New Nurburgring Lap Record.

[W3H5]

From teh webz:

Teh Webz
Toyota Motorsport GmbH’s (TMG), the German division of Toyota's racing division, set a new electric vehicle at the very prestigious (and very tricky) track of Nürburgring in Germany.

The vehicle was the electric TMG EV P002, which is powered by a 42kWh lithium-ion battery. Its electric motor generates 469 hp and allows the EV to go up to 161 MPH. It was driven by Jochen, setting a new record of 7 mins 22.329 secs, breaking the electric record previously set by TMG last August by more than 25 secs.

Hopefully this marks a progression in EVs.

More from teh webz:

Other Webz
Toyota Motorsport GmbH's (TMG) TMG EV P002 electric car set a new electric record on the legendary 20.8km Nurburgring Nordschleife circuit in Germany.

Using TMG's motorsport-tuned electric powertrain in the Radical chassis, driver Jochen Krumbach set a lap time of 7m22.329, breaking the electric record set by TMG last August by over 25 seconds.

Toyota EV P002 TMG
Photo: TMG

The press release indicates that this achievement marks the second milestone for TMG's electric powertrain this year following its new record at Pikes Peak International Hill Climb.

As with the Pikes Peak success, TMG's latest electric milestone used pioneering off-board battery-to-battery charging technology.

The TMG DC Quick Charger was developed in partnership with Schneider Electric to meet the challenge of recharging an electric race car at tracks without reliable access to grid power. This technology also gives the opportunity to charge with CO2 emission-free electric power from renewable sources.

Mounted in the rear of a TOYOTA Hiace van, the TMG DC Quick Charger uses Schneider Electric's EVlink(tm) technology and includes a 42kWh lithium ion battery, which can be charged direct from the AC power grid.

Toyota EV P002 TMG
Photo: TMG

After an overnight charge, the TMG DC Quick Charger is able to quickly deliver high levels of power to a battery-based electric car without additional installation or infrastructure, making it the perfect solution for electric motorsport.

"Since our Nurburgring record last year, we have developed our electric powertrain to deliver more power, more consistently, over a longer distance by managing the temperature of batteries, motors and inverter," said Ludwig Zeller, TMG General Manager Electrics and Electronics.

 

[oopssorryy]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the next Lexus Supercar go hybrid, and with a track car like this, the Toyota corporation has a bit of a leg up on the competition. If I remember right this is faster than the new Porsche?

 

[W3H5]

One thing I do know is that that technology should be developed for road going vehicles to silence the critics.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

One thing I do know is that that technology should be developed for road going vehicles to silence the critics.

 

[Exorcet]

This would be my favorite Toyota if it had a gas engine. Still nice though.

I'm all for the environment, but it's not that important for sports cars, at least the ones made to being going superfast. If you want to clean the environment while still making a hyper car, invest in lighter materials and maybe go with a slightly more efficient engine. The car drives better and uses less gas, everyone wins.

 

[Tornado]

If it had a gas engine, it would just be a regular Radical SR8.


And that's kinda the rub. While I'm sure there is a lot of complex engineering from intelligent minds going into this car, and I don't want to belittle their skill... putting an all-electric drivetrain into the car that currently holds the regular lap record anyway and then increasing your lap record from last year with it is kinda... well, who cares? It's barely worth noting Nurburgring lap times in the first place, so a modified version of a record holder setting a lap record when it already held the lap record last year anyway... just doesn't seem like the accomplishment that the press release implies it is. "The very fast car we repurposed to put electric stuff in goes a bit faster than when we drove it very fast last year."

 

[homeforsummer]

This would be my favorite Toyota if it had a gas engine. Still nice though.

I'm all for the environment, but it's not that important for sports cars, at least the ones made to being going superfast. If you want to clean the environment while still making a hyper car, invest in lighter materials and maybe go with a slightly more efficient engine. The car drives better and uses less gas, everyone wins.

The point of exercises like this is to improve electric technology, rather than change the concept of supercars. As Toronado points out, it's essentially a Radical shell with an electric motor and some batteries, rather than a production supercar like the Mercedes SLS Electric Drive.

Even so, I see no reason why at least some supercars can't be electric. The whole point of supercars is to push the boundaries of style, speed and engineering. None of those preclude the use of electric drivetrains.

"Cleaning the environment" is irrelevant in hypercars because so few are sold and so few are driven any distance. It's all about the specialness of them. Nobody buys a hugely expensive supercar to save money on gas, they buy it to have the best of the best - and again, that doesn't rule out the use of electric motors.

 

[Exorcet]

The point of exercises like this is to improve electric technology, rather than change the concept of supercars. As Toronado points out, it's essentially a Radical shell with an electric motor and some batteries, rather than a production supercar like the Mercedes SLS Electric Drive.

Understood.

Even so, I see no reason why at least some supercars can't be electric. The whole point of supercars is to push the boundaries of style, speed and engineering. None of those preclude the use of electric drivetrains.


"Cleaning the environment" is irrelevant in hypercars because so few are sold and so few are driven any distance. It's all about the specialness of them. Nobody buys a hugely expensive supercar to save money on gas, they buy it to have the best of the best - and again, that doesn't rule out the use of electric motors.

I can agree with pushing boundaries, what I didn't think about was specialness. Or perhaps I don't consider dropping overweight electric motors and batteries in a car special. That to me is what makes them less than ideal for sports cars. Until that issue is resolved I really don't care about electric motors in anything other than Civics.

Of course, we can't get to the point where electric cars weigh the same as gas powered cars without improving electric car design, and this Toyota could certainly be considered a step towards that.

I'm not trying to knock down what Toyota is doing, I'm just not really interested in the whole electric thing at the moment.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Electric motors can't imbue anything with a "special" nature. Not on their own at least. They are too robotic, too silent. Also, the linearly decaying torque curve makes them the opposite of what makes IC engines so much fun, which is the linearly increasing torque curve. Generally speaking, you get all of your torque and power at idle, and then it just decreases as you rev the motor up. Where's the fun in that?

(tesla)

vs

(z06)

Jag had a cool concept with the gas turbine generators spinning at 75,000rpm. But batteries are just not cool. There has to be some sort of onboard power generation system or it's just not a workable concept, at least here in the US. If you can't drive a car coast to coast, then I don't see the point.

 

[homeforsummer]

I can agree with pushing boundaries, what I didn't think about was specialness. Or perhaps I don't consider dropping overweight electric motors and batteries in a car special.

To make the distinction, the batteries are the heavy bit. Electric motors are quite light, even fairly powerful ones. In the SLS for example, they're certainly lighter than a 6+ liter V8 with a 7-speed automatic transmission, exhaust system, propshaft etc.

Batteries are the things that need to come down in weight.

Electric motors can't imbue anything with a "special" nature. Not on their own at least. They are too robotic, too silent. Also, the linearly decaying torque curve makes them the opposite of what makes IC engines so much fun, which is the linearly increasing torque curve. Generally speaking, you get all of your torque and power at idle, and then it just decreases as you rev the motor up. Where's the fun in that?

Question:

Have you actually driven an electric car? I'm not sure you're qualified to question the fun aspect unless you have.

While the numbers say the torque curve decreases with speed, the acceleration is incredibly linear in electric cars. They don't accelerate faster the faster you go* but they do accelerate constantly without any significant drop-off until much higher speeds. And I do mean constantly - no pauses for gearchanges.

However, I will agree that an electric motor on its own doesn't make something special, otherwise we'd all be worshipping electric toothbrushes. But then, an engine out of a car - on a dyno, for example - is just a noisy, useless lump of metal. Most mechanical or electrical things lack "specialness" until you give them a job to do... like sticking them inside a Tesla Model S or making them lap the 'Ring in a record time**.

If you can't drive a car coast to coast, then I don't see the point.

What regular car goes coast to coast then?... Without filling up?

The battery thing is irrelevant. Charging times are the important bit. A battery that can be charged in 5 minutes is no less useful than a gasoline car that can be filled in five minutes. And battery tech is improving, which often seems forgotten.



* Though technically, neither do internally-combusted regular cars - the rate of acceleration drops off the faster you go once you've passed a few gears...

** For the record, I hate 'Ring laptime willy-waving with a passion.

 

[hawkeye122]

See how the power and torque curves go conveniently around Freeway cruising speeds, and the torque drops off after a 0-60 run? I bet they could make an electric motor with more top-end torque if they wanted.

 

[homeforsummer]

See how the power and torque curves go conveniently around Freeway cruising speeds, and the torque drops off after a 0-60 run? I bet they could make an electric motor with more top-end torque if they wanted.

The alternative is a reliable, simple gearbox to multiply torque just as it does with an engine. Though I suspect there's some way to go with motor technology too, to further develop them. Not that an electric motor needs much developing - they're already around 90% efficient in most cases.

 

[Dennisch]

In theory you could stick an electric engine onto a regular gearbox, I think you just need a rev limiter on the engine, otherwise the first time you go maximum revs on your electric engine, everything inside your gearbox will change position.

I always wanted to build something like that. Just pull out the normal engine, put a 50-75 hp electric one back in, and see what happens!

 

[homeforsummer]

It's certainly possible, as a lot of those who home-build EVs keep the original gearbox (admittedly, most leave the car in a gear, like 3rd, for a usable speed range).

A reduction gearing system, like most current electric cars, is still ideal for them however. It's very simple for a start, and also saves weight. Gearboxes are heavy buggers...

 

[1241Penguin]

Wait, so why haven't we seen more traditional gearboxes on electric cars? The only car I can think of with an electric motor (albiet in addition to a gasoline engine) is the Honda CRZ.

 

[homeforsummer]

The old Insight and the first-gen Civic Hybrid also had regular manual gearboxes, but then those are all mild hybrids - the electric motor just sits between the engine and gearbox and does some assisting on occasion. It doesn't really matter what gearbox those have, as all it's doing is taking drive from whatever spinning object it's connected to. Some other hybrids, both mild and full, use torque-converter autos, others use CVT, and VW has recently launched the Jetta Hybrid with a dual-clutch 'box.

Then you have companies like Toyota/Lexus and Ford, who use what's really the best drivetrain for a hybrid, which is a planetary gearset or "e-CVT". It's not actually a CVT, but behaves like one. A set of cogs between the electric motor and engine split the power as necessary between the two, before sending it to the wheels. Sounds complicated, but short of a reduction gear system (as seen on most electric cars) it's by far the simplest and most reliable transmission on a production car.

Then, as above, there's a reduction gear. Turns high RPMs of electric motors into a slightly lower RPM at the wheels. Hugely simple, and helps provide EVs with a nice direct drive system.

I'm not entirely sure why we've not seen more traditional gearboxes on electric cars, but I'm going to hazard a few guesses:

Weight - a reduction gear is quite simple and light. EVs are typically quite heavy for their size (blame batteries) so anything that keeps the weight down - like not putting in a large, heavy gearbox - is prioritized.

Space - Gearboxes aren't just relatively heavy (at least ones that can handle chunky electric motor torque), but relatively large. When you've filled the floorpan with batteries the last thing you want is to accommodate a gearbox too.

Complexity - A reduction gear is a handful of cogs in a sealed unit. A regular transmission is many, many cogs, shafts, a flywheel, clutch etc. Loads more moving parts, a handful of which (clutch in particular) which need replacing every so often. Essentially, it's many more pieces to go wrong.

Driving experience - This is a more speculative one, but having driven several EVs I can say that one of the appeals is that you don't have to change gear. And not just in a "I don't have to coordinate leg and hand to move between gears" sort of way, but in the sense that there is no mechanical object shifting away beneath me. Much of the appeal is that it's seamless and simple to drive.

The home-builders I mentioned above are kind of stuck with gearboxes, to some extent. It's already included in the car they're converting, for a start: Much easier to keep the existing transmission and attach an electric motor to it, than design a reduction gear system from scratch. And since the car they're converting was a regular car in the first place, they don't need to find a space for the gearbox either - it's already there.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

To make the distinction, the batteries are the heavy bit. Electric motors are quite light, even fairly powerful ones. In the SLS for example, they're certainly lighter than a 6+ liter V8 with a 7-speed automatic transmission, exhaust system, propshaft etc.

Batteries are the things that need to come down in weight.



Question:

Have you actually driven an electric car? I'm not sure you're qualified to question the fun aspect unless you have.

While the numbers say the torque curve decreases with speed, the acceleration is incredibly linear in electric cars. They don't accelerate faster the faster you go* but they do accelerate constantly without any significant drop-off until much higher speeds. And I do mean constantly - no pauses for gearchanges.

However, I will agree that an electric motor on its own doesn't make something special, otherwise we'd all be worshipping electric toothbrushes. But then, an engine out of a car - on a dyno, for example - is just a noisy, useless lump of metal. Most mechanical or electrical things lack "specialness" until you give them a job to do... like sticking them inside a Tesla Model S or making them lap the 'Ring in a record time**.



What regular car goes coast to coast then?... Without filling up?

The battery thing is irrelevant. Charging times are the important bit. A battery that can be charged in 5 minutes is no less useful than a gasoline car that can be filled in five minutes. And battery tech is improving, which often seems forgotten.



* Though technically, neither do internally-combusted regular cars - the rate of acceleration drops off the faster you go once you've passed a few gears...

** For the record, I hate 'Ring laptime willy-waving with a passion.

I've driven a Golf Cart

I'm totally ok with electric propulsion by the way, I just hate batteries. They are too heavy and take far too long to charge. Onboard power generation seems to be much more promising.

 

[homeforsummer]

I've driven a Golf Cart

Doesn't count

I'm totally ok with electric propulsion by the way, I just hate batteries. They are too heavy and take far too long to charge. Onboard power generation seems to be much more promising.

Sadly, it has its own issues. With the Jag you mentioned, it was noise - which is why the production car will have a regular engine as the on-board generator (though I think they're still keeping turbines for a race version of the car). Hydrogen won't be going anywhere without huge advancements, and the issue with regular on-board generating cars, like the Chevy Volt, is that you still need heavy batteries to store charge for when it's needed.

I still reckon batteries are the best bet, they just need to be lighter, cheaper, offer longer range and charge quicker. Sounds like a big ask, but I've lost count of the number of top universities and engineering companies working on it.

Cost will come down with volume. We've already seen this with Toyota Prius batteries, which are about half the price they were a decade ago. Toyota sells millions of the things which helps economies of scale somewhat.

The rest will come with technology improvements (...payrolled by volume!). Give a battery greater capacity, and you can make it smaller for an equivalent range. Make a battery smaller and lighter, and the motor doesn't need to work as hard for equivalent performance, meaning greater range. And develop a battery that charges quickly without degrading its performance, and you can make the battery smaller and lighter, as a low-ish range isn't as important if it only takes minutes to charge. It's all about lots of compounded benefits as the tech improves.

 

[Luminis]

So, Toyota took the current record holder and made it slower.

I'm jesting, of course, but to me, the thing that kills an EV isn't the question whether it can be fast. The problems one would have to solve are, in my opinion, more about the practical use of EVs as econoboxes. A car is meant to offer personal mobility, but an EV that needs to be charged for several hours after beign driven for a hundred miles has a serious handicap in that regard.

As long as EVs can't fulfill their primary role just as well as conventional engined cars, it seems somewhat pointless to try and break lap records with an EV. It's a nice publicity stunt, though - but I wonder what audience it would be aimed at. The next generation of Prius drivers?

 

[Exorcet]

It's the same thing with racing gas powered cars, racing let you experiment with new techniques and technology. While you're spending money on that is also generates interest in your brand.

I think that the Toyota also aims to break the Prius stereotype for electric vehicle power. They don't have to be slow and boring.

As far as practicality goes, having to charge for hours and hours isn't necessarily a deal breaker. If you're just commuting most of the time, you just let the car charge over night.

 

[Keef]

Progression in EVs? Not really. At least not when you're packing 4 people and luggage into a sedan that already weighs 3500+ pounds. Going fast with a battery and electric motor is no feat. Going far is something completely different.

 

[niky]

Indeed. And part of that problem is the desire to take that 3,500 pound glider along for the ride.

To transition to a completely gasless transport system (which, to be honest, is logistically impossible) requires a general overhaul of the expectations and desires of the consumer.

To whit:

-the desire to haul around a two-ton metal box everywhere you go. We didn't do it when we had horses. We didn't do it when the first cars came out. There's no real need to do it now.

-the desire for that metal box to travel 100 mph.

-the desire for that metal box to feel just like your living room. Actually, most cars are more comfortable than my living room. The only difference is my TV is bigger.

Granted, few of us are willing to give up those desires... but that is likely what's necessary if we are ever going to have electric cars that cost little to run or maintain.

-

Was going to reply to some of the gearbox comments, but HFS covered everything... some quick notes:

EVs definitely can use gearboxes, and multiple drives will give them fuel economy benefits, just as with gasoline engines.

OEMs don't use gearboxes because it's hard to find something light enough and robust enough to effectively mate to an electric. And adding one would add to the price and weight of an already expensive and heavy car.

Most homebuilts with the bigger, more powerful motors (Transwarp) will either go gearless or simply stick the stock box in fourth gear (1:1 ratio) and fuhgeddaboutit. The guys who use smaller motors (forklift or industrial) will sometimes need to grab 2nd gear while going uphill.

Feeling an EV accelerate effortlessly and seamlessly up to speed can make you feel like a dinosaur. Here we have an engine that makes an ICE look like a mechanical wristwatch. Yes, many of us will prefer to wear mechanical wristwatches for various reasons (and me, I'm still looking for a new mechanical alarm clock to replace my old one...), but there's no denying an electric is just better.

Unfortunately, while wristwatch batteries weight almost nothing and cost almost nothing to replace, the same can't be said for EV batteries.

 

[homeforsummer]

Feeling an EV accelerate effortlessly and seamlessly up to speed can make you feel like a dinosaur. Here we have an engine that makes an ICE look like a mechanical wristwatch. Yes, many of us will prefer to wear mechanical wristwatches for various reasons (and me, I'm still looking for a new mechanical alarm clock to replace my old one...), but there's no denying an electric is just better.

It's one thing I find ironic about the way the auto industry is heading.

We've all heard the stories that 80% of people or whatever commute less than 40 miles a day, even in the U.S. I.e, significantly under the range of most electric cars, even in poor conditions where range suffers.

These people, for the most part, drive fairly uninteresting cars. Fairly uninteresting cars that customers increasingly demand be as smooth and quiet as possible. Guess what EVs are good at?...

Smooth and quiet are pretty much benefits number one and two on list of things that EVs do well. In theory, they're perfect for the majority of consumers. A Vauxhall/Opel Ampera is so much nicer to drive than an Astra it's not even funny. It's just, unfortunately, double the price.

Ditto I expect between Leaf and Versa/Tiida (I've somehow not yet driven a Leaf). And I've recently driven the 3rd-gen Smart Fortwo Electric Drive, which wipes the floor with the petrol version, not least because it ditches the jerky gearbox. It's the car the Smart should have been all along.

There's a tipping point and we're probably still a decade away from it, but as soon as perception swings I reckon EVs will take off quite quickly. Price is still the absolute number one factor I think too. Recharge time and range follow, then everything else.

 

[Tornado]

Absolutely. We should encourage John Q. Beige to buy his taupe Camry commuter car as an electric car instead.

He will have a better experience in his drive to work, it will free up companies to develop exciting cars and not worry as much about mileage or emissions from them since their volume sellers will undercut limits by so much, and it will greatly reduce energy dependency and blah blah blah. It's a win for all involved.

 

[BLJK Ice]

Nope not just yet the record for all of Nurb is The king's record (Sebastian Bellof) but if it's class record then yea ok then.

 

[homeforsummer]

Sebastian Bellof

Who?...

 

[Crash]

Nope not just yet the record for all of Nurb is The king's record (Sebastian Bellof) but if it's class record then yea ok then.

The article in the first post very clearly states that this new record is for electric vehicles.

 

[BLJK Ice]

Who?...

I fail lol sorry about that yea Stefan not sebastian mixed with vett