Nissan Leaf - Car of the year 2011

[Wolfe]

Admittedly not all Leaf buyers will be so eager as the ones who put down their deposits first, but most people I've come across who've ordered one are the sort of people who're likely to eke as many miles as possible from a "tank" of electricity. Whether more casual buyers in a few years time will be the same or not is open to debate, though given that we'll still have regular internal combustion vehicles for many decades to come I suspect that EV buyers really will be the ones who want to drive economically.

I still think a full EV will be less about the "image" and more about totally removing fossil fuels from your driving.

Alright, I can see that. 👍 I suppose it could take a while before we see those "casual buyers" getting themselves into trouble.

I do know a lot of people though who'd virtually never get close to exhausting a battery, and in the U.K. at least it's entirely feasible to never do more than 100 miles in a day for months and months at a time.

The deciding factor could be taking a moment to actually plug it in every time. Depending on the layout of a given garage, this could be a minor inconvenience or an easily forgettable chore. Remember that a Leaf owner might have to carry groceries inside while three kids scream up and down the garage/house and whine about being hungry. They might even think, "oh, I'll plug it in later," and then forget until they try to start it the next morning while rushing off to work at the last minute.

But EV enthusiasts and hypermilers will certainly plug it in every chance they get.

As far as the "city car" tag goes, I'd got the impression that a Smart is actually too small for most U.S. cities since U.S. cities tend to be vastly more spacious than European ones. In this scenario, I reckon a Leaf, with five seats, a decent boot and a comfy ride, would actually be pretty much the perfect city car when space isn't at as much of a premium.

You're right, we don't really need a car as small as the ForTwo. Like the Prius, the Smart is often bought to make a statement; I generally only see them on the more-affluent west side of my city. Especially with a car as mediocre as the ForTwo, people in this country seem to buy Smarts because of its identity as a city car, rather than the utility of its small size (which only really manifests itself in boasts like, "hey check out the huge unused space I left in this parallel parking spot on this wide-open street with several other parking options available! I love my Smart!").

The Leaf, meanwhile, looks like a normal car but can only function well as a city car. So while someone may buy a Smart because it's a "city car" and then use it everywhere, that same person may buy a Leaf because it's a "normal eco car" and also try to use it everywhere. The Smart is a "city car" because it's small and that was what was intended by Mercedes-Benz when they made it. The Leaf is a "city car" because that's just what it is. That was what I was getting at in the last post.

Range always varies In an Autocar test I have of the Tesla, their "track thrash" range, where they spend a day figuring the car, was about 120 miles (unhelpfully the test on their website has "no data" for all their economy tests, when in the magazine there's a host of data) and they managed over 200 in mixed driving as far as I can remember. If you're interested, I'll dig out the mag (it's around somewhere) and give you all the stats.

One number I remembered was 80 miles, but that might have just been the Jeremy Clarkson test. Those numbers could help us estimate the usability of the Leaf in differing conditions, so feel free to share. 👍

Having just graduated from a journalism degree myself, good luck to you 👍 We may even work for the same mag one day, given that I intend to move to the U.S. at some point!

I believe it to be a game-changer in so much as it's a genuinely capable car that also happens to be electric. Like the Tesla, it's out there banishing ideas of golf carts, G-Wiz nasties and other neighborhood EVs that are responsible for much of the image problems suffered by electric cars. That it's even fairly affordable (top-end Prius money isn't bad for a full EV) is even better.

Thanks. I admit I clicked the link in your signature and am really considering that publisher you write for (HighGear Media). I don't want to move from Wisconsin, which limits my paper mag options, so I've been leaning towards online writing instead. My plan was to start my own blog and work hard to make it stand out from the millions of others (doing more than just regurgitating press releases, for one thing), but that's a little more idealistic than realistic. On that note, however, it'd be great to have someone to work with on such a project. Perhaps we could work something out.

When I read the Road & Track review of the Leaf, I was impressed with how "normal" its specs and performance figures were...but that impression was also tempered by the fact that "normal" specs and performance figures are impressive with an EV. I doubt Nissan is done with their project at this point, though, so I'd like to see what they do next with EVs, or an upgraded version of the Leaf. 👍

 

[blaaah]

In the UK if you can afford the disposable income for a £25k electric car, then I'd expect you're also fairly likely to have your own place with a garage too.

Which highlights the reason why the Leaf will fail as a popular car or one for the general motoring public to consider as viable cost effective car. It's only for rich people in a house with a garage or a driveway. Most villages, towns and cities in the UK are populated by people that don't have either, as the actual buildings/residences don't have them, even if the car was affordable it's not practical.

 

[E28]

The leaf is £25k, but you can buy a BMW 320ED for that, which has fairly good economy and can be considered an 'all-round Eco car'. So would people go for an efficient, practical Beemer or a mega-efficient, limited to short journeys Leaf.

And Co2 isn't necessarily the problem. The disappearing forests are. And why are they disappearing? People.

 

[blaaah]

The leaf is £25k, but you can buy a BMW 320ED for that, which has fairly good economy and can be considered an 'all-round Eco car'. So would people go for an efficient, practical Beemer or a mega-efficient, limited to short journeys Leaf.

And Co2 isn't necessarily the problem. The disappearing forests are. And why are they disappearing? People.

Diesels are killing the planet they are not suitable cars for people who care about the environment.
I agree there are too many people on the planet, we need to use the resources we have to start getting bases on the Moon and Mars as soon as possible.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

Diesels are killing the planet they are not suitable cars for people who care about the environment.
I agree there are too many people on the planet, we need to use the resources we have to start getting bases on the Moon and Mars as soon as possible.

Well there's a dumb statement.

Perhaps you read "The Population Bomb" and regard it as Canon Law. In case you didn't follow up, the author is a dimwit and a fraud. There was a bet that took place a while ago to prove his 'theory' and he lost...badly.

Overpopulation is a myth...like Sasquatch. However, some people refuse to stop believing.

Trees are disappearing? Not really. The United States is a pretty big place, no? It's less than 10% developed. Let that sink in a bit.

 

[blaaah]

Well there's a dumb statement.

Perhaps you read "The Population Bomb" and regard it as Canon Law. In case you didn't follow up, the author is a dimwit and a fraud. There was a bet that took place a while ago to prove his 'theory' and he lost...badly.

Overpopulation is a myth...like Sasquatch. However, some people refuse to stop believing.

Trees are disappearing? Not really. The United States is a pretty big place, no? It's less than 10% developed. Let that sink in a bit.

What do you mean overpopulation is a myth? You think 10% is low development, i think a better development figure would be under 1%. The pure numbers of people on this planet are effecting it in a negative way.

 

[homeforsummer]

The deciding factor could be taking a moment to actually plug it in every time. Depending on the layout of a given garage, this could be a minor inconvenience or an easily forgettable chore. Remember that a Leaf owner might have to carry groceries inside while three kids scream up and down the garage/house and whine about being hungry. They might even think, "oh, I'll plug it in later," and then forget until they try to start it the next morning while rushing off to work at the last minute.

But EV enthusiasts and hypermilers will certainly plug it in every chance they get.

I agree. There are external factors that may result in you either forgetting to charge, or failing to charge your EV. In one of his recent youtube videos, UK actor/presenter Robert Llewellyn remarked that he came to his loaned Mitsubishi i-MiEV to find it only had about 10% charge one morning. The reason: His teenage son had unplugged it for a laugh...

You're right, we don't really need a car as small as the ForTwo. Like the Prius, the Smart is often bought to make a statement; I generally only see them on the more-affluent west side of my city. Especially with a car as mediocre as the ForTwo, people in this country seem to buy Smarts because of its identity as a city car, rather than the utility of its small size (which only really manifests itself in boasts like, "hey check out the huge unused space I left in this parallel parking spot on this wide-open street with several other parking options available! I love my Smart!").

There seems to be less of this in the UK, as you might expect. The smart doesn't seem to have the same pretence of being an "eco car" over here, so people choose them more for their size, low running costs, or simply because they like them! And I've actually seen them parked nose-in to the kerb here in very tight spaces just like smart crowed on about when the car was launched!

The Leaf, meanwhile, looks like a normal car but can only function well as a city car. So while someone may buy a Smart because it's a "city car" and then use it everywhere, that same person may buy a Leaf because it's a "normal eco car" and also try to use it everywhere. The Smart is a "city car" because it's small and that was what was intended by Mercedes-Benz when they made it. The Leaf is a "city car" because that's just what it is. That was what I was getting at in the last post.

Understood, and I don't disagree, though I still expect Leaf buyers will be smarter than to assume it can be used in the same way as a gasoline car with two or three times the range.

One number I remembered was 80 miles, but that might have just been the Jeremy Clarkson test. Those numbers could help us estimate the usability of the Leaf in differing conditions, so feel free to share. 👍

Yup, I seem to remember the 80 mile figure was TG's test, and I recall reading that even then they didn't actually run out of power and still had around 50 miles left! Suspect it was the typical Top Gear thing of using artistic effect I'll dig out the Tesla figures when I get a chance.

Thanks. I admit I clicked the link in your signature and am really considering that publisher you write for (HighGear Media).

I'd definitely recommend writing for them 👍 Will fire you a PM when I'm done with this post

When I read the Road & Track review of the Leaf, I was impressed with how "normal" its specs and performance figures were...but that impression was also tempered by the fact that "normal" specs and performance figures are impressive with an EV. I doubt Nissan is done with their project at this point, though, so I'd like to see what they do next with EVs, or an upgraded version of the Leaf. 👍

Me too. I seem to remember writing something about a facelift of the Leaf due in 2014/2015 ish, so we're sure to see some improvements by then.

Which highlights the reason why the Leaf will fail as a popular car or one for the general motoring public to consider as viable cost effective car. It's only for rich people in a house with a garage or a driveway. Most villages, towns and cities in the UK are populated by people that don't have either, as the actual buildings/residences don't have them, even if the car was affordable it's not practical.

I don't see what you're getting at. In the UK a hundred mile range gets you quite a distance. Quite easily between some of the major cities - Brum and London, Leeds and Manchester etc - and even then, not many people do those sort of journeys regularly. I live in the North East, and you'd really, really struggle to do 100 miles in a day driving around here. You could get a good few trips between Newcastle and Middlesbrough with that sort of range, so they're entirely suitable for many people.

As far as disposable income goes, the Leaf isn't being aimed at people with low budgets, obviously, but then how many people on low budgets can afford to live in the centre of a city? The car wouldn't be suitable for them on any level. On the other hand, a great many people work in the city and live in the suburbs, and for them an electric car would be a great idea. Especially if they live in London where they wouldn't have to pay £8 a day for congestion charging. And there is nowhere in Greater London you'd drive more than even 40 or 50 miles to get to from any other part of London.

The leaf is £25k, but you can buy a BMW 320ED for that, which has fairly good economy and can be considered an 'all-round Eco car'. So would people go for an efficient, practical Beemer or a mega-efficient, limited to short journeys Leaf.

I understand your point. At the moment, if I had the money, I myself would go for the BMW as it's a brilliant car. Wouldn't get you free road tax and free congestion charging though, and filling up is still more expensive than recharging, so the Leaf would still work out thousands cheaper every year.

And Co2 isn't necessarily the problem. The disappearing forests are. And why are they disappearing? People.

Correct, but not entirely relevant to the discussion

 

[blaaah]

filling up is still more expensive than recharging, so the Leaf would still work out thousands cheaper every year.



Correct, but not entirely relevant to the discussion

I read that the average fuel cost per year for the average person is about £800.
Even if electricity was free the average saving would be less than a thousand pounds.

 

[Peterram430]

I read that the average fuel cost per year for the average person is about £800.
Even if electricity was free the average saving would be less than a thousand pounds.

Based on a BMW 320d with a mpg of 42.5, and today's average UK diesel price of 129.30p with an average milage of 12000 per year the annual fuel costs will be £1657.47.

 

[blaaah]

Based on a BMW 320d with a mpg of 42.5, and today's average UK diesel price of 129.30p with an average milage of 12000 per year the annual fuel costs will be £1657.47.

Average mileage is also from 8000miles a year.
A VW Golf Diesel is 62mpg.
VW Golf is a far more premium segment than a Nissan. Also it's deal price is from under £15k and the Leaf is nearly £10k more expensive.
The Leaf won't be attractive in my opinion.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

...and filling up is still more expensive than recharging, so the Leaf would still work out thousands cheaper every year.

It is...until it isn't.

The funny thing is people in the UK pay about as much for gasoline/petrol as we do in America. The taxes/duties/VAT that's added to the price of UK fuel, there's the difference. (google "purchase power parity")

So while filling up your tank is pricey, it's the taxes that's killing you and not the oil companies. And the UK's taxes on fuel are just going to go up and up and up.

The same thing will happen with electricity once CO2 and energy production is demonized enough.

And then what will you do? This isn't about 'saving the planet' (that's actually quite simple to do), this seems to be something much different. You cannot control the economy without controlling the people and you cannot control the people without some form of coercion, in this case; onerous taxation. If you look at the rundown of why UK fuel (or anything else really) is so pricey, it's sickening.

Ya, you guys have bad food and a rep for bad teeth...but the tax burden you guys carry is what really makes me feel sorry for you.

 

[Joey D]

The Leaf is a car I love and hate at the same time. I like that it's an electric car that functions like a car and looks like Versa that has actually been styled, instead of an ugly box like electrics of the past. I like the range on it since most people commute far less then that to and from work. I like that it's affordable too, or at least somewhat affordable all things considered.

However, it's a Nissan, which I loathe, so I can't get all that excited about it. If it was made by Honda I'd probably be a whole lot more receptive to it. But then again Honda has the FCX which I like very much so I can see why they didn't push to bring an all electric to market. I also dislike that if you ever want to go on a trip you would need another car. I can think of several instances where I would easily drive over 80 miles in a given day making it a bit annoying to own a car with a limited range like that.

I still like the Volt, you can run on the electric motors while going to and from work but if you need to go further you can without worry. The Volt makes more sense to those of us who live in suburbia, which a huge chunk of the American population does.

I like that auto makers are starting to think more eco-friendly though and I'm sure over the next few years a war will heat up between them to find the next revolution in what powers our cars.

 

[homeforsummer]

Average mileage is also from 8000miles a year.
A VW Golf Diesel is 62mpg.
VW Golf is a far more premium segment than a Nissan. Also it's deal price is from under £15k and the Leaf is nearly £10k more expensive.
The Leaf won't be attractive in my opinion.

Based on a BMW 320d with a mpg of 42.5, and today's average UK diesel price of 129.30p with an average milage of 12000 per year the annual fuel costs will be £1657.47.

This.

Then ask yourself how many people get anywhere near a manufacturer's claimed economy figures...

I also mentioned London congestion charge. Let's say you conservatively drive into London for work 200 days per year. The congestion charge has this year gone up to £10/day for cars, so you already save £2,000 by having a car that's exempt.

And parking is free for EVs in London too. I'm lucky enough to have only parked in central London once, because it cost me a fortune. Now do that every day.

As for which product is most "premium" between the Leaf and a Golf, I'd advise sitting in both before forming an opinion. The Golf is high quality yes, but so is the Leaf. Only the Leaf isn't as dark and depressing as sitting in a Chilean mine.

The funny thing is people in the UK pay about as much for gasoline/petrol as we do in America. The taxes/duties/VAT that's added to the price of UK fuel, there's the difference. (google "purchase power parity")

So while filling up your tank is pricey, it's the taxes that's killing you and not the oil companies. And the UK's taxes on fuel are just going to go up and up and up.

True. We're taxed heavily, and the more miles you do the harder it hits you.

The same thing will happen with electricity once CO2 and energy production is demonized enough.

True, but in my lifetime I can't realistically see a time when electricity costs even a quarter of what fossil fuels do.

And then what will you do? This isn't about 'saving the planet' (that's actually quite simple to do), this seems to be something much different. You cannot control the economy without controlling the people and you cannot control the people without some form of coercion, in this case; onerous taxation. If you look at the rundown of why UK fuel (or anything else really) is so pricey, it's sickening.

Ya, you guys have bad food and a rep for bad teeth...but the tax burden you guys carry is what really makes me feel sorry for you.

Yup. We get royally shafted through taxation, and as Famine is always happy to point out, our road tax is based on CO2 emissions, which are directly related to fuel consumption. Which is a con in so many ways it isn't funny. First, it means we get taxed for fuel twice. Second, it's a completely unfair taxation, since it doesn't take into account how you drive and how often you drive (so a cheaply-taxed Prius driver could thrash the car until it's doing 20mpg for 20,000 miles a year and still pay no more for fuel-consumption based road tax than someone doing 60mpg over 6,000 miles a year - he'd only get stung on the actual fuel itself, which at least is a fair method of taxing people - directly proportional to usage).

If I'm being brutally honest, none of the above really matters to me since I don't intend to stay in the UK.

What I will say though is that it will always be much more expensive to run a fossil-fuelled vehicle than it will an electric one, and it will only get worse.

However, it's a Nissan, which I loathe, so I can't get all that excited about it. If it was made by Honda I'd probably be a whole lot more receptive to it. But then again Honda has the FCX which I like very much so I can see why they didn't push to bring an all electric to market.

You might be interested to note that Honda are back-tracking on their original claim that an all-electric vehicle isn't adequate, and they're planning on bringing an electric Fit to market by 2012.

As for the FCX, I've mentioned in other threads why hydrogen isn't a very good option, so I won't bleat about it here

I also dislike that if you ever want to go on a trip you would need another car. I can think of several instances where I would easily drive over 80 miles in a given day making it a bit annoying to own a car with a limited range like that.

To be fair, you do higher than average miles, so an EV really wouldn't be suitable for you. For people who travel such distances much less frequently, many may find that the cost of hiring a car on the three or four occasions over a year would be more than paid for in fuel savings.

I still like the Volt, you can run on the electric motors while going to and from work but if you need to go further you can without worry. The Volt makes more sense to those of us who live in suburbia, which a huge chunk of the American population does.

I agree.

You should see the sort of comments people make on the site I write for though. We get accused of pushing the Volt from some people for whom EVs are the only answer and no compromise is welcome, and other people accuse us of not featuring the Volt enough, or somehow being biased against it for some reason.

They're all wrong.

 

[pk_090]

THIS IS WRONG IT IS A CAR IT SHOULD BURN LEAVES!

on a serious note i am a citroen u.k technician and i dont know if you guys know or not that citroen too are producing a zero emission electric car called the C-Zero (ironically.) We had some details though on this car. We have been told it will cos roughly around £18,000 (when compared to citroen's C1 ((3 cylinder 1 litre engine capable of 80+mpg but yet avalible with alloy wheels air con etc) for near enough 7K)) i think it is stupid. I also heard somewhere that its range would be three hours so lets say this thing can hit 60mph (i doubt it somewhat) then thats a range of 180 miles. Now lets be realistic and say that it can only do 30Mph sounds more realistic but still to me i think thats a silly number too then that is 90miles, not taking into account traffic, stops driving slower etc.

The best bit is yet to come...If lets say one of or all of the batteries breaks, fails etc then a new set costs £30,000....and to rub salt into the wounds even more they remain property of citroen so basically your renting the batteries.

even more so i think these will be dangerous and im not being funny but if they do take off there must be some changes to the law, can you imagine how dangerous it would be to be doing 30mph on the inside lane of a motorway in one of these plastic boxes, forcing lorrys doing double your speed into the next lane to over take...and then this forces all the things that would be in the second lane into the outside lane which then becomes packed... recipe for disaster..

 

[AlexGTV]

^That is a serious issue and I don't think it can be sorted out by laws forbidding these low powered cars from highways, nobody is going to buy them; and you never know if you'll need one for only city ride, there can be neccessities, emergencies etc. So the only solution is to bring the power up so that the car can do at least 50-60 mph.

One other important issue not many have considered is that of how quite those cars are.
How many times have we hurried to cross the road only for the last moment to hear a car quickly approaching and step back? The situation is even worse for blind people. Until electric cars become prevalent enough we must be careful for the odd one on the road and use our vision when crossing the road more than our hearing.
I suppose car companies surely must have taken notice and prepared some (sonic) solutions.

 

[homeforsummer]

on a serious note i am a citroen u.k technician and i dont know if you guys know or not that citroen too are producing a zero emission electric car called the C-Zero (ironically.) We had some details though on this car. We have been told it will cos roughly around £18,000 (when compared to citroen's C1 ((3 cylinder 1 litre engine capable of 80+mpg but yet avalible with alloy wheels air con etc) for near enough 7K)) i think it is stupid. I also heard somewhere that its range would be three hours so lets say this thing can hit 60mph (i doubt it somewhat) then thats a range of 180 miles. Now lets be realistic and say that it can only do 30Mph sounds more realistic but still to me i think thats a silly number too then that is 90miles, not taking into account traffic, stops driving slower etc.

The best bit is yet to come...If lets say one of or all of the batteries breaks, fails etc then a new set costs £30,000....and to rub salt into the wounds even more they remain property of citroen so basically your renting the batteries.

even more so i think these will be dangerous and im not being funny but if they do take off there must be some changes to the law, can you imagine how dangerous it would be to be doing 30mph on the inside lane of a motorway in one of these plastic boxes, forcing lorrys doing double your speed into the next lane to over take...and then this forces all the things that would be in the second lane into the outside lane which then becomes packed... recipe for disaster..

If you're genuinely a Citroen technician then remind me not to buy a Citroen any time soon...

Firstly, Citroen aren't "developing" the C-Zero. They're sticking a Citroen badge on the Front of a Mitsubishi i-MiEV, just like the C-Crosser is a re-badged Mitsubishi Outlander. All the C-Zero's development work has already been done by Mitsubishi over several years.

Since we now know it's a Mitsubishi and that it's out there undergoing tests already (and that a couple of dozen people have been running around in them as part of a UK trial for the past year) we also know a fair bit of data about it. Firstly, it can hit 60mph - top speed is around 80mph.

Secondly, it can't do 180 miles on a charge and Mitsubishi have never claimed that it can. Quoted range is around half that and it can realistically get between 60-100 miles on a charge depending on driving conditions. Since most people on the trial were using them around London, the range hasn't been an issue. Ex-Red Dwarf actor Robert Llewellyn has been trialling one and has put several videos on Youtube about the car - search "Fully Charged" - and came away very impressed.

It amused me that you said range doesn't take into account "traffic, stops driving slower etc". It's a little worrying that a technician isn't aware that an electric motor will use less power the less it spins - in contrast to petrol and diesel cars, an EV's range improves in slow city traffic. Smart quote an 80 mile range for their electric Fortwo, but admit it can do as many as 130 miles in city traffic. Expect the Mitsubishi/Citroen (and the Peugeot-badged version, the "Li-On") to be similar.

Not only that, but you've entirely fabricated this scenario of them travelling 30mph on the motorways in your mind. They're entirely highway-capable, even if it's in an owner's best interests not to use them on longer journeys.

Finally, the battery pack isn't even close to being £30k. It's significantly less than half that, and reports of batteries dying after five years is rubbish anyway.

And you even mention yourself that you don't buy the C-Zero, you lease it from Citroen. So if the battery does die, it's Citroen's responsibility to replace it throughout the lease agreement.

^That is a serious issue and I don't think it can be sorted out by laws forbidding these low powered cars from highways, nobody is going to buy them; and you never know if you'll need one for only city ride, there can be neccessities, emergencies etc. So the only solution is to bring the power up so that the car can do at least 50-60 mph.

The only serious issue is that you believed and of what he just wrote...

One other important issue not many have considered is that of how quite those cars are.
How many times have we hurried to cross the road only for the last moment to hear a car quickly approaching and step back? The situation is even worse for blind people. Until electric cars become prevalent enough we must be careful for the odd one on the road and use our vision when crossing the road more than our hearing.
I suppose car companies surely must have taken notice and prepared some (sonic) solutions.

There are already steps to mediate the "noise problem".

All new EVs will be fitted with speakers emitting an unobtrusive sound to alert pedestrians to their presence. The sound is quiet enough to not be heard inside the car, but loud enough to be heard outside.

It's worth also mentioning that for most modern cars, smaller ones at least, the loudest noise they generate is from their tyres. At idle modern petrol cars are nearly silent anyway. Since EVs still produce tyre noise, you can still hear them moving about. Whilst I think it's a good thing taking precautions, the noise issue of hybrids and EVs is blown out of proportion.

 

[Joey D]

You might be interested to note that Honda are back-tracking on their original claim that an all-electric vehicle isn't adequate, and they're planning on bringing an electric Fit to market by 2012.

Hmmm, didn't know that. That might require some investigation on my part.

To be fair, you do higher than average miles, so an EV really wouldn't be suitable for you. For people who travel such distances much less frequently, many may find that the cost of hiring a car on the three or four occasions over a year would be more than paid for in fuel savings.

I do, yes, at 20,000+ miles per year I drive about twice what the average American does, but even then most Americans still drive about 12,000 miles per year. It's going to be a hard sell to get these people to buy a fully electric car with a range of "only" 100 miles...even though 12,000 miles works out to be about 39 miles per day. It's the mentality of the consumer in America, we don't care how much we do use it, we just want whatever we buy to have it all and then some.

Plus you have the great American adventure known as the road trip, and this is becoming more and more popular with all the TSA agents looking for a cheap thrill and airfare going through the freaking moon.

Even though an electric car with a 100 mile range would work for a vast majority of the population I don't think you are going to get Americans at least to buy into it. Remember, a big group of our citizens still think they need to buy an F-350 with a 6" lift to drive to and from work or a Camaro with 600hp because they can't get up to speed on the highway any other way. I'm not saying all Americans are stupid, not by a long shot, but you have to remember Bill the American has a different mindset then someone from Europe.

Hell even at 20k miles a year I still only average 55 miles per day and I know for a fact I'm not even close to that most of the time. I'm probably a 40 mile round trip to work, all highway at that. I could easily manage an electric car, I just can't seem to get over the way I've been conditioned as a consumer.

I agree.

You should see the sort of comments people make on the site I write for though. We get accused of pushing the Volt from some people for whom EVs are the only answer and no compromise is welcome, and other people accuse us of not featuring the Volt enough, or somehow being biased against it for some reason.

They're all wrong.

I have a hard time hating the Volt even though I don't think highly of GM, it's got very forward thinking technology and I think is the perfect fit to get American's thinking towards alternative fuels without actually forcing us to use them.

 

[crooky369]

It's not going to work in Europe, not many people have their own land let alone a garage to park their car in. Cars are left on the streets and even then it might be nowhere near your actual house. Even if you found or have a regular parking space outside your house you will not have a cable running over the pavement from car to house. Firstly people will trip over it and you will be taken to court. Secondly as soon as it's dark and people are walking home from the pub it will be vandalised.

Very good point. Even for the people who do own garages most it seems use them as sheds to put things in and also what happens when you have more than one car per household?

 

[pk_090]

ok thankyou for your response made an interesting read from the opposite end of the spectrum, i am a 20 year old male, who's hobbies include burning fossil fuels mainly petrol and diesel for fun wether it be in cars bikes or anything else that have wheels. I do believe that an alternative should be develpoed but personally speaking i dont think it lies with electric unfortunately.

"If you're genuinely a Citroen technician then remind me not to buy a Citroen any time soon..."

I am a genuine Citroen technician, and believe you me i wouldn't/dont recommend them to anybody.


"Firstly, Citroen aren't "developing" the C-Zero. They're sticking a Citroen badge on the Front of a Mitsubishi i-MiEV, just like the C-Crosser is a re-badged Mitsubishi Outlander. All the C-Zero's development work has already been done by Mitsubishi over several years."

Correct. This seems to be happening more and more these days with motor company's exchanging information and parts with each other. As yo may or not know, the Citroen C1 and 107's are toyota ayego's, as you correctly stated the C-Crosser is mitsubishi, Citroen are using increasingly more and more BMW engines (C4 picasso for example). This isnt just citroen doing this though. Despite this development still continues, Recalls are issued and investigated by citroen as are Info Rapide's and hopefully development will still continue untill a viable replacement to fossil fuels is found.

"Since we now know it's a Mitsubishi and that it's out there undergoing tests already (and that a couple of dozen people have been running around in them as part of a UK trial for the past year) we also know a fair bit of data about it. Firstly, it can hit 60mph - top speed is around 80mph.

Secondly, it can't do 180 miles on a charge and Mitsubishi have never claimed that it can. Quoted range is around half that and it can realistically get between 60-100 miles on a charge depending on driving conditions. Since most people on the trial were using them around London, the range hasn't been an issue. Ex-Red Dwarf actor Robert Llewellyn has been trialling one and has put several videos on Youtube about the car - search "Fully Charged" - and came away very impressed."

well you and me have been told differant things, still these things happen, i was told GT was going to be released at xmas 2009 and look what happened there.

"It amused me that you said range doesn't take into account "traffic, stops driving slower etc". It's a little worrying that a technician isn't aware that an electric motor will use less power the less it spins - in contrast to petrol and diesel cars, an EV's range improves in slow city traffic. Smart quote an 80 mile range for their electric Fortwo, but admit it can do as many as 130 miles in city traffic. Expect the Mitsubishi/Citroen (and the Peugeot-badged version, the "Li-On") to be similar."

I am aware that with anything the less movement something does the less energy it uses, For example if i stay on the sofa all day i use less energy than going out and running a half marathon, i was merely considering that fact its not just the motor that uses power, if its dark the driver needs lights, raining driver needs washers, cold the driver needs heat and visa versa. If i was stuck in a traffic jam in the centre of london with The heater, lights, windscreen wipers and the radio on how much this will drop the battery life down, my bet would be quite abit.

"Not only that, but you've entirely fabricated this scenario of them travelling 30mph on the motorways in your mind. They're entirely highway-capable, even if it's in an owner's best interests not to use them on longer journeys."

i was just going by the statistics i have been told with 30mph top speed.

"Finally, the battery pack isn't even close to being £30k. It's significantly less than half that, and reports of batteries dying after five years is rubbish anyway."

I can bring paperwork tomorrow unless the price has been changed. The paperwork i saw quoted 30k. We had the prices though from citroen, and this was the price for the batteries Without VAT and without fitting.

"And you even mention yourself that you don't buy the C-Zero, you lease it from Citroen. So if the battery does die, it's Citroen's responsibility to replace it throughout the lease agreement."

No, I said the C-zero is bought from citroen (price is around 18k i believe but dont quote me i dont wear a suit.) This comes complete as a full car im assuming you can drive it away from the showroom. Say for example the car goes out of warranty and the battery's die, they leak, get punctured etc you pay for the bill for the batteries(new ones) and citroen take the old ones back too. So even though you have paid the extortionate price for the new ones neither the old ones nor new ones remain yours, they are citroens. I dont know if this will be done on an exchange basis (give us back the old ones and get discount on the new ones i dont know.)

 

[homeforsummer]

I am aware that with anything the less movement something does the less energy it uses

Not strictly true, since a car sitting or crawling in traffic is still using energy, and doing so less efficiently than it would be if it was moving at say, 40-50mph. A car not moving with the engine running is doing zero miles to the gallon. An electric car not moving is using no energy...

i was merely considering that fact its not just the motor that uses power, if its dark the driver needs lights, raining driver needs washers, cold the driver needs heat and visa versa. If i was stuck in a traffic jam in the centre of london with The heater, lights, windscreen wipers and the radio on how much this will drop the battery life down, my bet would be quite abit.

...though as you point out, accessories do draw current.

In something like the Leaf (which let's not forget - this thread is about!) a solar panel mounted at the back of the car provides a trickle of energy for less strenuous energy use such as interior lighting and the stereo. It can only do so much obviously, but in most electric cars accessories have been designed to use as little energy as possible. The lights in the Leaf for example are all LED and/or low energy bulbs. I can't remember (or indeed find) the figures but I recall them drawing significantly less current than regular car lights.

You have to look at it in context too. You'd have to be using all those accessories for a hell of a long time before it takes any significant distance from your range, and since drivers are unlikely to be using them over long distances anyway, it's unlikely to prove too much of a problem for owners.

i was just going by the statistics i have been told with 30mph top speed.

I'd really have to question where you got those statistics though. It sounds more like the sort of thing you'd overhear from two people who know nothing about electric cars! Even the god-awful G-Wiz can do 50mph, so although it's not motorway suitable it's a hell of a lot better than 30mph...

Sure someone didn't confuse the C-Zero with Geoff from Top Gear?

I can bring paperwork tomorrow unless the price has been changed. The paperwork i saw quoted 30k. We had the prices though from citroen, and this was the price for the batteries Without VAT and without fitting.

I still don't believe this and I'd question how accurate that paperwork is. I'd highlight a passage written by one of my colleagues at AllCarsElectric in this article:

"The drop in battery costs will mean each battery pack for the i-Miev will cost under $11,100 per car, meaning the estimated sticker price for the 2013 i-Miev will be under $27,000 by 2012"

It's for the Mitsubishi obviously, but then it's the same car.

$11,100 is a lot of money (£7,100 at current exchange rates) but as I said - significantly less than that £30k figure.

Of course, you could question the validity of that figure, but how likely is it really that Citroen would set the price of a battery pack in an £18k car at £30k? It wouldn't be even slightly commercially viable. And I'm not too sure that Mitsubishi would be happy that Citroen were selling their battery packs for over three times the price...

No, I said the C-zero is bought from citroen (price is around 18k i believe but dont quote me i dont wear a suit.) This comes complete as a full car im assuming you can drive it away from the showroom. Say for example the car goes out of warranty and the battery's die, they leak, get punctured etc you pay for the bill for the batteries(new ones) and citroen take the old ones back too. So even though you have paid the extortionate price for the new ones neither the old ones nor new ones remain yours, they are citroens. I dont know if this will be done on an exchange basis (give us back the old ones and get discount on the new ones i dont know.)

Nobody can buy the C-Zero from Citroen, nor the Li-On from Peugeot. Both cars will be available through lease only.

And on lease, something as significant as the batteries will be covered under the lease cost (and you certainly wouldn't be charged for the replacement of something you don't own, especially at that cost). It's not dissimilar from what Renault will be doing with their EVs - you buy the car, and lease the batteries.

 

[YSSMAN]

It will be interesting to see how many companies show up with electric vehicles next week in Detroit. Aside from the known GM and Toyota projects, I'd be willing to bet that Hyundai/Kia and Honda debut some fancy new rides, and I'd be betting on an electric Ford Focus as well.

As these EVs become more and more like regular production cars, the more likely we are going to be seeing them in our driveways.

 

[homeforsummer]

You'd be right on the Focus: 2012 Ford Focus Electric Unveiled by CEO at CES

And here are a few others you'll see The "alpha" version of the Tesla Model S is probably most exciting, the interior should have a running prototype of the 17" touch screen center console and 3D instruments.

 

[YSSMAN]

I can't wait until they give out "POWERED BY NVIDIA" stickers for the Teslas and BMWs.