Next-Generation Cars that Kill Their Previous Generation

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Lotus won't make a new Elise GT-1, there is no GT1 class anymore, and the last one was a failure. eliseracer is right, the Elise is nothing like a rice fighter, the Elise has never tried to be a low price superexotic either, it's just a lightweight British sportscar. The Esprit is heading more towards Exotic but it's not in production again.
 
Yup. I can go into explaining the rummors with the next Esprit/M250 (see?) but there simply are too many. All I hope is they introduce the M250 FULLY int he US market, along with overseas.

The current GT1 still races in a series in the US...
 
Originally posted by M5Power

I don't actually find that to be true.

The I30/I35 is not a bad car. But the G is so much better all around, I can't imagine why anyone would choose the I over the G.


M
 
Originally posted by Famine
The "Classic" Impreza was the number one driver's Impreza, even when the Bugeye came out. The 22B was still the quickest and the RB5 still the best. But the Impreza III blows it away - the WR1 will wipe a 22B off the face of the Earth for pure speed and acceleration, and is supposedly better to drive than the RB5 (and my brother is selling his RB5 to help buy the WR1). WR1 sees 60mph, 100mph and the 1/4 mile quicker than a Ferrari 360 (4.2, 10.6 and 11.0s respectively).
Umm, last stats I seen on the WR1 has it doing 60 mph in 4.2 ( same ), 0-100 mph in 10.67 ( same ), and 1/4 mile in 12.8 ( not same ). The 22B made the 1/4 mile in 12.8 if my memory serves me right, so this WR1 isn't that much greater yet. It still has alot to prove, but I do believe it should be a step forward in handling performance ( hopefully )

11.0 1/4 mile would be crazy :eek: That's nearing McLaren F1 / Ferrari Enzo territory there hehe.
 
Originally posted by eliseracer
Yup. I can go into explaining the rummors with the next Esprit/M250 (see?) but there simply are too many. All I hope is they introduce the M250 FULLY int he US market, along with overseas.

The current GT1 still races in a series in the US...
The M250 was cancelled, which series does the Elise GT1 still race in? It's got to be run privatley and I would guess the series is more low key because the car was 1- crap, 2- it's old for a race car, 1997 was when it ran.
 
Originally posted by M5Power
- the Mazda RX-8 puts the 'RX' name to shame
I used to think the same as you for this. But as a matter of fact, this is quite a surprising car, especially considering price. It may be underpowered compared to an RX7, but this is still a driver's car, and the handling is very predictable and very good. Even as you go beyond its limits, you can still recuperate. And when it produces identical lap times compared to a current M3 and 350Z around a track, I would say mission accomplished to Mazda! ... Could have been abit better in the looks department, but that's sorta growing on me too now.
 
Originally posted by live4speed
The M250 was cancelled, which series does the Elise GT1 still race in? It's got to be run privatley and I would guess the series is more low key because the car was 1- crap, 2- it's old for a race car, 1997 was when it ran.

Yes and no. They had such big plans with the M250, but they bombed out after the first few orders. Now there is speculation that the Esprit will return, with either 3 probabilities: the Esprit will be based on the M250, the Esprit will return AS the M250, the M250 (worked out differently, making things correct where last time they were wrong) with the M250 badge. All of which, under he rumor mill over at EVO Towers are super-duper for Lotus. They are currently concentrating on the next US Elise (they broke a couple fed. laws this time around) to make it pass everything. I bet you that in their design studios, the team (hopefully) led by Steve Crijins is still tossing around ideas and sketches for the future of Lotus.

As for the GT1: a team by the name of Team Elite Lotus. They are currently running in the ALMS. Which is definately not low-key.

Le voici: http://www.americanlemans.com/gallery/2004/sebring_thursday/09_lg.jpg

Sooooooooo looooooooow
 
Originally posted by ///M-Spec
The I30/I35 is not a bad car. But the G is so much better all around, I can't imagine why anyone would choose the I over the G.

I30 and I35 are different! Don't lump them together! The potency of the I35's engine is one of the main reasons it's best in the 'relaxed luxury' end of the premium sedan game.

The reason people choose the I35 over the G35 or M45 and the ES330 over the IS300 or GS is typically their own age.
 
Originally posted by T13R
I used to think the same as you for this.

Don't argue with me about the RX-8. It's an argument I've lost several times, but I cling to it hoping someone, somewhere will find a decent point somewhere in it. You're better off nailing your face to a wall.
 
Now, I'll have to be honest. As a car guy, I think the RX-8 is not really, well I think I'll quote from Gran Turismo 3 or somewhere. Anyhow, the quote is that the RX-8 "is not an RX-7 evolution." Or for that matter, "the RSX is not an Acura Integra" (even though it is the Honda Integra in Japan). Of course, I already know that the Saleen S7 is DEFINITELY not the new Mustang. Of course, if it did, Ford fans will have to go to Chevy or Dodge.

At the Houston Auto Show, I did see a new-model Toyota Echo. And to be honest, it looks a little better than its past generation. It's still ugly to me, though. When I seen the newer Legacy sedan versus the other, it looks more stylish, but less aggressive. Subaru may have its sleeper in their 4WD lineup. What the hell has happened to Chevrolet? I think all of their cars' looks have downgraded from slightly to really bad. Same goes for their trucks. An American revolution? More like a revolution in less-attractive autos. Of course, it's not always about looks, but come on. You want to have a car that can perform well on the street, it has to look like it as well. I think the deep grills on most of the cars kill them pretty bad. My brother dislikes the Avalanche, and both of us dislike the Colorado. The Silverado looks pretty bad at the front, but still gets the job done in towing and payload capacity.

If it is one market that's getting better, it's the trucks, especially Japanese trucks. If the FTX concept shows us the next Tundra, I'll be skeptical about its looks. But the Nissan Titan and Toyota Tundra are both mean-looking trucks. Mean and stylish. So, Japan is stepping up at long last. I think the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VIII sedan is cool, but the wagon... I'll pass. Anyhow, more from the creator of this thread on this topic. Any more "this car killed this namesake," or "this car killed the last car (in a good way)?"
 
More support for the Elise S1/S2 conflict. Here is wht AutoWeek had to say about the Elise 111R (the one we get in the US) against, yes, read it again, the Ferrari 360 Modena Challenge Stratdale (sp?)

But there's something about the Lotus's steering. Something about the way it requires so little effort yet says so much, the way it melds precision with purity feels unmatched by any other road car. The latest Elise is reflexive, instinctively correct in its actions. It seems to have no inertia, no blurring of intention. You don't have to read the car, it reads you. You wear it - mentally, physically. Everything it does is beautifully resolved. There's the immediacy of the controls, the sensational ride - so firm yet unerringly supple - the way it feels so light and so closely coupled to the road.

What you get is the perfect conversion of power into motion. Pure, unsullied, sensational. And the plain fact is that the Ferrari isn't that good. It corners harder, but with less communication, less involvment and less fluidity. As the fight nears its end, this isn't a superficial flesh wound, it's a badly broken jaw.

However, there are areas in which the car from Maranello crushes the Hethel upstart so obviously and completely, it's stretching things to call it a contest: styling, presence, ease of ingress, interior ambience, engine size/power/sound/apperence and - harder to define, this, but no less real - an aura that makes your skin prickle as you walk up to it.

But the fact is, remove the straight-line grun from the equation, and the Elise 111R is a more rewarding steer than the Ferrari. Savour the moment. Cars that change your life view don't come along every day.


Unless you're buying a performance car for "styling, presence, ease of ingress, interior ambience" then this is definately a badly broken jaw at Modena.
 
At the Houston Auto Show, I did see a new-model Toyota Echo. And to be honest, it looks a little better than its past generation. It's still ugly to me, though. When I seen the newer Legacy sedan versus the other, it looks more stylish, but less aggressive. Subaru may have its sleeper in their 4WD lineup. What the hell has happened to Chevrolet? I think all of their cars' looks have downgraded from slightly to really bad. Same goes for their trucks. An American revolution? More like a revolution in less-attractive autos. Of course, it's not always about looks, but come on. You want to have a car that can perform well on the street, it has to look like it as well.

Why? The Toyota Echo is the best compact/small sedan on the market. It's better than the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Dodge Neon, Ford Focus, Saturn Ion, etc. Why the hell does it matter how it looks? The features considered most important to small car buyers are (not in order) antilock braking availability, side airbag availability, power windows, fuel economy, trunk space, rear leg room, horsepower, CD player, and sunroof. Not looks - not even in the top ten. People making car decisions based on looks aren't just stupid, they're probably making the wrong decision. The Pontiac Aztek is the second-best midsize SUV, but it's so ugly that nobody's willing to give it a shot. It's stupidity to the point of being dangerous.
 
Originally posted by JohnBM01
When I seen the newer Legacy sedan versus the other, it looks more stylish, but less aggressive. Subaru may have its sleeper in their 4WD lineup.

This would have to go close to the best styling revision of the year - they've been out for about 6 months here now, and Subaru are selling every single one they can get their hands on.

It astonishes me that the Liberty/Legacy looks completely different to the old car - until you park it next to one, when you realise it is actually a lot more evolutionary than you realise.

They've just managed a 5 star NCAP (crashworthiness) test rating without the optional side and curtain airbags - with them, the Legacy/Liberty/Outback attained the highest NCAP score ever - and it's 30kg lighter than the old model.

There'll be one replacing our 2001 model in the driveway later in the year...
 
Originally posted by vat_man
This would have to go close to the best styling revision of the year - they've been out for about 6 months here now, and Subaru are selling every single one they can get their hands on.

Is there a 6-cylinder with a manual? Do you get any high-performance versions?

Like everyone else in America, I still can't get excited about buying a new Legacy, but there's nothing I like more than the replacement for the 2001 Car of the Year, the Subaru Outback - I'd still say it's among the five best cars for sale, and it's five years old!
 
TOPIC UPDATE:

I had a chance to look online for the S16 Silvia (unofficial name). Before my S.O.B. of a computer crashed, I found it hard to imagine. A FWD Nissan with 276 hps. To be honest, I first thought it was a Mitsubishi, a modified Renault Laguna, or a... I don't know. I don't think the car is that bad at the front. Maybe I'll do some more reading about the S16. Silvia owners may be p*ssed if this turns out to be a machine to kill the Silvia. But even if it is to be, the S15 is still the ultimate sleeper car no matter what any hot rodder thinks.
 
there is a S16 silvia pic getting around but it is fake, nissan have not stated anywhere that they will be producing a S16, and if they did i would highly doubt it would be FWD
 
Originally posted by JohnBM01


But the Nissan Titan and Toyota Tundra are both mean-looking trucks. Mean and stylish.

I dont really think the toyota is all that mean looking. the new dodge ram looks really nice though.

This is a bad as$ truck, killed by the new generation.:D
 
Originally posted by M5Power
Is there a 6-cylinder with a manual? Do you get any high-performance versions?

Like everyone else in America, I still can't get excited about buying a new Legacy, but there's nothing I like more than the replacement for the 2001 Car of the Year, the Subaru Outback - I'd still say it's among the five best cars for sale, and it's five years old!

Yeah - we get the 2.0 litre turbo, in 5 speed auto only form, in both wagon and sedan, rated at 180kw.

We only get the 3.0 H6 in the Outback, again in 5 speed auto form only.

There is a 3.0R version available in Japan running a 6 speed manual. I have told a number of Subaru dealers that the day after they announce it's coming to Australia I will be there to place an order. I understaned it's been announced that New Zealand will get the 3.0R in both wagon, sedan, auto and manual form later in the year.

My partner wants the 3.0 litre six too, so here's hoping...
 
Originally posted by vat_man

We only get the 3.0 H6 in the Outback, again in 5 speed auto form only.

There is a 3.0R version available in Japan running a 6 speed manual. I have told a number of Subaru dealers that the day after they announce it's coming to Australia I will be there to place an order.

Is it still 210bhp or have they given it a bit of extra power? My 3-liter Outback sedan was the slowest 6-cylinder midsize sedan one can buy - and one of the most expensive. :(
 
The New Legacy is obviously a vast improvment over the old one.
 
Originally posted by ZEE
The New Legacy is obviously a vast improvment over the old one.

I'm not sure - the new Forester, which is a similar aesthetic advancement as the new Legacy is clearly not a vast improvement over the old one and the new Impreza is only a vast improvement because the previous one went for seven years before a redesign. Subaru doesn't do 'vast improvements' very often or very well - we'll see when pricing is set (in the US anyway) how much of an improvement this really is.
 
Originally posted by M5Power
Is it still 210bhp or have they given it a bit of extra power? My 3-liter Outback sedan was the slowest 6-cylinder midsize sedan one can buy - and one of the most expensive. :(

It's rated at 240 - I think the new 5 speed auto will help it.

It's a good improvement, but having the just superseded one I must say it was a very fine car. Subaru have fixed the main issues - the 2.5 now has competitive power for the 4 cylinder market (well, against everything except the Accord Euro), the brakes are much better, and the fuel consumption's now close to the front of the class.

It's interesting they're perceived as expensive in the US. I just wonder if GM's influence means that they're trying to push Subaru upmarket, to leave enough room for GM products underneath. They're right in the market here - the 2.5i Safety pack is pretty well specced against the relevant Accord Euro and Mazda 6 - and seen as good value for money. Maybe Subaru aren't that interested in the US market?
 
Originally posted by vat_man
Maybe Subaru aren't that interested in the US market?

As far as I know, Subaru produces the best-selling non-SUV all- or four-wheel-drive vehicle in North America, with the Outback - and the Forester and WRX have huge presences in their market (the 'don't buy without looking at one first' presence). But with the exception of the last-generation Legacy 2.5GT, the Legacy has never been a decent alternative to anything on the market (even then, only magazines and me liked the Legacy GT - no-one actually bought one) - maybe Subaru's banking all their sales on Outback, a decent bet.

Or maybe they know they'll never take down Camry, Accord, Malibu, Altima, and Galant with their current reputation, which, though is improving slightly, isn't a reputation geared toward midsize sedans (I'd love a statistic on how many Camry buyers also own a Forester, though - I'd bet it's the best of the Camry plus any other compact SUV).

I'm not sure how much influence you think GM has over Subaru, but I see absolutely none yet in this market. No-one, including GM, sees the Legacy as a threat yet. In fact, I've never seen a road test or even a comparison between the Legacy and GM's midsize shining star, the Chevrolet Malibu.
 
Give it some time and some exposure, and it might...

To me, it is going to be a sleeper machine.
 
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