effectively unless you take the time, money and energy to effectively tune the chassis to your liking. Any F-Body or later Fox-Mustang (earlier ones are too loosely set up) would work far better than a GT-S.
In fact, any American FR car would work wonders as a drift car, as they almost always have enough torque to get the job done, and do so with less maintenance. In addition, Corrola GT-S' are getting rediculously overpriced, as are 240's, and you can get a lot more car for your money.

 

[IMADreamer]

@IMAdreamer: I think your the one being ignorant here. I have decicated myself for the past 3-4 years to learn about cars and try to establish a career with these machines. My high school buddies and me know a lot more about cars than some people think, And most people are acually surprised on the amount of knowledge I have in this area.

I don't need any street cred, I'm not going to have anything to do with the streetracing scene anyways. The only place you might see me speeding on the streets is on mountain roads in 5-10 years when I get some money and a decent job. And even there, the speed limits are around 45 mph so I probably won't be going over 10mph over the speed limit.

I don't like american cars mainly because of their engines, and I could give lots of proof why pushrods and such arn't as good, but then some people will say not all american engines are pushrods. Well, the ones that arn't, there almost definantly a equally good or better japanese engine of the same type. And I could care less about horsepower, as I like cars that are made for handling rather than speed.

And you sure as hell won't see me at the theater watching FandF. I am a respected member here at GTP, and those who know me well know that I keep my mouth shut unless I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT:I'm now reconsidering a 240, and I'm thinking to go with a Miata.

Buddy, you can just stop right there. I'm twice your age, and have been into cars for as long as you have been alive. I have forgotten more about cars then you and your buddies know. That may sound cocky but your pushrod arguement and the fact that you have totally disavowed all US cars in your search proves that your knowledge is lacking or blocked by your extreme bias against anything American.. 3-4 years of your life? Come on man, so that makes you an expert? You can't even drive yet.

Go get your 240 and be happy.

 

[YSSMAN]

My psotion on OHC/DOHC vs OHV can be summed up pretty easy:

OHV engines weight less, are smaller in size (even with larger displacement), cheaper to build and maintain, and are proven technology that has been modified and re-designed over the past 100 years.

That said, Perfect, I'm glad youve reconsidered the 240SX. The Miata would be a better choise between the two, bar none.

 

[niky]

I think a very good choice will be the BMW 3 series E30, this is one of the best choices there is when wanting to buy a good quality car, I'm nbot saying it's the best choice.....but it is a good one...

I'd echo this. I like the car's balance and suspension. Old Bimmers are also becoming more common at European "drift" events.

And @some guys in here, calm down. He says he doesn't want big iron, he doesn't want it. Period. Hey? We dont' need this turning into a Yanks vs. Japanese thread, or a pushrod vs. SOHC/DOHC thread, as frankly, both arguments are old and kind of useless.

Miatas, Miatas, Miatas... oh, and a Ferio would be interesting if you could find one in good condition. I pretty much agree that old Corollas are over-rated... hell, they used to cost under a thousand dollars here before "Initial D" came out, and now people are asking for over three??? Hella nuts.

Too bad you don't get old RWD Toyota Starlets over there... ultra-short wheelbase, relatively wide stance... very low weight... terrific autocross cars, and there's so much TRD kit available for them, it isn't funny. Even with the "drift" craze coming over people, you can still get a race-prepped one here for under $3000.

 

[NismoR34Ztune]

Buddy, you can just stop right there. I'm twice your age, and have been into cars for as long as you have been alive. I have forgotten more about cars then you and your buddies know. That may sound cocky but your pushrod arguement and the fact that you have totally disavowed all US cars in your search proves that your knowledge is lacking or blocked by your extreme bias against anything American.. 3-4 years of your life? Come on man, so that makes you an expert? You can't even drive yet.

Go get your 240 and be happy.

i must say it isn't a very good idea to withstand IMAdreamer, in his reaction before this one, he had very good points, I like the way he looks at things, and...........he's right, maybe not in Balance's case (i think he is but still...), most people from Balance's age who choose a car to buy nowadays are going for the casual thing, which is a shame because there are so many better options.....you could say I'm being opposite because I'm working my way to a skyline GT-R which isn't easy , but i've done so many research on this car, and looked at many opinions from owners, looked at reports....looked a t the car itself and I compared specs from different versions and that is why I chose to aim for a GT-R, not that I'm mister wise guy, and I know it's a different perspective, but you must listen to IMAdreamer, he's right......

There are so many cars which you could buy as a MUCH better alternative...

 

[Jay]

This whole V8 domestic vs Imports type arguments makes me ill and makes me regret even going into threads these days.

Australian Import scene is nothing like in the US and everyone is much nicer to each other. Almost all our imports come directly from Japan, if it was sold in Australia by factory we don't call it a import in most cases (mainly referring to times I see SRT-4 refered as import in the US). 95% of our Import scene is performance based, we have very little 'posers' 'ricers' here and there is some rivalry between the local V8's and Imports we do get along pretty well.

For example we may organise a large import meet up but plenty of V8 Holdens and Fords roll up and thats fine, nobody's really bothered and vice versa.

BTW I own both a Turbo charged import and a Australian muscle car, my car passions include many vast types of cars not just one, which everyone over here is cool with but when I come online (mainly international forums) I get torn in half and end up having to defend either side just cause they get flamed on for petty biased reasons.


If someone has their mind set on a 240sx, let him be, even if its for peer pressure reasons... so what.

 

[NismoR34Ztune]

oke i respect your point of view, but isn't that like, "we're not dieing from it so what the hell?" he asks for others opinion, so he can make a better choice, at least, that's the meaning of this.....
You can say,let him buy the 240sx, but you can also give him a better alternative, I think if it's relevant, the second would be best.......

 

[Jay]

oke i respect your point of view, but isn't that like, "we're not dieing from it so what the hell?" he asks for others opinion, so he can make a better choice, at least, that's the meaning of this.....
You can say,let him buy the 240sx, but you can also give him a better alternative, I think if it's relevant, the second would be best.......

Sure he asks for some opinions on what alternatives are around, people give their opinion...... No problem, but if he rejects the opinions given to him and sticks with his decision then people should except it. I don't see why people need to start judging him as trying to be a "uber cool drifter guy".


My opinion is I would prefer a Miata over the 240sx, but if it were in Australia where 240sx's are 180sx's/200sx's then I would prefer the 180sx no hesitation. I would also prefer a SC300 over the 240sx (especially the import models we have).

 

[IMADreamer]

This whole V8 domestic vs Imports type arguments makes me ill and makes me regret even going into threads these days.

Australian Import scene is nothing like in the US and everyone is much nicer to each other. Almost all our imports come directly from Japan, if it was sold in Australia by factory we don't call it a import in most cases (mainly referring to times I see SRT-4 refered as import in the US). 95% of our Import scene is performance based, we have very little 'posers' 'ricers' here and there is some rivalry between the local V8's and Imports we do get along pretty well.

For example we may organise a large import meet up but plenty of V8 Holdens and Fords roll up and thats fine, nobody's really bothered and vice versa.

BTW I own both a Turbo charged import and a Australian muscle car, my car passions include many vast types of cars not just one, which everyone over here is cool with but when I come online (mainly international forums) I get torn in half and end up having to defend either side just cause they get flamed on for petty biased reasons.


If someone has their mind set on a 240sx, let him be, even if its for peer pressure reasons... so what.

I'm not trying to make this import v domestic or v8 v 4cyl. I'm not that way. I can appreciate almost any car. I like imports and domestics alike. As a matter of fact in the last two weeks I have test driven 6 cars, none of which are American. My whole point is that this guys mind is made up and for all the wrong reasons. I think in the first place he shouldn't have even bothered asking his question. It's clear he wants a 240. That's great. If that's the car he wants then go get it. They are out there they are cheap so there is no reason not to. However if he is going to sit and entertain offers and at the same time shut down an entire genre of cars purely based a shotty article, and the fact that he won't be as cool to his friends, and lets face it, that's the reason he isn't looking at American cars, then he is just wasting our time. Especially considering that what he wants to do can be done by the American options in his price range and probably save him money on insurance and modding cost, it's a shame he can't open his eyes and atleast consider them.

Of the cars he mentioned the Miata is going to be by far the most fun to drive. I don't think anyone could question that. However, it doesn't have the cool factor that the 240 seems to carry right now so he wants the 240, becuase it's and "it" car and other reasons that are more valid I am sure. However I stand by my statement. Get the 240, let your friends think your cool, enjoy high school as a popular kid with a "cool" car and be safe with it. What matters is that he is happy at the end of the day and honestly I think the only way that is going to happen is if he gets the 240 becauase it seems his mind is set on it.

Don't take the things I am saying as insults, cheap shots, or trying to fan the flames of some d v i battle. I am just being honest and calling it like I see it. I don't want to offend anyone.

 

[IMADreamer]

oke i respect your point of view, but isn't that like, "we're not dieing from it so what the hell?" he asks for others opinion, so he can make a better choice, at least, that's the meaning of this.....
You can say,let him buy the 240sx, but you can also give him a better alternative, I think if it's relevant, the second would be best.......

I did give him a better choice earlier in the thread. The Miata is probably the superior choice in this case. I am basing this on purely the "fun to drive" factor, which if I were 15 again would be the only thing I care about.

 

[Jay]

I'm not trying to make this import v domestic or v8 v 4cyl. I'm not that way. I can appreciate almost any car.

Thats great, I am the same, unfortunately many people are not.

it's a shame he can't open his eyes and atleast consider them.

Oh I agree completely.

let your friends think your cool, enjoy high school as a popular kid with a "cool" car

Haha I remember them back in High school.

Don't take the things I am saying as insults, cheap shots, or trying to fan the flames of some d v i battle. I am just being honest and calling it like I see it. I don't want to offend anyone.

I am not offended or anything like that, I'm just trying to stop a flame session before it gets too hot.

Like you said he made up his mind (probably before he even made this thread) now it seems like the thread will go nowhere but downhill so maybe we should let him be with his choice and I agree, disregarding cars because they are pushrod is silly and not very narrow minded.

I did give him a better choice earlier in the thread. The Miata is probably the superior choice in this case. I am basing this on purely the "fun to drive" factor, which if I were 15 again would be the only thing I care about.

Which is the way I feel, but as you know many High schoolers are more worried about impressions. Although if the 240sx is anything like a 180sx onroad I would still say they can be quite fun to drive indeed.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I don't want to offend anyone.

Maybe you don't want to offend anyone, but I am getting a little offended. I've been trying so hard to make myself more knowledgeable about cars and how they work, and then some person who knows nothing about me just throws be back in the dirt with all the other stupid guys in my school, and assumes that just because your older than me, that I don't know anything. Just because you may know more about cars than me doesn't mean that all of my knowledge is gone and unreliable. I base my opinions on race car drivers and professionals, so naturally I would beleive them before even considering your statements as right. And quit telling me to just go get a 240, if you didn't see in my earlier posts I am reconsidering them, and even more now that I realize they are uni-body.

EDIT: Most of the ricer guys in my school don't even know what a 240 is, they all stick to drag racing.

 

[Keef]

Shall I end the flaming?

Obvioulsy I'm not going to read this entire thread, and I'm sure you alerady know the stuff I'll say, but I'll share anyway. Don't get an RX7. Any RX7. Believe me, you can't afford it. THey are ridiculously expensive to maintain, gas hogs, and oil hogs. I know two people in their 20s who both own a 95 RX, all tuned out, of course, and the money they spend keepingthose ccars running is retarded. Older RX7s are even worse. Stay away from a rotary if you can.
Try not to go Euro with a Bimmer, Audi, or Benz of any sort. Also expensive to maintain, and parts are hard to find if you get in a fender bender or something. Again, I know a couple people who've gotten screwed out of their "awesome idea" to get a BMW.
Now, the Miata. I can't really think od many probelms you'll have with it, exept that they aren't as cheap, even when old, as you think they are. They are pretty sought after with the older crowd, mainly for autocrossing and such. But I can't see them being too awful expensive to run, they're good on gas, parts abound, but you won't have any space for friends and stuff. In other words, they're seriously impracticle.
Nissan 240 are good cars. That's why they're all over the place. You might not want one for that reason--everyone has one--but that just means that replacement parts are easy to find. That's something that can't be said about the cars themselves. You might have to drive a hundred miles from home to look at a good example at a low price. I've seen a bunch of stock 240s in my area, but they're driven by old guys with no sporting intentions and they probably won't sell them, again, because they're cheap to run. They are 2+2s, I think, have small engines, are good on gas, have room for stuff, are practice, easily tuned, all sorts of stuff.
Of the choices I've read about--240, Miata, Euro, RX--I'd go with the 240. I'm 17, and it's funny because I did this exact same "shopping" excercise about 1 year and a half ago. I ended up with a Cavalier. So don't get your hopes up for anything special, because cheapness always wins the car-buying battle. And remember that FWD cars are almost always cheaper thean a neato RWD car.
Hope I helped. Just think a ways into the future.

 

[Gil]

I swore to myself that I wouldn't get into this again, but, here goes, then I'm washing my hands of this thread:
I'm happy that you have decided to get some car, any car.

The point I was trying to bring up, was go for what's cheap, easy to maintain, and fairly reliable.

Unlike you, I had the fortune to grow up in an era of cheap fuel, big blocks, and cars that would pull over 100 MPH in second gear. (with a three speed auto).
I currently drive everything from a 1.3 liter I4 (hey, it gets 40+ MPG) to a 1.6 Liter SOHC VTECH Civic (It gets 37 MPG) to a 6.0 liter Diesel V-8 engine with a Big Turbo on it that cruises at 80 MPH at 2000 RPM (thanks to the 5-spd auto) and turns almost 20 MPG on the open road.
I hang the tail out on my Mini-truck (2.3 SOHC Ford) when the weather is inclement, because the old girl won't bawl a tire in the dry.

I currently have 8 cars (yes, they all run), and have had about 20 or so thru my life. I've driven several hundred cars in my lifetime from MG Midgets, to VW's, to Small Block Fords and Chevies, to Big Block Fords and Chevies, to FWD GM, Dodge, Ford, Nissan, Toyota, and Honda.

My advice to you stands, with one change. Buy the newest car, with the least miles, best fuel economy and highest reliability you can afford.
A project car is one thing. A daily driver that is well sorted, from the off is better than any car that requires constant fiddling. This condition (of constant fiddling) can turn a car you love into a car you hate in relatively short order.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Well said post, thanks. I think it's time to close this thread now.

Alex

 

[IMADreamer]

Maybe you don't want to offend anyone, but I am getting a little offended. I've been trying so hard to make myself more knowledgeable about cars and how they work, and then some person who knows nothing about me just throws be back in the dirt with all the other stupid guys in my school, and assumes that just because your older than me, that I don't know anything. Just because you may know more about cars than me doesn't mean that all of my knowledge is gone and unreliable. I base my opinions on race car drivers and professionals, so naturally I would beleive them before even considering your statements as right. And quit telling me to just go get a 240, if you didn't see in my earlier posts I am reconsidering them, and even more now that I realize they are uni-body.

EDIT: Most of the ricer guys in my school don't even know what a 240 is, they all stick to drag racing.

I didn't say you knew nothing. However I thought you should really step off your high horse once you pointed out you had been into cars for 3-4 years. Like I said, I have been doing this longer then you have been alive and I still feel like I know nothing. I haven't been on this site too long and I don't surf car communities on the web but I know from the short time I have been here this is a great place to learn and there are some guys here with huge deposites of knowledge that will make me look like an infant when it comes to car knowledge. While I am sure you think your 3-4 years of studying up on cars seems to make you knowledgable I can assure you there is lots to learn so when you ask for opinions try to keep your own pety biases out of the discussion because you may learn something you didn't know and your opinion may be changed.

I guess my whole point is to keep an open mind when it comes to cars. Your generation has a serious hang up with American cars and honestly I think it all stems from the stigma that was attached to American cars in the 1980s. American companies have shattered those old stereotypes and are producing really fantastic cars. They do have a long way to go still but with the exception of GM seem to be on the right track and even GM may be turning it around. I know you keep saying you aren't looking for a tuner car or drift car but honestly you say that but between the lines you imply differently. I almost get the feeling that you want to be apart of that drift, tuner, hey I'm cool I have a drift car scene but you don't want to admit it. It's ok to admit it.

Ok, I am just rambling, if you were offended I apologize. It was not my intention and I hope there are no hard feelings. I truely hope which ever car you choose makes you happy.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Apology accepted.

P.S. (I've always been interested in cars, I just started really learning about them 3-4 years ago.)


EDIT: Can a mod please close this? I've already PM'ed Duke, but it doesn't seem to be working.

 

[Duke]

I'm not trying to make this import v domestic or v8 v 4cyl. I'm not that way. I can appreciate almost any car. I like imports and domestics alike. As a matter of fact in the last two weeks I have test driven 6 cars, none of which are American. My whole point is that this guys mind is made up and for all the wrong reasons. I think in the first place he shouldn't have even bothered asking his question.

[snip]

Don't take the things I am saying as insults, cheap shots, or trying to fan the flames of some d v i battle. I am just being honest and calling it like I see it. I don't want to offend anyone.

Positive rep points for this post.

I'd offer my opinion, but it has been well covered by the poster above.

Now, I'm closing this thread at the starter's request. The reason it wasn't done before was that you PMed me in the middle of the night (local time), when I was asleep.