New Online Racing Penalties Leave Gran Turismo’s Top Drivers Fuming

  • Thread starter Famine
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Seems that way, especially based on the article Famine posted. It doesn't seem like PD have the ability to change the points after the race. Like in F1 if you finish 1st but a pen demotes you to 2nd you get 18 points, the guy who was in 2nd gets promoted to 1st for 25 points, and everyone from P3 down is unaffected. Seems simple enough!

"Curiously, the disqualification has only removed each affected driver’s points from that round, with those who finished behind them not being promoted to the higher points — likely as a consequence of how points are calculated and the multiple entries for each round."

Here, it's like PD doesn't know how to do that so they just eliminate the "problem driver" (and I use that term very loosely as the Alfa is the only example I've seen thus far that was a malicious problem driver) simply gets eliminated and all the other points just stay as-is. It just seems so... lazy.
That's really just my guess. Okay, maybe a inference, based on the observed outcome and what we know about GTWS points and slots.

tl;dr: Even if they could just press a "DQ this guy and bump everyone in the race up one spot" button, the effects of the "incidents" - both immediate and longer-term - have already occurred and cannot be undone easily or fairly.

What they've done is disqualified the driver from the round, no matter in which slot the infraction occurred. I can see that this makes some rational sense - you can't just destroy races* and then go on to reap rewards later on when the other people may not have the opportunity to race slots 2/3 - even if it looks heavy handed.

However, after that initial choice it's a nightmare to do anything other than what they've done.

We know that each lobby's points are calculated based on the average DR of the lobby, and that poses the question: if they're disqualified, do they "finish" last or are they erased from the lobby entirely? If it's the latter, then their DR is removed from the average DR of the lobby and the outcome will see everyone's points affected - maybe for the worse, which is hardly fair on the people who beat them.

However, regardless of which path they choose there, it only affects that lobby. Players, including the DQ player, may have raced again that day in the hope of getting more points. Firstly, would they have even done so if they were one place (and up to 25pt) better off in the incident-affected race? If not, that affects the next race they choose to enter and the players in it who may have got more points from better finishing positions caused by the absence of a live event-tier driver. Secondly, if they got more points in the subsequent race it would make any adjustment to the previous race moot. Thirdly the affected player would be DQed from that race as well, affecting the points of that lobby in the same way as the first (and if it was the first and second races, the next race too!).

And that's just championship points; there's also the effects on DR downstream. In the 11 days between the first race and the first penalties, the players who raced in that first race and came out with the DR they came out with may have driven dozens of other races each - going in with the wrong DR, leading to the wrong DR exchange calculations, giving everyone else in the lobby the wrong DR - affecting hundreds of other players, all making decisions based on their DR ahead of the next championship races. And also causing the wrong points for Manu R1, Toyota R2, and Manu R2, and decisions based on the points scored each slot there too.

This can't easily be rectified - and the choices based on the wrongly calculated points scored cannot be rectified at all. It doesn't make sense to attempt it either, because someone (probably a lot of people) otherwise entirely unaffected by the original issue is going to end up being disadvantaged by it.


If they're going to be doing this (and I'm very glad that they are; driving standards have been dog** for far too long), it needs to be a lot less than 11 days after the fact. For that matter, as it's only happening to "top split" (ugh) races, it needs to be done in a dedicated "top split" (ugh) race. Like the old Top 16 Superstars races, which they can't do because only last year's finalists are S Ranked drivers now and in any case the way they used to do it basically ended the hopes of 95% of A+ drivers a quarter of the way through the season.

It's... a mess. On top of a mess. Hiding inside a third, larger mess. And a bit of a PR nightmare. Luckily Sony just laid off a whole bunch of PR people (including one of our GTWS contacts) so that's just great.


*Not that any of the original incidents we saw destroyed anyone's race; the worst we saw was about a second's swing between drivers. The fact that such a massive punishment was levied for such a minor barely-an-incident is incredible.
**Not helped by the non-punishments given in showpiece live events; had this current method been used in 2022, Fraga would have been the first two-time champion (though I always felt Miyazono was the most blameless of the front three)...
 
You can’t add F1 rules and regulations to gokarkting. I mean you could but it would be a mess. It’s an inherent design flaw in you cannot have high level rules in a low level ver of the sport.

GT7 is not a 100% sim. It is a low level ver of a sim. Just look at the dumbed down braking physics to make it easier to drive. It’s penalty system is an inherent design flaw in trying to mimic real world motor racing rules while missing other real world features like not having real world equivalence for pit stopping or race lengths that are an integral part of racing along with penalties.

The more and more they play with penalties either direction, the cracks will be clearly evident showing it as an inherent design flaw that cannot be fixed without redoing the entire functionality of how races are organized and implemented in GT7.

I’m all for them continuing to break it so no one can deny how bad GT7 competition is in comparison to other sims. It’s a fun game, but not even close to good enough for any type of sponsored competition with the lack of racecraft accountability.
 
Leave it to PD to find new ways to make a bad situation worse.... They really have no idea what they're doing with their penalty system/sportsmanship.
 
Bertani’s case was a pretty clear divebomb. Nobody would be expecting or could possibly plan for such a move when already occupied. That’s a situation a real race driver wouldn’t have attempted to “seize the opportunity” because they know that window will only be open for a millisecond and the risk is high.

But perhaps all those little bumps and grinds should simply be times penalties. They should definitely count.
 
This entire situation could have been avoided if PD took the time to develop a penalty system that actually works. I really think this is where GT7/PD have to define what this game is supposed to be. Is it a sim or is it something lesser?

You can't have a penalty system that rewards Twisted Metal fans and punishes people who want to drive respectably. They really made us watch a 2 hour video on sportsmanship and said that was enough lol.
 
Bertani’s case was a pretty clear divebomb.
Really? I'm not seeing it.

He's the car in third. He hangs back while the front two get into it...

1715693545155.png


... and cuts back inside on the second apex:

1715693653342.png


This is the moment of impact, with the slowed car (due to being biffed off-line, and returning while trying to take the racing line on borderline bald tyres) mid-track due to the car that biffed them still partially overlapping on the outside:

1715693908362.png


I understand a "divebomb" to be a move in which someone sends one down the inside on the brakes in full knowledge that there's not going to be room for both cars to make the corner unless the one on the outside cedes the turn-in.

There's only one car that could apply to in the video, and it's not Bertani's:

1715694275087.png
 
Did PolUrra get disqualified as well?

Also, can someone please link the second xit of this one (I see "1/2" so I assume there is a second one)? The only way I can get it myself is to create an account in the xitter and I don't wanna do that. Thank you in advance!
 
Did PolUrra get disqualified as well?

Also, can someone please link the second xit of this one (I see "1/2" so I assume there is a second one)? The only way I can get it myself is to create an account in the xitter and I don't wanna do that. Thank you in advance!

No, PolUrra did not have his points from the round cancelled
Also, here's Frenky's second part of the tweet chain
 
Did PolUrra get disqualified as well?

Also, can someone please link the second xit of this one (I see "1/2" so I assume there is a second one)? The only way I can get it myself is to create an account in the xitter and I don't wanna do that. Thank you in advance!

This is the part 2:

2/2 I always try to race as clean as I can, you tell me if this was worthy of such a harsh penalization.Anyway, sorry for Pol, I will race avoiding any sort of contact from now on, and I will expect the same from every other driver, especially from world champions and wt drivers

Edit: Beaten too it by trying to find the button to put the writing in a pretty box
 
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I have a wild idea seeing as how I've had a couple of races ruined by the actions of overzealous driver.

If "Heavy Damage" is turned on for a race, it should be applied to the offending driver who hit the other person. The innocent party who was rammed should have Light Damage applied which self-heals as usual, and the offending driver should have the Heavy Damage applied that requires pitting to fix it. Of course if you just overshot a corner and ran off the track smashing into a wall all on your own that's on you and you take the Heavy Damage in that case.

Seems fair to me 🤷‍♂️
 
I have a wild idea seeing as how I've had a couple of races ruined by the actions of overzealous driver.

If "Heavy Damage" is turned on for a race, it should be applied to the offending driver who hit the other person. The innocent party who was rammed should have Light Damage applied which self-heals as usual, and the offending driver should have the Heavy Damage applied that requires pitting to fix it. Of course if you just overshot a corner and ran off the track smashing into a wall all on your own that's on you and you take the Heavy Damage in that case.

Seems fair to me 🤷‍♂️
While that's not a bad idea, the problem is most daily races aren't long enough for that to be effective, the idiots just quit.

I think PD needs to take a players historical SR trend into consideration and then adjust how quickly said player can rank up. For example...

We've all had a bad or two and you lose some SR. But that happens every few months or so, it's not a daily/weekly thing. A player like that should be able to accrue their lost SR at a decent rate.

However, the drivers who are constantly shuffling from C <--S ranking every week, their ability to get back to the higher tiers should be degraded significantly. Make it so it'll take them 5 months of clean racing to get back to S ranking.

PD won't do it though...
 
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I have a wild idea seeing as how I've had a couple of races ruined by the actions of overzealous driver.

If "Heavy Damage" is turned on for a race, it should be applied to the offending driver who hit the other person. The innocent party who was rammed should have Light Damage applied which self-heals as usual, and the offending driver should have the Heavy Damage applied that requires pitting to fix it. Of course if you just overshot a corner and ran off the track smashing into a wall all on your own that's on you and you take the Heavy Damage in that case.

Seems fair to me 🤷‍♂️
I can't see that working as things are at the moment, if the game can't work out who is at fault to punish them properly with penalties it's not going to know which car to give the damage too so the victim probably gets twice the pain. A lot of the contact people are being excluded for this season isn't heavy enough to cause any damage either.
 
While that's not a bad idea, the problem is most daily races aren't long enough for that to be effective, the idiots just quit.

I think PD needs to take a players historical SR trend into consideration and then adjust how quickly said player can rank up. For example...

We've all had a bad or two and you lose some SR. But that happens every few months or so, it's not a daily/weekly thing. A player like that should be able to accrue their lost SR at a decent rate.

However, the drivers who are constantly shuffling from C <--S ranking every week, their ability to get back to the higher tiers should be degraded significantly. Make it so it'll take them 5 months of clean racing to get back to S ranking.

PD won't do it though...
so basically what Forza just introduced
 
No, PolUrra did not have his points from the round cancelled
Just awful. I don't understand PD's stewarding decision here. The arm-chair steward in me notes the following:
1. Contact#1 possibly initiated by Spanish. Possible divebomb worthy of penalty. Can't determine without having accurate replays.
2. Contact#2 initiated by Italian in black. The Italian took satisfactory precaution to avoid any possible incident by braking at the apex. Any kind of outcome is a racing incident and not the Italian's fault.
3. Unsafe rejoin by Spanish. He was officially off-track as determined by 3 wheels outside the limits.
4. Contact#3 initiated by Spanish on the white Italian.

Going by PD's illogical punishments, Spanish should be disqualified and others should retain their points.

PD needs to copy it since they can't seem to think of anything on their own.
Like Famine has noted in the relevant article, this potentially allows a driver to have one dirty race to win and not have it considerably affect their SR.
 
Like Famine has noted in the relevant article, this potentially allows a driver to have one dirty race to win and not have it considerably affect their SR.
I don't think that really matters for folks who are participating in Daily Races. I'm more-so speaking about the penalty system being trash holistically, not just in regard to PD's competitions. I'll gladly let someone win a race by tanking their SR if I won't have to be in a lobby with them for the next 6 months lol.

PD can and SHOULD have a separate system for their championships that goes a step further.
 
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Another one posted half an hour ago, the Porsche and Alfa Romeo have both been disqualified:


Wow, that's dreadful from the Alfa.
iRacing hand out 1 week to 1 month bans for intentional wrecks and that should be the case after this incident here too.
 
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I dunno..

I think the shock factor of these retroactive penalties is going to clean up the top split driving standards very quickly. Only question is wether or not there will be a trickle down effect to us normal people
 
I dunno..

I think the shock factor of these retroactive penalties is going to clean up the top split driving standards very quickly. Only question is wether or not there will be a trickle down effect to us normal people
I can't see it happening to the non professionals with how they have no incentive to not do it. No one gets banned, suspended or their results altered so I can't see them looking at this and suddenly changing the way they drive.
 
I can't see it happening to the non professionals with how they have no incentive to not do it. No one gets banned, suspended or their results altered so I can't see them looking at this and suddenly changing the way they drive.
I can. You go into some of these discords where the top split guys hang out, and these nerds take this stuff seriously. It’s crazy.

I equate most of these guys to very skilled gamers, rather than racers….or even drivers for that matter. They’re going to take advantage of whatever the game gives them, and they know exactly what they’re doing. Short of live stewarding, harsh retroactive penalties is the only way to go IMO.





But seriously…

You gotta get a load of some these discords. It’s like a Mean Girl’s club in there




IMG_4526.gif
 
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I can. You go into some of these discords where the top split guys hang out, and these nerds take this stuff seriously. It’s crazy.

I equate most of these guys to very skilled gamers, rather than racers….or even drivers for that matter. They’re going to take advantage of whatever the game gives them, and they know exactly what they’re doing. Short of live stewarding, harsh retroactive penalties is the only way to go IMO.





But seriously…

You gotta get a load of some these discords. It’s like a Mean Girl’s club in there




View attachment 1355430

How DARE you?! Mean Girls is an iconic bible on it girl life. These Discords couldn't hold a candle to Regina George
 
That's really just my guess. Okay, maybe a inference, based on the observed outcome and what we know about GTWS points and slots.

tl;dr: Even if they could just press a "DQ this guy and bump everyone in the race up one spot" button, the effects of the "incidents" - both immediate and longer-term - have already occurred and cannot be undone easily or fairly.

What they've done is disqualified the driver from the round, no matter in which slot the infraction occurred. I can see that this makes some rational sense - you can't just destroy races* and then go on to reap rewards later on when the other people may not have the opportunity to race slots 2/3 - even if it looks heavy handed.

However, after that initial choice it's a nightmare to do anything other than what they've done.

We know that each lobby's points are calculated based on the average DR of the lobby, and that poses the question: if they're disqualified, do they "finish" last or are they erased from the lobby entirely? If it's the latter, then their DR is removed from the average DR of the lobby and the outcome will see everyone's points affected - maybe for the worse, which is hardly fair on the people who beat them.

However, regardless of which path they choose there, it only affects that lobby. Players, including the DQ player, may have raced again that day in the hope of getting more points. Firstly, would they have even done so if they were one place (and up to 25pt) better off in the incident-affected race? If not, that affects the next race they choose to enter and the players in it who may have got more points from better finishing positions caused by the absence of a live event-tier driver. Secondly, if they got more points in the subsequent race it would make any adjustment to the previous race moot. Thirdly the affected player would be DQed from that race as well, affecting the points of that lobby in the same way as the first (and if it was the first and second races, the next race too!).

And that's just championship points; there's also the effects on DR downstream. In the 11 days between the first race and the first penalties, the players who raced in that first race and came out with the DR they came out with may have driven dozens of other races each - going in with the wrong DR, leading to the wrong DR exchange calculations, giving everyone else in the lobby the wrong DR - affecting hundreds of other players, all making decisions based on their DR ahead of the next championship races. And also causing the wrong points for Manu R1, Toyota R2, and Manu R2, and decisions based on the points scored each slot there too.

This can't easily be rectified - and the choices based on the wrongly calculated points scored cannot be rectified at all. It doesn't make sense to attempt it either, because someone (probably a lot of people) otherwise entirely unaffected by the original issue is going to end up being disadvantaged by it.


If they're going to be doing this (and I'm very glad that they are; driving standards have been dog** for far too long), it needs to be a lot less than 11 days after the fact. For that matter, as it's only happening to "top split" (ugh) races, it needs to be done in a dedicated "top split" (ugh) race. Like the old Top 16 Superstars races, which they can't do because only last year's finalists are S Ranked drivers now and in any case the way they used to do it basically ended the hopes of 95% of A+ drivers a quarter of the way through the season.

It's... a mess. On top of a mess. Hiding inside a third, larger mess. And a bit of a PR nightmare. Luckily Sony just laid off a whole bunch of PR people (including one of our GTWS contacts) so that's just great.


*Not that any of the original incidents we saw destroyed anyone's race; the worst we saw was about a second's swing between drivers. The fact that such a massive punishment was levied for such a minor barely-an-incident is incredible.
**Not helped by the non-punishments given in showpiece live events; had this current method been used in 2022, Fraga would have been the first two-time champion (though I always felt Miyazono was the most blameless of the front three)...
A butterfly effect of poo exacerbated by PD's week-and-a-half delay in communications.

Sucks for the drivers. Obviously the ones that got DQ'ed but even all the others in the effected race(s).
 
Please PD, do what’s best for your franchise, roll back the focus on E-Sports, and cater for the overwhelming majority, the single-player community.

E-Sports had a short-lived boom but it’s back to catering for a niche of a niche. GTWS does little to enhance the reach of the franchise and the cost & logistics of live events can no longer be justified.

It’s time to focus resources on improving the single-player experience. I accept there will continue to be an online aspect of the game. But PD would be better served bringing high profile streamers onboard - they are the ones who demonstrate & articulate why online racing can be fun.

GTWS is all about the top 5% of players and does not represent the spirit of Gran Turismo.
 
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Another one posted half an hour ago, the Porsche and Alfa Romeo have both been disqualified:


What the Alfa Romeo did was pure filth and honestly, the kind of thing I'd dare say deserves disqualification from the season for. I cannot for the life of me understand why the Porsche got a disqualification for that though.

What the hell?! :boggled:
 
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