New BMW Styling

[lingenfelter]

AND I HATE IT

👎

 

[JNasty4G63]

AND I HATE IT

WOW, that pic is soooooo old. I mean, the M5 they show in that pic is still just a concept drawing there. We've seen real M5s for almost a year now. And, we've seen the new 3-series, and it looks nothing like the now defunct 4-series in that pic. The even number thing has been dropped. The 6-series is the only one thats going to be around for a while. The 3 coupe is going to be a 3, and the 1 coupe, if it shows, will be a 1 as well. The only thing that might show is a new 8, but thats a big if.

Hilg

 

[///M-Spec]

I think most people who are quick to critisize Mr. Bangle's work don't realize he oversaw the very popular current 3-Series as well as the gorgeous Z8 roadster. In fact, at the time when the E46 debuted in 1998, Bangle's work was critized as being "too conservative". Go figure.

I think the Z4's styling is starting to slip instead of getting better looking for me. I saw one yestarday, and it simply looked odd. I never liked the E65 7-Series. Too much visual bulk.

However, I love the E60 5-Series and always crane my head to watch when one passes by. There is some very beautiful detailing on that car.

The new 3 is a return to conservative and that's okay with me. The coupe should be quite lovely.

I know this is a styling thread, but I think people who are quick to dismiss Bangle generation BMWs should have a drive in one. You quickly stop caring what it looks like, because mechanically they are some of the best driver's cars BMW has ever made.


M

 

[homer110123d]

The Z4 isn't selling well, and the other day someones said they think it's because of its styling. It's not. they problem is that the people that like it can't afford it. 40-50k for a Z4, or 10-20 for a mini cooper, or chrysler convertible. None of them have that money (me included), and so they go for the mini cooper. even Audi is losing old customers because of its new styling direction. but for all the people they are losing, both brands are selling the cars even more than before, Especially the 5 series. the only new styling i'm disapointed w/ from BMW is the stupid minivan project (which they are probably going to go through with). if they thought the 1 series might hurt their image in America, wait till they get the styling reveiws on the minivan.

(PLEASE NO!) this is just one of the ideas for the ugly minivan

Another thing is the iDrive. Even though id rather just use the knobs and dials, I'm sure its not bad once you get used to it. Audi's MMi is the same exact thing but with less functions on the dial, and everyone loves it, so what's the big deal if you add a couple features to it.

 

[neanderthal]

but the 5 isnt as reprehensible as the 7 or 6, or even the Z4.

bungle did come up with some nice cars during his tenure. i love the Z8, the X5, the E46.

 

[JNasty4G63]

.....they problem is that the people that like it can't afford it. 40-50k for a Z4, or 10-20 for a mini cooper, or chrysler convertible. None of them have that money (me included), and so they go for the mini cooper.

Well, you're a little off, and way off. The Z4 starts at $34k, not $40-50k. Its the same car, pricewise as the Z3 which it replaced. And, I'm not sure who you talk to, but I can't think of anyone that would be debating between a Z4 and Mini. The Z4 and a Crossfire, sure. But the Mini???? Thats just silly. The Z4 competes with the Boxter, the A4 cabrio, the SLK, S2000, Crossfire, and the 350Z. But, not the Mini. The Mini is just totally a whole different car.

.....Another thing is the iDrive. Even though id rather just use the knobs and dials, I'm sure its not bad once you get used to it. Audi's MMi is the same exact thing but with less functions on the dial, and everyone loves it, so what's the big deal if you add a couple features to it.

My father-in-law has a 745i that I drive every now and then. And yes, like you said, once you get used to iDrive, its great. It cleans up the dash nicely. And, once you use it a bit, you can do most of the normal functions without looking. I see nothing wrong with it.

Hilg

 

[1X83Z]

Well, you're a little off, and way off. The Z4 starts at $34k, not $40-50k.

It starts at $33600, so you're technically right. But truthfully, he's right - the base Z4 doesn't have cruise control or a trip computer, has a standard manual top and cloth, manually-adjusted seats, and 16" alloys without fog lights. Basically, it's trash. $33600 may be a true base model, but $36500 is what one should expect to pay.

And, I'm not sure who you talk to, but I can't think of anyone that would be debating between a Z4 and Mini.

If they're smart, they would be. Mini's not much slower, it handles slightly better in my book, and you can get a fully-loaded Cooper S for well under $30000. Plus, Mini now offers convertible, even. I'd much rather have a Mini.

 

[lingenfelter]

Click Here

 

[ExigeEvan]

I'm surprised some people thing the Z8 is good looking and the Z4 less so.

I think the Z8's grill looks terrible, the entire front half looks squashed and there is hardly any 'flow' in the lines of the car. On the other hand the Z4 has a strong rounded front and the cars lines flow.

I think Z4 sales have been slow because it is priced a fair bit more than the Z3 so alot of people might have had problems upgrading

 

[Danny]

I loved the Z8 and the pre-bangle 7 Series.

 

[///M-Spec]

It starts at $33600, so you're technically right. But truthfully, he's right - the base Z4 doesn't have cruise control or a trip computer, has a standard manual top and cloth, manually-adjusted seats, and 16" alloys without fog lights. Basically, it's trash. $33600 may be a true base model, but $36500 is what one should expect to pay.

Nah. The problem with the Z4 2.5 is just that its slow, not because it doesn't have all the powered luxo-barge gee-gawks thrown in for the base price.

It's a sports car, not a boulevard crusier. The S2000 has barely any of those features standard or optional and its the best car in its class.

What the Z4 needs to give you for $33,600 is about 60 more horsepower and an LSD.


M

 

[X5.]

I think the Z8's grill looks terrible, the entire front half looks squashed and there is hardly any 'flow' in the lines of the car. On the other hand the Z4 has a strong rounded front and the cars lines flow.

👍

Exactly my opinion, i really dont like the Z8, to be quite frank i think its ugly. The Z4 however IMO looks very good, i think its awesome .

 

[JNasty4G63]

.....If they're smart, they would be. Mini's not much slower, it handles slightly better in my book, and you can get a fully-loaded Cooper S for well under $30000. Plus, Mini now offers convertible, even. I'd much rather have a Mini.

I wasn't talking about price or performance. I was just stating the fact that the Cooper cabrio is more of a competitor for the Beetle cabrio or PT cruiser cabrio. Not the Z4. The Z4 is a 2-seat roadster, not a 4-seat cabrio like those others.

Nah. The problem with the Z4 2.5 is just that its slow, not because it doesn't have all the powered luxo-barge gee-gawks thrown in for the base price.
It's a sports car, not a boulevard crusier. The S2000 has barely any of those features standard or optional and its the best car in its class.
What the Z4 needs to give you for $33,600 is about 60 more horsepower and an LSD.

I agree totally. The little roadsters like that aren't known for having all the gadgets and toys. They're known for being small, nimble, and fairly quick. Some more than others in those areas, but very similar. Like you said, the S2K has very few power options, but its a great little roadster. If you want all the toys, save some more and get an M3 cabrio.

Hilg

 

[X5.]

Just saw a 1series in real life today, it looked quite impressive. 👍

 

[1X83Z]

I wasn't talking about price or performance. I was just stating the fact that the Cooper cabrio is more of a competitor for the Beetle cabrio or PT cruiser cabrio. Not the Z4. The Z4 is a 2-seat roadster, not a 4-seat cabrio like those others.

So it performs similarly and it's priced way less despite offering more stuff yet it's not a competitor because ... it's got too many seats? What the hell kind of stupid way of comparing cars is that?

 

[JNasty4G63]

So it performs similarly and it's priced way less despite offering more stuff yet it's not a competitor because ... it's got too many seats? What the hell kind of stupid way of comparing cars is that?

Here, let me put it in more SIMPLE terms so you might get what I mean......

"Hi, my name is BOB, and I want a fun and fast vehicle. What should I get out of these 5 options????

Acura NSX (290hp, $90k) - 4.8 sec 0-60mph
Ford Mustang Cobra (390hp, $35k) - 4.7 sec 0-60mph
Mercedes E55 (495hp, $80k) - 4.5 sec 0-60mph
Subaru WRX STi (300hp, $33k) - 4.8 sec 0-60mph
BMW M3 SMG (340hp, $48k) - 4.6 sec 0-60mph

I just don't know what I want, can anyone help?????

Geee, do you see anything funny about that situation???? I mean, by your way of comparing cars, those are all candidates for someone to shop for because the performance is similar. But, in the real world, who the hell would be looking at all 5 of those cars. Same goes for the cars we're talking about. The Cooper is a nice car, and YES, it does have a cabrio now. But, its not just about #s with cars. Just because it might be as quick or handle as well as a Z4 doesn't mean that those are the only things people are look for.

As I said before, the Z4 is a ROADSTER, not a 4 place cabrio. Yes, they both have 4 wheels and you can put the top down on both, but thats about it on similarities. The direct competition for the Z4 are the TT, A4 Cabrio, Boxter, Z Cabrio, S2000, and Crossfire. I mean, while you're at it, why don't you just compare a Mini cabrio to a Benz SL???? I mean, obviously price doesn't matter to you, so what the hell??? The SL is way faster, and has more toys, so why wouldn't you get the SL instead???? You see what I'm getting at here??? Its not just a #s game.

Hilg

 

[1X83Z]

Nah. The problem with the Z4 2.5 is just that its slow, not because it doesn't have all the powered luxo-barge gee-gawks thrown in for the base price.

That isn't my point. My point is that most Z4s have that stuff, whether you want it or not - so you really can't GET one for the base price.

Here, let me put it in more SIMPLE terms so you might get what I mean......

Hey! Did I mention price when comparing the Mini to the Z4 or not? Actually I did BOTH FREAKING TIMES. I'll repeat it: the Z4 and Mini handle about the same and accelerate about the same. The Z4 offers much less stuff than the Mini for much more money. Therefore, the Mini is the better vehicle between the two. Yes, I realise they don't have the same amount of seats. But that argument is only used when discussing how seats limit handling or acceleration - moot in this case. Obviously you can't compare a Mini to an SL, because acceleration and spec are off, and you can't compare a Mustang Cobra to an NSX because spec and handling are off. But the Mini squarely hits all three marks and therefore IS an alternative.

Duh?

Christ, the freaking members here these days.

 

[JNasty4G63]

Hey! Did I mention price when comparing the Mini to the Z4 or not? Actually I did BOTH FREAKING TIMES. I'll repeat it: the Z4 and Mini handle about the same and accelerate about the same. The Z4 offers much less stuff than the Mini for much more money. Therefore, the Mini is the better vehicle between the two.

Better just because it has more stuff and has similar performance specs??? See, you just proved MY point. As I said, its not just about performance and having the most stuff with cars like the Z4. Its about having a fun little roadster. Why to you think the Miata sells so well???? And, do you see anyone with an S2000 complaining that they don't have navigation or a Harmon sound system on a regular basis??? I mean, you can get those on a Cooper and not an S2000, and the Coop is cheaper, so the Mini MUST be better, right????

Yes, I realise they don't have the same amount of seats. But that argument is only used when discussing how seats limit handling or acceleration - moot in this case.

What the hell are you talking about???? Since when did seats limit "handling or acceleration" in a car??? I'm not talking about more or less space, or weight. I'm talking about having a roadster. You obviously haven't ever ridden in a TR6 or Miata very often. Cars like those aren't built so you can have 3 of your friends come along as you go to the beach. They're built for you and 1 other person to have a nice drive. And, with the small ammount of luggage space they usually have, maybe a nice weekend out. Like I said, not direct competition between the 2 cars.

Obviously you can't compare a Mini to an SL, because acceleration and spec are off, and you can't compare a Mustang Cobra to an NSX because spec and handling are off. But the Mini squarely hits all three marks and therefore IS an alternative.

What the hell specs are you talking about???? Lets see if we can find any similarities......

Z4 (2.5) - I6, RWD, 2 seats, 0-60 = 6.9sec
Cooper Cabrio - I4, FWD, 4-5 seats, 0-60 = 7.0sec

So far, all I'm seeing is a similar acceleration, thats it. And, like I was explaining, cars like the Z4 aren't purchased because they are fast. If you want good handling and speed, neither of these cars would be that great to be honest.

And, why the hell can't you compare a Cobra and an NSX. Last I checked, they both run the same #s stock. That seems to be all you care about, so they are competitors in your book.

Duh?

Christ, the freaking members here these days.

I think it might be past your bedtime. I'm trying to have a discussion about this. No need to go and pout and get all grumpy.

Hilg

 

[///M-Spec]

That isn't my point. My point is that most Z4s have that stuff, whether you want it or not - so you really can't GET one for the base price.

Sure you could. You can order whatever you want from a dealer. My 330 ZHP was that way. I got the exact options I wanted; nothing more, nothing less.


M

 

[1X83Z]

And, why the hell can't you compare a Cobra and an NSX. Last I checked, they both run the same #s stock. That seems to be all you care about, so they are competitors in your book.

Spec. Anyway, now you're talking in circles - concession...

Sure you could. You can order whatever you want from a dealer. My 330 ZHP was that way. I got the exact options I wanted; nothing more, nothing less.

Can you haggle at all if you order that way, or do you have to pay MSRP?

 

[JNasty4G63]

Spec. Anyway, now you're talking in circles - concession...

I'm not talking in circles. You stated that the reason the Mini was "better" than the Z4 was because its performance and features were just as good, but cost less. I'm saying, by your way of rationalizing, its no different then comparing a $35k Mustang Cobra and a $90k Acura NSX. Both are rear drive, both have very good (and similar) performance, both have leather, nice sound systems, both are available with a removable of some sort (targa or cabrio). So, by your way of comparing things, the Cobra is the WAY better car because its almost 1/3 the price.

My point with this whole discussion isn't that either car is better than the other. They both serve much different markets. The Mini has great competition in the Beetle and PT (all $20k-ish, FWD, and 4-seaters), while the Z4 has great competition with the S2000 and 350Z (all $35k-ish, RWD, and roadsters). Both cars are great, we can agree on that. But, they just don't have a real competition with one another. The same way that a Cobra and an NSX don't have a real competition with each other. Thats all.

Hilg

 

[///M-Spec]

Can you haggle at all if you order that way, or do you have to pay MSRP?

You can haggle. I paid about 1200 over invoice for the 330 ZHP. Not a bad deal.

Normally they would prefer to sell you a car already on the lot, but if you order one from the next month's allocation it ends up being a wash in terms of flooring costs. They are motivated to sell either car.


M

 

[PublicSecrecy]

I was kind of skeptical about theyre designs too but...so far i basically agree with the design crew, except for the new 3 series. I thought the look of having the headlights partially covered it is what practically made the car. Also, the way they integrated the tell-taill BMW grill on the front, and the abrubt lines and curves of the trunk. IMO, anyway.

 

[1X83Z]

So, by your way of comparing things, the Cobra is the WAY better car because its almost 1/3 the price.

I agree fully. That might explain why, in my opinion, the Ford Mustang Cobra is the very best new car on sale, and why Acura NSXs are no longer sold through dealers.

Both cars are great, we can agree on that. But, they just don't have a real competition with one another.

Not only do I think that they should be in competition with each other, but I think they are. I keep giving you reasons on top of reasons why the cars should be compared, and you keep throwing back at me ... seats. I think maybe you need to realise not everyone holds the same viewpoint you do here - Mini and Z4 drivers care about handling most, not seats.

 

[JNasty4G63]

I agree fully. That might explain why, in my opinion, the Ford Mustang Cobra is the very best new car on sale, and why Acura NSXs are no longer sold through dealers.

Technically, the NSX is still being sold. They do have 2005 models being sold. Though, probably not for very long. And, it is 15 years old, so it's about time that it stops. At its introduction, it was a great piece. But, when it gets to be twice as old as it should have, it will most certainly not be that special anymore.

I keep giving you reasons on top of reasons why the cars should be compared, and you keep throwing back at me ... seats.

If you read ALL of my posts you'll see that I talked about more than that. Its more than seats. As I've said, they have differing drive layouts and engines, to go along with the seating differences. The Mini, Beetle, and PT all being $20k-ish, boosted 4cyl, FWD cars. While the Z4, 350Z, and Crossfire to name a few, are all $35k-ish, NA 6cyl, RWD cars. Its about more than just seating here.

I think maybe you need to realise not everyone holds the same viewpoint you do here - Mini and Z4 drivers care about handling most, not seats.

When did I ever say that everyone had to have my same viewpoint???? I'm just trying to get "YOU" to understand what I'm talking about in that the Mini has other competition to deal with in the PT, Beetle, and Sebring. I know what your saying about performance and handling and all, and it sounds good in theory. People just looking at cars for their function and features, not the $$$. But, when it comes down to it, almost everyone compares cars by their price, not the performance. Someone looking at those 4 cars I just mentioned have many things in common. They're all FWD, 4-seat, $20k-ish cabrios. If this were a perfect world, where $$$ was no object, I'm sure some people would compare a Mini and a Z4. And, in reality, I'm sure there are a few random people that have. But, in the real world, where $$$ dictates just about everything in cars, that just wont happen much. Yes, they have similar performance. But there are so many other things that they differ so greatly on, I just don't see too many people shopping between the two. But, I do see people comparing the Z4 to an S2000 or 350Z because of their $35k-ish prices, engines, and drive layout. See, its about more than just SEATS!!!

And seriously man, you need to just simmer a bit. I'm not trying to give you crap or anything. And, I'm not saying that everyone has to see things my way. I'm just telling you how I see it, and then you get mad about that. I'm just trying to have a discussion here, and your getting all grumpy. To quote yourself back to you........

...I think maybe you need to realise not everyone holds the same viewpoint you do here.

Hilg

 

[1X83Z]

Technically, the NSX is still being sold. They do have 2005 models being sold.

They haven't sold them at dealers in three years - you just order them from Acura and they either ship it to your house or to a dealer where you pick it up. That's the most an Acura dealer sees of the new NSX.

If you read ALL of my posts you'll see that I talked about more than that. Its more than seats. As I've said, they have differing drive layouts and engines, to go along with the seating differences. The Mini, Beetle, and PT all being $20k-ish, boosted 4cyl, FWD cars. While the Z4, 350Z, and Crossfire to name a few, are all $35k-ish, NA 6cyl, RWD cars. Its about more than just seating here.

And exactly why would one want RWD? Handling. Yet we seem to agree the Mini and Z4 handle the same. Moot!

When did I ever say that everyone had to have my same viewpoint????

I didn't say everyone had to have your viewpoint - I just don't think you understand the state of mind of potential customers. You're just telling me what you think of when someone says 'roadster':

Cars like those aren't built so you can have 3 of your friends come along as you go to the beach. They're built for you and 1 other person to have a nice drive. And, with the small ammount of luggage space they usually have, maybe a nice weekend out.

See? Buyers don't think that - you think that.

If this were a perfect world, where $$$ was no object, I'm sure some people would compare a Mini and a Z4. And, in reality, I'm sure there are a few random people that have. But, in the real world, where $$$ dictates just about everything in cars, that just wont happen much.

Why, again? The Minioffers the same thrills for a lower price with more stuff. So in a "real world, where $$$ dictates just about everything", wouldn't someone be ... more inclined to choose the Mini? Duh?

But there are so many other things that they differ so greatly on, I just don't see too many people shopping between the two.

Name one thing they differ on that actually matters. Seats, no. RWD, fine, but handling is the same. Engines, fine, but acceleration is the same.

And seriously man, you need to just simmer a bit.

Actually, this post included, I've put exactly zero thought into this argument, so... pretty calm over here - though the one who tells the other to calm down is usually the one who's getting upset.

 

[JNasty4G63]

And exactly why would one want RWD? Handling. Yet we seem to agree the Mini and Z4 handle the same. Moot!

Again with the #'s thing. No FWD and RWD cars handle the same. The numbers might come out similar when run through a slalom or skidpad. But, they go about it in much different ways.

I didn't say everyone had to have your viewpoint - I just don't think you understand the state of mind of potential customers. You're just telling me what you think of when someone says 'roadster'......See? Buyers don't think that - you think that.

Again, I never said you had to agree with me. And, what makes you think that YOU know the "state of mind of potential customers" so well????

The Minioffers the same thrills for a lower price with more stuff. So in a "real world, where $$$ dictates just about everything", wouldn't someone be ... more inclined to choose the Mini? Duh?

Then tell me this, since you seem to know how "potential customers" think. Why is it that any of the cars I've mentioned even sell??? I mean, the Mini offers so much for the $$$$, why wouldn't they get that instead???? Or, why does Honda sell so many Accords, when surely people could get the same thing for less $$$ in the Civic??? And, again with the "Duh" stuff. No need to get grumpy. Civilised discussion, please.

Name one thing they differ on that actually matters. Seats, no. RWD, fine, but handling is the same. Engines, fine, but acceleration is the same.

Again, I have to say, its not always about #'s with people. You say seats don't matter. Lets say, hypothetically, I'm married, retired, and my kids are now all off to school. I want to get a cabrio for those sunny days. Why would I need 4 seats if its just going to be me and the wife??? The midlife crisis theory, so to speak, its not new. Not everyone needs 4 seats. Hell, I can't remember the last time I had ANYTHING in my car besides my fiance or my golf clubs. I don't need 4 seats.

Handling I just discussed. The #'s might look the same, but the actual "handling" of each car is very different. Too much throttle in a corner in FWD, you understeer straight off the road. Too much in a RWD car and oversteer will get the back end out, and spin the car. The dynamics of FWD and RWD are very, VERY different.

Acceleration is the same thing. Sure, the #'s might look similar. But, comparing the delivery and throttle response of a NA I-6 and a SC I-4 is very different. Its not just about the # the car makes, but how it goes about giving you that power, and where in the power band. Sure, supercharging is better than turbo for delivery, but were still talking about a high strung 4cyl.

Actually, this post included, I've put exactly zero thought into this argument, so... pretty calm over here - though the one who tells the other to calm down is usually the one who's getting upset.

I'm not upset. I'm just trying to have a nice discussion about this, and you keep coming with the "Duh" and the "Christ, the freaking members here these days" stuff and the like. Again, I'm not trying to get you riled up, or piss you off. Just talking about cars.

Hilg

 

[1X83Z]

Again with the #'s thing. No FWD and RWD cars handle the same. The numbers might come out similar when run through a slalom or skidpad. But, they go about it in much different ways.

Whatever you say. I've driven the ****, they handle the same.

Again, I never said you had to agree with me. And, what makes you think that YOU know the "state of mind of potential customers" so well????

Me and potential customers, we're the saaaame.

I mean, the Mini offers so much for the $$$$, why wouldn't they get that instead????

People like the badge!!

Or, why does Honda sell so many Accords, when surely people could get the same thing for less $$$ in the Civic???

No you can't. V6, leather, 6-CD all escape Civic.

Why would I need 4 seats if its just going to be me and the wife???

Those people don't buy Z4s. Volvo wanted them to buy C70s but that doesn't seem to happen either...

I'm not upset. I'm just trying to have a nice discussion about this, and you keep coming with the "Duh" and the "Christ, the freaking members here these days" stuff and the like. Again, I'm not trying to get you riled up, or piss you off. Just talking about cars.

If it were up to me, this forum would be all Daewoo, all the time.

After all, I like my cars like I like my women: Korean.

What?

 

[JNasty4G63]

Whatever you say. I've driven the ****, they handle the same.

Well, I've auto-x'd and road raced for many years, and I can safely say they don't.

Me and potential customers, we're the saaaame.

Well, whats to say that I'm not looking at an S2000 (which I am)??? I, the potential customer, wouldn't ever think of comparing it to a Mini.

People like the badge!!

Along with other things. Like I said, its not always about #'s or badges, or those physical things with cars. My parents have had at least one BMW for as long as I can remember. They don't care about badges, or performance, or any of that stuff. They just like the feel of a Bimmer. The way, the doors, hood, trunk, and windows always sound solid when they shut, even after many years. The way the car feels very sporty and comfy inside without being over the top. And, they just like being part of the "BMW Fraternity" so to speak. Much the same way you see Wrangler people wave at each other, and talk all the time and what not. I can't even count how many times I've been somewhere with one of them, and they run into someone else with a Bimmer and they just chit chat for a while. They're just nice cars to own.

No you can't. V6, leather, 6-CD all escape Civic.

But, if its all about performance #'s, who cares about that stuff.

Those people don't buy Z4s. Volvo wanted them to buy C70s but that doesn't seem to happen either...

Funny, try telling that to my parents. They bought a Z Roadster last year when they came out for just that reason. And, you know what???? Not once did they ever consider a Mini. Maybe it was "all about badge" to them. I know that Nissan badge out front carries a lot of clout these days. And, the Volvo???? Those didn't sell period, regardless of who the market was for. When you're within earshot of M3 pricing, you better have a pretty damn good car for the $$$. And they didn't. They were nice looking, but "Volvo" and "coupe" just don't go so well together these days.

If it were up to me, this forum would be all Daewoo, all the time.

After all, I like my cars like I like my women: Korean.

What?

Hilg

 

[1X83Z]

You can haggle. I paid about 1200 over invoice for the 330 ZHP. Not a bad deal.

Normally they would prefer to sell you a car already on the lot, but if you order one from the next month's allocation it ends up being a wash in terms of flooring costs. They are motivated to sell either car.

Makes sense. They're probably more motivated to sell the ordered one since they don't have to worry about it going to leftover stock (and then having to do one of those "model year end" sales that no-one likes). BMW dealers might not have that problem, but Chevy dealers do. All the time.