Nissan Leaf - Car of the year 2011

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It will be mass marketed starting 2012. Prices should drop.

Nope. Nissan would need to sell a million of them annually for the price to go down and for them to make a profit.
 
Nope. Nissan would need to sell a million of them annually for the price to go down and for them to make a profit.

Any source on that figure?
 
Any source on that figure?

It's in one of my auto mags. Might be the latest car and driver or autoweek.

No, scratch that. I was sitting at firestone last night and reading AUTOMOBILE from the last couple of months, the one with a 458 on the cover.

Yes, got it and I quote "Annual global Leaf sales needed to lower the sticker price and achieve a profit without government subsidies: 1 MILLION"
 
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Localised air quality improvement is probably one of the main selling points of EVs, incidentally. It's something that you can't really argue against.

And there's the rub.

Perfection is the enemy of good enough. At what point will any enviro or politician say something to the effect of "ok, our job is finished"? Never.

It never ends. Everything can just be a little 'cleaner' or a little 'greener' if you just do this, that, and the other. Where does it end? It doesn't and that's a big problem if you ask me as the goal posts are constantly being moved.
 
Localised air quality improvement is probably one of the main selling points of EVs, incidentally. It's something that you can't really argue against.
Air quality? Ever thought of bulldozing all the trees and flowers and plants? If you want air quality that's what needs to be done. Gasoline fumes don't make me sneeze.
 
Allergies and air pollution are not the same. Flowers, trees, and plants don't make me sneeze therefore whatever they do to you is your body's fault, not theirs.
 
How much does it help the environment though really? The factory that produces them is also zero emission?
 
And there's the rub.

Perfection is the enemy of good enough. At what point will any enviro or politician say something to the effect of "ok, our job is finished"? Never.

It never ends. Everything can just be a little 'cleaner' or a little 'greener' if you just do this, that, and the other. Where does it end? It doesn't and that's a big problem if you ask me as the goal posts are constantly being moved.

It's only a bad thing if liberties are taken away in order to move those goalposts though, and at the moment I don't think they are. Apart from anything, we're still allowed to buy whatever the hell car we like, which is a very good thing. Although I can see a time when non-electric cars will be banned from city centers, in the UK at least I see that as a good thing because I can think of quite a few UK cities where parts have been ruined by letting cars roam about.

Taketh with one hand, giveth with the other. If they banned cars in the center of the city in which I currently live, it'd make my life as a pedestrian immesurably more pleasant.

Obviously, U.S. cities are different, in that apart from anything many have been designed from the outset to have motorised transport running through them. Car-free cities in the States wouldn't really work.

That and I can see European citizens losing liberties long before you guys in the States do.

Like I said a few posts ago. Environmental and technological stuff? Great. Eco-politics? Not great.

Air quality? Ever thought of bulldozing all the trees and flowers and plants? If you want air quality that's what needs to be done. Gasoline fumes don't make me sneeze.

>

Allergies and air pollution are not the same. Flowers, trees, and plants don't make me sneeze therefore whatever they do to you is your body's fault, not theirs.

Seriously Keef I know you're not keen on electric cars, hybrids etc but if you can't even see the benefits of localised pollution decreasing then there's no hope.

If there's one single reason that EVs are a good idea, it's that one. It's not for no reason that athsma is way more common now than it used to be.

How much does it help the environment though really? The factory that produces them is also zero emission?

Come on dude, I mentioned it only a few posts ago.

  • Factory pollution is largely localised and not in the center of cities, so city center air quality is improved
  • It can also be cleaned up all the time by making the factories cleaner, so it's getting better. As car engines wear, emissions generally increase.
  • I've already been through the CO2 stuff. Even running an EV solely on coal power is still roughly as clean as running a Prius, only you don't also have to include the chain of production of fossil fuels, which is absolutely massive

And again, I'm not just talking CO2. There's a hell of a lot of other crap that gets chucked out the back of cars too. It irritates me that I get taxed on my car's CO2 in the U.K. since it's directly proportional to fuel economy, yet doesn't take into account how much you actually travel. I could buy a Veyron (I wish) and do 500 miles a year in it yet I'd be taxed massively more than someone buying a Prius and doing 20,000 miles a year, causing more pollution. It's not really a fair system.
 
Seriously Keef I know you're not keen on electric cars, hybrids etc but if you can't even see the benefits of localised pollution decreasing then there's no hope.
I've never been to China where everything is brown and very basic air quality improvements could have a great impact, but I have been to New York and never noticed anything out of the ordinary. The air looked and smelled just like it does in the vast, green expanses of Dayton, Ohio.

On the Weather Channel they have some sort of smog level, which I never pay attention to, and they also have a pollen count which actually gets talked about. There are a few people out there who have dreadful allergies and for them how the flowers bloom is of bigger concern than whether or not they can make it to the grocery without getting covered with soot from the local blacksmith's shop.
 
I've never been to China where everything is brown and very basic air quality improvements could have a great impact, but I have been to New York and never noticed anything out of the ordinary. The air looked and smelled just like it does in the vast, green expanses of Dayton, Ohio.

On the Weather Channel they have some sort of smog level, which I never pay attention to, and they also have a pollen count which actually gets talked about. There are a few people out there who have dreadful allergies and for them how the flowers bloom is of bigger concern than whether or not they can make it to the grocery without getting covered with soot from the local blacksmith's shop.

You're being unbelievably ignorant. It's like you're assuming it's not an issue just because you can't see it, in which case I'm guessing you never bother with vaccinations against illness or washing your hands because you can't see germs. I'm sure if you spoke to an athsma sufferer they'd be enthralled to know that pollution isn't really a problem just because you've "never noticed anything out of the ordinary". Maybe they're all just making a big fuss over nothing? Irritating people, coughing all the time.

Still, enjoy your hayfever. I don't get that one myself so I'm happy to keep all the flowers.
 
I'm going to sue the makers of Claritin D for false advertising. It's actually oxides of nitrogen and carbon dioxide causing my runny nose and sneezing, not silly things like ragweed and oak pollen.

To answer your question, the last time I got a flu vaccination I actually got the flu. I don't get the shots anymore. Haven't had flu in many years. And yes, of course I wash my hands. I don't like it when they smell like chicken sandwich or hot wings, you know?
 
Again, what do pollen and all the other things given off by plants and flowers, have to do with air pollution and the quality of air? Or how you can compare that to man-made pollution?
 
I'm going to sue the makers of Claritin D for false advertising. It's actually oxides of nitrogen and carbon dioxide causing my runny nose and sneezing, not silly things like ragweed and oak pollen.

If you're going to troll then do so elsewhere.

If you're actually just being dim then it's not worth me continuing to explain it anyway. But as eSZee has said twice now, pollen allergies are nothing to do with pollution. They're caused by your immune system essentially getting bored and attacking harmless particles, just like with any other allergy.

Pollution causes actual chemical and physical damage to cells and it's not something the immune system can really fight off.

Not only that, but pollution is an entirely man-made phenomenon. Pollen is not.
 
Well I suppose you could have said that the first time around. In my mind, anything in the air that is undesirable would fall under "pollution". And since the only things in the air that bother me are plant allergens...

My Grandma was born in the 20s. Less than half of her life has she been breathing air that any young person today would consider breathable. She's just now exhausting her usefulness at 85 years old. Cancer-free.

When I argue governments' environmental policies with my dad he goes on about how when he was a kid in the 50s and 60s that you could literally become dirty from smoke and soot from Dayton's factories and cars by the time you came home for dinner. I can't say I've ever had that problem.

I've got nothing against making the air cleaner. In some places it honestly is a dangerous problem. But acting like it is the worst it has ever been in suburban America - like so many enviro-hippies and upstanding college students do - is so naive its startling. And they wonder why people like me don't take them seriously.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go warm up my unfiltered rotary-powered car and wait for it to finish spewing oil and half-burned gasoline like a thousand 2-cycle snowblowers in a vain effort to warm itself in this 30 degree weather. I may as well be driving a city bus.
 
Not only that, but pollution is an entirely man-made phenomenon. Pollen is not.

Pollution is whatever the politicians and enviros say it is. Last week it was hydrocarbons. This week it is CO2. Next week, it'll be something else.

This is the goal post that keeps getting moved.

Now I know you hate the political aspect of the automobile industry, but in today's (and yesterday's) world you can't have one without the other. That's the sad reality wherever a lot of money is exchanged or there is a large workforce (union or not).
 
My Grandma was born in the 20s. Less than half of her life has she been breathing air that any young person today would consider breathable. She's just now exhausting her usefulness at 85 years old. Cancer-free.

Cancer isn't the only illness, you know. And I'm not going to deny that it's much worse to smoke 20 a day than wander around New York all day in terms of what you inhale - but that doesn't make the pollution any less significant.

I've got nothing against making the air cleaner. In some places it honestly is a dangerous problem. But acting like it is the worst it has ever been in suburban America - like so many enviro-hippies and upstanding college students do - is so naive its startling. And they wonder why people like me don't take them seriously.

I agree. But then in that sort of situation it's then up to the individual to get their own facts straight.

It's one thing going over the top with scare stories about the environment, but it's no better going completely the other way.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go warm up my unfiltered rotary-powered car and wait for it to finish spewing oil and half-burned gasoline like a thousand 2-cycle snowblowers in a vain effort to warm itself in this 30 degree weather. I may as well be driving a city bus.

You're sure to crash it at some point anyway so the environmental damage will be minimal :sly:

Pollution is whatever the politicians and enviros say it is. Last week it was hydrocarbons. This week it is CO2. Next week, it'll be something else.

The common link: Whatever they are, they're all man-made. There's no such thing as natural pollution.

Now I know you hate the political aspect of the automobile industry, but in today's (and yesterday's) world you can't have one without the other. That's the sad reality wherever a lot of money is exchanged or there is a large workforce (union or not).

I know, it's a bummer. But again, it's up to the individual to make their own, informed decisions.

There are definitely some good arguements against electric cars - range is a pretty good one (sometimes) - but a lot of the ones I hear are the same, tired old guff repeated over and over, and they certainly aren't formed through any education so I can only presume they're formed out of spite in response to feeling greenwashed.
 
The common link: Whatever they are, they're all man-made. There's no such thing as natural pollution.

Hydrocarbons come from natural sources as well, and ~95-97% of co2 emissions come from nature.

Although I think classifying co2 as a pollutant is wrong.

There are definitely some good arguements against electric cars - range is a pretty good one (sometimes) - but a lot of the ones I hear are the same, tired old guff repeated over and over, and they certainly aren't formed through any education so I can only presume they're formed out of spite in response to feeling greenwashed.

The arguements against electric cars are the same because the major gripes about them (range, charge time, etc.) haven't improved a whole lot.
 
Hydrocarbons come from natural sources as well, and ~95-97% of co2 emissions come from nature.

Although I think classifying co2 as a pollutant is wrong.

I don't think classing it as a pollutant is wrong, I do think being taxed on it is.

And yeah, you get naturally occurring hydrocarbons, but I still wouldn't call them pollution as they've been naturally occurring the whole time and would do whether humans were there or not.

If humans produce it and it affects the environment, then it's pollution.

And I'm not sure your CO2 figures are correct anyway. Admittedly the best I have to go on is the data on wikipedia, but quotes like "Emissions of CO2 by human activities are currently more than 130 times greater than the quantity emitted by volcanoes, amounting to about 27 billion tonnes per year" seem to suggest that industrial CO2 outweighs naturally occurring CO2. There's stuff like cattle obviously, but then cattle has been reared by humans for centuries as a foodstuff, which means big numbers attributable to human input.

Then there's deforestation, which has removed nature's ability to re-absorb carbon. There's a select amount of carbon on the Earth and much of it is stored naturally. When you release lots of it and remove nature's ability to re-absorb it, that's going to lead to an increase.

The arguements against electric cars are the same because the major gripes about them (range, charge time, etc.) haven't improved a whole lot.

Agreed, but the sort of people currently buying electric cars have presumably already decided that their needs can be suited. And I suspect there are a great many people out there whose only hurdle is a psychological one, whose needs would be 100% met by an electric car if they had one, they're just unwilling to make the stop across.

Anyway, the sort of arguements I'm referring to are things like "yeah, but where do you get the electricity from?" which is so played-out and easily debunked it's not even funny any more...
 
I don't think classing it as a pollutant is wrong, I do think being taxed on it is.

Calling co2 a pollutant is wrong because we need it to survive. If there was no co2 in the atmosphere we would be goners.

Taxing it is wrong, I agree. If you think about it, it's essentially a tax on breathing.

And yeah, you get naturally occurring hydrocarbons, but I still wouldn't call them pollution as they've been naturally occurring the whole time and would do whether humans were there or not.

If humans produce it and it affects the environment, then it's pollution.

Naturally occurring hydrocarbons are ok, but man made ones are pollution?

You can have naturally occurring sources of pollution.

And I'm not sure your CO2 figures are correct anyway. Admittedly the best I have to go on is the data on wikipedia, but quotes like "Emissions of CO2 by human activities are currently more than 130 times greater than the quantity emitted by volcanoes, amounting to about 27 billion tonnes per year" seem to suggest that industrial CO2 outweighs naturally occurring CO2. There's stuff like cattle obviously, but then cattle has been reared by humans for centuries as a foodstuff, which means big numbers attributable to human input.

Then there's deforestation, which has removed nature's ability to re-absorb carbon. There's a select amount of carbon on the Earth and much of it is stored naturally. When you release lots of it and remove nature's ability to re-absorb it, that's going to lead to an increase.


Almost all of the info I found says man-made co2 accounts for 3-5% of total co2. I don't usually use wikipedia.

Agreed, but the sort of people currently buying electric cars have presumably already decided that their needs can be suited. And I suspect there are a great many people out there whose only hurdle is a psychological one, whose needs would be 100% met by an electric car if they had one, they're just unwilling to make the stop across.

Anyway, the sort of arguements I'm referring to are things like "yeah, but where do you get the electricity from?" which is so played-out and easily debunked it's not even funny any more...

Just because an ev might meet a few peoples needs, does not mean it meets everyone's needs.
 
Calling co2 a pollutant is wrong because we need it to survive. If there was no co2 in the atmosphere we would be goners.

I realise we need it for life, and of course it's fairly important to plants too. That doesn't mean that an excess of it is a good thing.

Naturally occurring hydrocarbons are ok, but man made ones are pollution?

You can have naturally occurring sources of pollution.

Like I said, the naturally occurring ones would be naturally occurring whether man existed or not, therefore there would always be a natural equilibrium with their presence compensated for. Most are just stored naturally.

They wouldn't be burned in the same quantities they're burned though. Burning hydrocarbons releases a lot of elements into the atmosphere that shouldn't necessarily be there.

Don't get me wrong - hydrocarbons are vital for our economy. Oil is a hugely important product, since we need it for lubrication in industrial commerce and other applications, making plastics, and of course, transportation. But it does have a large industrial impact.

Almost all of the info I found says man-made co2 accounts for 3-5% of total co2. I don't usually use wikipedia.

I wouldn't for anything in-depth but articles such as the CO2 one tend to be well referenced so I've no reason to doubt their accuracy.

Just because an ev might meet a few peoples needs, does not mean it meets everyone's needs.

Of course, but then it also means that they're not automatically pointless.
 
Since its initial announcement (with some disbelief until it actually hit showrooms), I've been highly impressed with the Leaf. Or rather, the fact that it exists. However, aside from a few neat features (smartphone-accessible controls, onboard system for finding charging stations, headlight housings that channel air around the side mirrors), I think it's ahead of its time in a bad way. Or perhaps just trying too hard to be both an entry-level car and a snazzy Prius-like technological powerhouse.

Maybe most people expect an electric car to be fancy, "showing off" its electric nature with a variety of, well, electric gizmos. Personally, I'd expect an electric car to acknowledge the fact that we can't yet build one with a remarkable range, and to do everything it can (or omit everything it can) to extend it. The Leaf's big digital display panels, automatic headlights, and a full-on navigation system are not my idea of electric frugality. It could probably stand to lose some weight too, but there's no escaping the curse of excessive safety features these days.

The paradox is that Nissan went to lengths in other areas to improve efficiency and range -- reducing aerodynamic drag with the trick headlights and a plastic undercarriage, LEDs in the headlights to reduce energy usage, solar panel on the spoiler -- yet basically negated it all in appeasing the average consumer's "need" for unnecessary creature comforts. And unlike the Tesla Roadster or Model S, the Leaf isn't a premium car. It's an expensive economy car half-heartedly trying to mask the fact that it's powered by electrons.

Even if the drain from those flashy extras is minimal, I'm sorry, but ~100 miles on a good day just isn't enough, especially with recharge times measured in hours. You can assume Leaf buyers will understand what they're getting into, and that the majority of driving will take place in cities...but I'll believe that when I see it.

What I have seen, like homeforsummer mentioned earlier, is people thrashing around in their Priuses like they're magical MPG multipliers. I expect to see much of the same with Leaf drivers, particularly with the "pep" I read about in Road & Track's review (which talked about dusting other cars at stoplights). I'm waiting until I see my first Leaf stranded on the side of a freeway...or an owner desperately waiting for a recharge at a gas station/business in the middle of nowhere. :lol: City driving isn't without its threats to electric cars, either, what with the possibility of miles of sprawl between home and work and time-draining oceans of traffic (or battery-draining on days that require AC or the heater).

I have nothing against electric cars as a concept, and the Leaf is pretty neat, but I think it's too soon. On the other hand, even good electric cars will never be adopted if we don't get the ball rolling early, so there's that. :indiff:

-----------------------

On the topic of manmade climate change, here's a graph to consider. The website it came from is probably a little more legit than wikipedia. If I'm reading it right, the dark blue percentages are the contribution by humans:
image270f.gif


Elsewhere on that page, it backs up the 3-5% manmade CO2 figure Adamgp mentioned.
 
I stand corrected on the CO2 data 👍 Though also worth noting that CO2 is by no means the sole pollutant from regular vehicles.

Even if the drain from those flashy extras is minimal, I'm sorry, but ~100 miles on a good day just isn't enough, especially with recharge times measured in hours. You can assume Leaf buyers will understand what they're getting into, and that the majority of driving will take place in cities...but I'll believe that when I see it.

I can't see how you can't see it. People are very aware that the car has limited range and if that doesn't suit them, then they won't buy it.

If you have a dozen kids you're not going to buy a Miata as a family car. Likewise, if you regularly travel over 100 miles, you're unlikely to plump for a Leaf.

Which is why this:

I'm waiting until I see my first Leaf stranded on the side of a freeway...or an owner desperately waiting for a recharge at a gas station/business in the middle of nowhere. :lol:

...is nonsense, because you always drive within a car's capabilities and EV owners will be no different. Nobody is expecting to be able to drive across the country in one so you won't see hundreds of Leaf owners stranded on the highway wondering why they've only made it 100 miles out of town.

Which is why I don't expect to see this:

I expect to see much of the same with Leaf drivers, particularly with the "pep" I read about in Road & Track's review

And if I do, then it'll be lots of sprinting off the line in cities, where the range doesn't matter anyway.

Incidentally, it'd be interesting to know what people would consider an acceptable range for an EV. A Tesla Roadster can manage between 200-230 miles in normal driving, which I reckon is pretty good. My Panda only gets 250 miles from a tank of petrol, and I've heard that cars such as Mitsubishi Evos barely manage 200 miles even in average driving.

I have nothing against electric cars as a concept, and the Leaf is pretty neat, but I think it's too soon. On the other hand, even good electric cars will never be adopted if we don't get the ball rolling early, so there's that. :indiff:

Well, quite. Someone has to start it and the Leaf isn't a bad way of doing so.

As far as I can tell, it's a very good car. Yes, it's comparatively expensive and yes, the range is relatively low, but those factors excepted it's at least as good as the other cars in its class, with the bonus of being immeasurably better around town.

As an aside, does anyone else have an interest in the potential engineering benefits and direction of electric cars (such as, the extra things we can do when not being constrained by the need to have an engine and transmission in a particular place in a car)? I'm quite surprised amongst car enthusiasts, who tend to at least have a basic interest in engineering and technology, that there isn't more fascination over where the motor industry is heading.

It does leave me wondering sometimes whether many car enthusiasts are a little... stuck in the past?
 
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I stand corrected on the CO2 data 👍 Though also worth noting that CO2 is by no means the sole pollutant from regular vehicles.

Agreed, It isn't the sole pollutant from cars. 👍 Co2 is however man's biggest contribution as fas as "greenhouse gases" are concerned, even if the amount we generate is almost nothing compared to nature.


I can't see how you can't see it. People are very aware that the car has limited range and if that doesn't suit them, then they won't buy it.

If you have a dozen kids you're not going to buy a Miata as a family car. Likewise, if you regularly travel over 100 miles, you're unlikely to plump for a Leaf.

Which is why this:



...is nonsense, because you always drive within a car's capabilities and EV owners will be no different. Nobody is expecting to be able to drive across the country in one so you won't see hundreds of Leaf owners stranded on the highway wondering why they've only made it 100 miles out of town.

Agreed, they should know the range limits of their vehicle. 👍

Although there are plenty of people who try to stretch the range limits of their gas powered cars and come up short.

Which is why I don't expect to see this:



And if I do, then it'll be lots of sprinting off the line in cities, where the range doesn't matter anyway.

Incidentally, it'd be interesting to know what people would consider an acceptable range for an EV. A Tesla Roadster can manage between 200-230 miles in normal driving, which I reckon is pretty good. My Panda only gets 250 miles from a tank of petrol, and I've heard that cars such as Mitsubishi Evos barely manage 200 miles even in average driving.

I expect to see it. Most Hybrid drivers around here think owning one gives them a license to drive like a whacko. The others who drive hybrids seem to do the exact opposite and drive like grandmas, well below the speed limit.

Agreed the Tesla does get decent range, but has a base price ~4X that of the leaf. Even then there is still a matter of the recharge time.

Well, quite. Someone has to start it and the Leaf isn't a bad way of doing so.

As far as I can tell, it's a very good car. Yes, it's comparatively expensive and yes, the range is relatively low, but those factors excepted it's at least as good as the other cars in its class, with the bonus of being immeasurably better around town.

As an aside, does anyone else have an interest in the potential engineering benefits and direction of electric cars (such as, the extra things we can do when not being constrained by the need to have an engine and transmission in a particular place in a car)? I'm quite surprised amongst car enthusiasts, who tend to at least have a basic interest in engineering and technology, that there isn't more fascination over where the motor industry is heading.

It does leave me wondering sometimes whether many car enthusiasts are a little... stuck in the past?

Electric cars have been around since the early days of the automobile, the EV idea is nothing new.
 
Just to throw some fuel on the fire...

1: anyone with any slant can edit Wikipedia. It's likely that much of what is written on Global Warming was written by someone who believes in it. It simply has to be well written.

2: Burt Rutan has looked at Global warming research, and this is what he came up with - I did find this on Wikipedia, however, I'll include the works cited and let you make your own conclusions.

Wikipedia
On July 29, 2009, Burt Rutan drew a full house for his presentation at the Experimental Aircraft Association's EAA Airventure 2009 Oshkosh Conference entitled "Non-Aerospace Research Quests of a Designer/Flight Test Engineer" where he discussed his thoughts on his hobby of climate change.[38] Although he admitted in his presentation that he was not a climate scientist, he stated he spent most of his career on data analysis and interpretation and how it is used or misused.[39]

"I put myself in the (Those who fear expansion of Government control) group, and do not hide the fact that I have a clear bias on [ Anthropogenic global warming (AGW)]. My bias is based on fear of Government expansion and the observation of AGW data presentation fraud - not based on financial or any other personal benefit. I merely have found that the closer you look at the data and alarmists’ presentations, the more fraud you find and the less you think there is an AGW problem... For decades, as a professional experimental test engineer, I have analyzed experimental data and watched others massage and present data. I became a cynic; My conclusion – “if someone is aggressively selling a technical product whose merits are dependent on complex experimental data, he is likely lying”. That is true whether the product is an airplane or a Carbon Credit."

He describes his interest on the climate change topic as deriving from his "interest in technology, not tree hugging". Burt Rutan's house was featured in a November 1, 1989 article in Popular Science entitled: "21st Century Pyramid: The Ultimate Energy-efficient House".[40]

Rutan will also not interview with Scientific American, as he claimed that the magazine has "...improperly covered man-made global warming. They drink Kool-Aid instead of doing research. They parrot stuff from the IPCC and Al Gore."[41]

http://www.airventure.org/news/2009/090731_rutan.html
http://rps3.com/Pages/Burt_Rutan_on_Climate_Change.htm
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-7999687.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527451.000-burt-rutan-the-maverick-of-mojave.html

and now, I'm done. It's likely he's probably a supporter of Electrics...just not climate change.
 
Agreed the Tesla does get decent range, but has a base price ~4X that of the leaf. Even then there is still a matter of the recharge time.

Well in one respect you could view the Leaf as an engineering success, since it provides 40% of the Tesla's range for about 25% of the cost :sly:

As for recharge time, it goes hand in hand with the range. If the range isn't good enough, then the recharge time won't suit either. If you only ever commute locally though, the recharge time is a total non-issue since you'll only ever be recharging it at home or at work, in other words charging whilst you're doing something else (working or sleeping!).

Electric cars have been around since the early days of the automobile, the EV idea is nothing new.

I'm aware, but there's been a large gap in EV development between about 1915 and 2005 in which cars as a whole have been improving technologically, and all this stuff can be dropped straight onto modern EVs.

My point though was that free from the constraints of needing to find space for an engine and traditional drivetrain there can potentially be a complete rethink of car packaging and styling as you don't need an engine compartment, say, or a transmission tunnel. The Leaf looks pretty much like a normal car so as not to weird people out too much, but I'm really interested in the potential for doing something genuinely different.
 
I can't see how you can't see it. People are very aware that the car has limited range and if that doesn't suit them, then they won't buy it.

If you have a dozen kids you're not going to buy a Miata as a family car. Likewise, if you regularly travel over 100 miles, you're unlikely to plump for a Leaf.

...you always drive within a car's capabilities and EV owners will be no different.
Maybe you're more aware of the sort of people buying this car, but I imagine people looking at it and thinking, "it's like a Prius, only better!" The Leaf's name even underscores the fashionable "green" statement one may make by driving one.

In america, most people can't be bothered to figure out basic driving habits that will improve their fuel economy, use giant SUVs for simple commuting (even when they have a choice), and complain about (cheap) gas prices while filling the 50 gallon tank they emptied while driving their 7-ton Escafrontieroutdoorsmanalade like a racecar just to go to the mall for a new pair of jeans.

If someone of that sort finally gets fed up with their Escafrontieroutdoorsmanalade and decides to make that "green" fashion statement by getting a Leaf, you can bet they'll push the range function of the navigation system down to its last mile (if they even pay attention to it), neglecting to charge the car while at work or wherever simply because they don't feel like bothering to hook up the cable.

Really, I think we're split on a cultural difference more than anything. There are certainly proper EV enthusiasts here who will understand what they're getting into (I never meant to imply there aren't), but I imagine a greater percentage of Leaf buyers on your side of the pond will be of the well-informed type.

Nobody is expecting to be able to drive across the country in one so you won't see hundreds of Leaf owners stranded on the highway wondering why they've only made it 100 miles out of town.
I never expected "hundreds" of stranded Leaves (how many have even been sold yet??), but again, with the cultural difference, we've got so much landmass that driving from your home to Berlin might be the equivalent of driving to grandma's house here.

My fiancée and I routinely drive 90 miles (one way) to get between Madison and the area where her parents live (and where my parents have a cabin). That's practically the entire usable range of the Leaf, and I hardly consider it much of a drive at all. I'll even sometimes take the backroads, which can almost double the time it takes, just to have some fun with my BMW.

Obviously not every Leaf buyer will try to use it for a drive like that, but the fact that you'd have to leave with a full charge, take it easy, and not plan on driving anywhere after you've arrived...I still think it's too early for EVs. It's not a "city car" like the Smart ForTwo. It's a "city car" because a practical EV can't really manage anything else yet.

Incidentally, it'd be interesting to know what people would consider an acceptable range for an EV. A Tesla Roadster can manage between 200-230 miles in normal driving, which I reckon is pretty good. My Panda only gets 250 miles from a tank of petrol, and I've heard that cars such as Mitsubishi Evos barely manage 200 miles even in average driving.
I'd expect a properly usable EV to be able to keep up with my tiny-tanked Ninja, which means about 200 miles. The Tesla Roadster's range is affected a little too much by driving habits (from what I've read), but I think it set a good example.

As an aside, does anyone else have an interest in the potential engineering benefits and direction of electric cars (such as, the extra things we can do when not being constrained by the need to have an engine and transmission in a particular place in a car)? I'm quite surprised amongst car enthusiasts, who tend to at least have a basic interest in engineering and technology, that there isn't more fascination over where the motor industry is heading.
I'm positively excited by all of the possibilities and new things we're beginning to see. I intend to become an automotive journalist (very close to finishing my journalism degree), so I can't wait to evaluate what the industry has to offer. I fully expect fun EVs, like the Tesla, to be produced, and I'd love to be the one to inform the public which ones are worth buying.

Like I said in my last post, the Leaf is impressive because it exists. Today there exists a full-fledged production EV for sale. That was unimaginable just a few years ago. But I don't think it's the game-changer some people expect it to be; just something EV enthusiasts can cheer about. My $0.02. :)
 
Maybe you're more aware of the sort of people buying this car, but I imagine people looking at it and thinking, "it's like a Prius, only better!" The Leaf's name even underscores the fashionable "green" statement one may make by driving one.

In america, most people can't be bothered to figure out basic driving habits that will improve their fuel economy, use giant SUVs for simple commuting (even when they have a choice), and complain about (cheap) gas prices while filling the 50 gallon tank they emptied while driving their 7-ton Escafrontieroutdoorsmanalade like a racecar just to go to the mall for a new pair of jeans.

If someone of that sort finally gets fed up with their Escafrontieroutdoorsmanalade and decides to make that "green" fashion statement by getting a Leaf, you can bet they'll push the range function of the navigation system down to its last mile (if they even pay attention to it), neglecting to charge the car while at work or wherever simply because they don't feel like bothering to hook up the cable.

Really, I think we're split on a cultural difference more than anything. There are certainly proper EV enthusiasts here who will understand what they're getting into (I never meant to imply there aren't), but I imagine a greater percentage of Leaf buyers on your side of the pond will be of the well-informed type.

It's hard to say. In theory the market over there for Leaves (which I'd like to think is the plural) is greater than that in Europe even considering the different journey types, simply because of how vast the car market is out there and how much more sensitive the States is to gas prices - the last time they rose the sales of big SUVs and trucks crashed and even a company that's struggling over there - Smart - saw a 60% increase in sales.

If people realise how much they could save in an EV then I reckon they'd go for them.

As for driving habits, it's also hard to say. The very first Leaf buyer from Northern California didn't even own a car before, he used to commute on a bicycle and the Leaf was essentially replacing that, giving him an all-weather option!

Admittedly not all Leaf buyers will be so eager as the ones who put down their deposits first, but most people I've come across who've ordered one are the sort of people who're likely to eke as many miles as possible from a "tank" of electricity. Whether more casual buyers in a few years time will be the same or not is open to debate, though given that we'll still have regular internal combustion vehicles for many decades to come I suspect that EV buyers really will be the ones who want to drive economically.

I still think a full EV will be less about the "image" and more about totally removing fossil fuels from your driving.

I never expected "hundreds" of stranded Leaves (how many have even been sold yet??), but again, with the cultural difference, we've got so much landmass that driving from your home to Berlin might be the equivalent of driving to grandma's house here.

My fiancée and I routinely drive 90 miles (one way) to get between Madison and the area where her parents live (and where my parents have a cabin). That's practically the entire usable range of the Leaf, and I hardly consider it much of a drive at all. I'll even sometimes take the backroads, which can almost double the time it takes, just to have some fun with my BMW.

Obviously not every Leaf buyer will try to use it for a drive like that, but the fact that you'd have to leave with a full charge, take it easy, and not plan on driving anywhere after you've arrived...I still think it's too early for EVs. It's not a "city car" like the Smart ForTwo. It's a "city car" because a practical EV can't really manage anything else yet.

I agree, 100 miles would be pushing it for many people, but then for many other people it'd be more than enough.

I've said a few times before that unless someone would like to give me a Tesla, I couldn't personally live with an electric car just yet. I make journeys of Leaf-worrying distance regularly enough that a full EV would probably bring me out in a cold sweat on too many journeys.

I do know a lot of people though who'd virtually never get close to exhausting a battery, and in the U.K. at least it's entirely feasible to never do more than 100 miles in a day for months and months at a time.

As far as the "city car" tag goes, I'd got the impression that a Smart is actually too small for most U.S. cities since U.S. cities tend to be vastly more spacious than European ones. In this scenario, I reckon a Leaf, with five seats, a decent boot and a comfy ride, would actually be pretty much the perfect city car when space isn't at as much of a premium.

I'd expect a properly usable EV to be able to keep up with my tiny-tanked Ninja, which means about 200 miles. The Tesla Roadster's range is affected a little too much by driving habits (from what I've read), but I think it set a good example.

Range always varies ;) In an Autocar test I have of the Tesla, their "track thrash" range, where they spend a day figuring the car, was about 120 miles (unhelpfully the test on their website has "no data" for all their economy tests, when in the magazine there's a host of data) and they managed over 200 in mixed driving as far as I can remember. If you're interested, I'll dig out the mag (it's around somewhere) and give you all the stats.

I'm positively excited by all of the possibilities and new things we're beginning to see. I intend to become an automotive journalist (very close to finishing my journalism degree), so I can't wait to evaluate what the industry has to offer. I fully expect fun EVs, like the Tesla, to be produced, and I'd love to be the one to inform the public which ones are worth buying.

Having just graduated from a journalism degree myself, good luck to you 👍 We may even work for the same mag one day, given that I intend to move to the U.S. at some point!

Like I said in my last post, the Leaf is impressive because it exists. Today there exists a full-fledged production EV for sale. That was unimaginable just a few years ago. But I don't think it's the game-changer some people expect it to be; just something EV enthusiasts can cheer about. My $0.02. :)

:cheers: I believe it to be a game-changer in so much as it's a genuinely capable car that also happens to be electric. Like the Tesla, it's out there banishing ideas of golf carts, G-Wiz nasties and other neighborhood EVs that are responsible for much of the image problems suffered by electric cars. That it's even fairly affordable (top-end Prius money isn't bad for a full EV) is even better.
 
It's not going to work in Europe, not many people have their own land let alone a garage to park their car in. Cars are left on the streets and even then it might be nowhere near your actual house. Even if you found or have a regular parking space outside your house you will not have a cable running over the pavement from car to house. Firstly people will trip over it and you will be taken to court. Secondly as soon as it's dark and people are walking home from the pub it will be vandalised.
 
It's not going to work in Europe, not many people have their own land let alone a garage to park their car in. Cars are left on the streets and even then it might be nowhere near your actual house. Even if you found or have a regular parking space outside your house you will not have a cable running over the pavement from car to house. Firstly people will trip over it and you will be taken to court. Secondly as soon as it's dark and people are walking home from the pub it will be vandalised.

I'm not sure where you live in Europe but I can think of dozens and dozens of neighborhoods that have both driveways and garages around where I live, and plenty of apartment blocks with car parks that could be retro-fitted with charging points too.

I'll admit that I currently live on a street where I'd have to lie a cable across the pavement (if I had a cable long enough), but then I can't think of many people on student budgets who could buy an EV anyway.

In the UK if you can afford the disposable income for a £25k electric car, then I'd expect you're also fairly likely to have your own place with a garage too.
 
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