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It will be mass marketed starting 2012. Prices should drop.
Nope. Nissan would need to sell a million of them annually for the price to go down and for them to make a profit.
It will be mass marketed starting 2012. Prices should drop.
Nope. Nissan would need to sell a million of them annually for the price to go down and for them to make a profit.
Any source on that figure?
Localised air quality improvement is probably one of the main selling points of EVs, incidentally. It's something that you can't really argue against.
Air quality? Ever thought of bulldozing all the trees and flowers and plants? If you want air quality that's what needs to be done. Gasoline fumes don't make me sneeze.Localised air quality improvement is probably one of the main selling points of EVs, incidentally. It's something that you can't really argue against.
And there's the rub.
Perfection is the enemy of good enough. At what point will any enviro or politician say something to the effect of "ok, our job is finished"? Never.
It never ends. Everything can just be a little 'cleaner' or a little 'greener' if you just do this, that, and the other. Where does it end? It doesn't and that's a big problem if you ask me as the goal posts are constantly being moved.
Air quality? Ever thought of bulldozing all the trees and flowers and plants? If you want air quality that's what needs to be done. Gasoline fumes don't make me sneeze.
Allergies and air pollution are not the same. Flowers, trees, and plants don't make me sneeze therefore whatever they do to you is your body's fault, not theirs.
How much does it help the environment though really? The factory that produces them is also zero emission?
I've never been to China where everything is brown and very basic air quality improvements could have a great impact, but I have been to New York and never noticed anything out of the ordinary. The air looked and smelled just like it does in the vast, green expanses of Dayton, Ohio.Seriously Keef I know you're not keen on electric cars, hybrids etc but if you can't even see the benefits of localised pollution decreasing then there's no hope.
I've never been to China where everything is brown and very basic air quality improvements could have a great impact, but I have been to New York and never noticed anything out of the ordinary. The air looked and smelled just like it does in the vast, green expanses of Dayton, Ohio.
On the Weather Channel they have some sort of smog level, which I never pay attention to, and they also have a pollen count which actually gets talked about. There are a few people out there who have dreadful allergies and for them how the flowers bloom is of bigger concern than whether or not they can make it to the grocery without getting covered with soot from the local blacksmith's shop.
I'm going to sue the makers of Claritin D for false advertising. It's actually oxides of nitrogen and carbon dioxide causing my runny nose and sneezing, not silly things like ragweed and oak pollen.
Not only that, but pollution is an entirely man-made phenomenon. Pollen is not.
My Grandma was born in the 20s. Less than half of her life has she been breathing air that any young person today would consider breathable. She's just now exhausting her usefulness at 85 years old. Cancer-free.
I've got nothing against making the air cleaner. In some places it honestly is a dangerous problem. But acting like it is the worst it has ever been in suburban America - like so many enviro-hippies and upstanding college students do - is so naive its startling. And they wonder why people like me don't take them seriously.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to go warm up my unfiltered rotary-powered car and wait for it to finish spewing oil and half-burned gasoline like a thousand 2-cycle snowblowers in a vain effort to warm itself in this 30 degree weather. I may as well be driving a city bus.
Pollution is whatever the politicians and enviros say it is. Last week it was hydrocarbons. This week it is CO2. Next week, it'll be something else.
Now I know you hate the political aspect of the automobile industry, but in today's (and yesterday's) world you can't have one without the other. That's the sad reality wherever a lot of money is exchanged or there is a large workforce (union or not).
The common link: Whatever they are, they're all man-made. There's no such thing as natural pollution.
There are definitely some good arguements against electric cars - range is a pretty good one (sometimes) - but a lot of the ones I hear are the same, tired old guff repeated over and over, and they certainly aren't formed through any education so I can only presume they're formed out of spite in response to feeling greenwashed.
Hydrocarbons come from natural sources as well, and ~95-97% of co2 emissions come from nature.
Although I think classifying co2 as a pollutant is wrong.
The arguements against electric cars are the same because the major gripes about them (range, charge time, etc.) haven't improved a whole lot.
I don't think classing it as a pollutant is wrong, I do think being taxed on it is.
And yeah, you get naturally occurring hydrocarbons, but I still wouldn't call them pollution as they've been naturally occurring the whole time and would do whether humans were there or not.
If humans produce it and it affects the environment, then it's pollution.
And I'm not sure your CO2 figures are correct anyway. Admittedly the best I have to go on is the data on wikipedia, but quotes like "Emissions of CO2 by human activities are currently more than 130 times greater than the quantity emitted by volcanoes, amounting to about 27 billion tonnes per year" seem to suggest that industrial CO2 outweighs naturally occurring CO2. There's stuff like cattle obviously, but then cattle has been reared by humans for centuries as a foodstuff, which means big numbers attributable to human input.
Then there's deforestation, which has removed nature's ability to re-absorb carbon. There's a select amount of carbon on the Earth and much of it is stored naturally. When you release lots of it and remove nature's ability to re-absorb it, that's going to lead to an increase.
Agreed, but the sort of people currently buying electric cars have presumably already decided that their needs can be suited. And I suspect there are a great many people out there whose only hurdle is a psychological one, whose needs would be 100% met by an electric car if they had one, they're just unwilling to make the stop across.
Anyway, the sort of arguements I'm referring to are things like "yeah, but where do you get the electricity from?" which is so played-out and easily debunked it's not even funny any more...
Calling co2 a pollutant is wrong because we need it to survive. If there was no co2 in the atmosphere we would be goners.
Naturally occurring hydrocarbons are ok, but man made ones are pollution?
You can have naturally occurring sources of pollution.
Almost all of the info I found says man-made co2 accounts for 3-5% of total co2. I don't usually use wikipedia.
Just because an ev might meet a few peoples needs, does not mean it meets everyone's needs.
Even if the drain from those flashy extras is minimal, I'm sorry, but ~100 miles on a good day just isn't enough, especially with recharge times measured in hours. You can assume Leaf buyers will understand what they're getting into, and that the majority of driving will take place in cities...but I'll believe that when I see it.
I'm waiting until I see my first Leaf stranded on the side of a freeway...or an owner desperately waiting for a recharge at a gas station/business in the middle of nowhere.![]()
I expect to see much of the same with Leaf drivers, particularly with the "pep" I read about in Road & Track's review
I have nothing against electric cars as a concept, and the Leaf is pretty neat, but I think it's too soon. On the other hand, even good electric cars will never be adopted if we don't get the ball rolling early, so there's that.![]()
I stand corrected on the CO2 data 👍 Though also worth noting that CO2 is by no means the sole pollutant from regular vehicles.
I can't see how you can't see it. People are very aware that the car has limited range and if that doesn't suit them, then they won't buy it.
If you have a dozen kids you're not going to buy a Miata as a family car. Likewise, if you regularly travel over 100 miles, you're unlikely to plump for a Leaf.
Which is why this:
...is nonsense, because you always drive within a car's capabilities and EV owners will be no different. Nobody is expecting to be able to drive across the country in one so you won't see hundreds of Leaf owners stranded on the highway wondering why they've only made it 100 miles out of town.
Which is why I don't expect to see this:
And if I do, then it'll be lots of sprinting off the line in cities, where the range doesn't matter anyway.
Incidentally, it'd be interesting to know what people would consider an acceptable range for an EV. A Tesla Roadster can manage between 200-230 miles in normal driving, which I reckon is pretty good. My Panda only gets 250 miles from a tank of petrol, and I've heard that cars such as Mitsubishi Evos barely manage 200 miles even in average driving.
Well, quite. Someone has to start it and the Leaf isn't a bad way of doing so.
As far as I can tell, it's a very good car. Yes, it's comparatively expensive and yes, the range is relatively low, but those factors excepted it's at least as good as the other cars in its class, with the bonus of being immeasurably better around town.
As an aside, does anyone else have an interest in the potential engineering benefits and direction of electric cars (such as, the extra things we can do when not being constrained by the need to have an engine and transmission in a particular place in a car)? I'm quite surprised amongst car enthusiasts, who tend to at least have a basic interest in engineering and technology, that there isn't more fascination over where the motor industry is heading.
It does leave me wondering sometimes whether many car enthusiasts are a little... stuck in the past?
WikipediaOn July 29, 2009, Burt Rutan drew a full house for his presentation at the Experimental Aircraft Association's EAA Airventure 2009 Oshkosh Conference entitled "Non-Aerospace Research Quests of a Designer/Flight Test Engineer" where he discussed his thoughts on his hobby of climate change.[38] Although he admitted in his presentation that he was not a climate scientist, he stated he spent most of his career on data analysis and interpretation and how it is used or misused.[39]
"I put myself in the (Those who fear expansion of Government control) group, and do not hide the fact that I have a clear bias on [ Anthropogenic global warming (AGW)]. My bias is based on fear of Government expansion and the observation of AGW data presentation fraud - not based on financial or any other personal benefit. I merely have found that the closer you look at the data and alarmists’ presentations, the more fraud you find and the less you think there is an AGW problem... For decades, as a professional experimental test engineer, I have analyzed experimental data and watched others massage and present data. I became a cynic; My conclusion – “if someone is aggressively selling a technical product whose merits are dependent on complex experimental data, he is likely lying”. That is true whether the product is an airplane or a Carbon Credit."
He describes his interest on the climate change topic as deriving from his "interest in technology, not tree hugging". Burt Rutan's house was featured in a November 1, 1989 article in Popular Science entitled: "21st Century Pyramid: The Ultimate Energy-efficient House".[40]
Rutan will also not interview with Scientific American, as he claimed that the magazine has "...improperly covered man-made global warming. They drink Kool-Aid instead of doing research. They parrot stuff from the IPCC and Al Gore."[41]
Agreed the Tesla does get decent range, but has a base price ~4X that of the leaf. Even then there is still a matter of the recharge time.
Electric cars have been around since the early days of the automobile, the EV idea is nothing new.
Maybe you're more aware of the sort of people buying this car, but I imagine people looking at it and thinking, "it's like a Prius, only better!" The Leaf's name even underscores the fashionable "green" statement one may make by driving one.I can't see how you can't see it. People are very aware that the car has limited range and if that doesn't suit them, then they won't buy it.
If you have a dozen kids you're not going to buy a Miata as a family car. Likewise, if you regularly travel over 100 miles, you're unlikely to plump for a Leaf.
...you always drive within a car's capabilities and EV owners will be no different.
I never expected "hundreds" of stranded Leaves (how many have even been sold yet??), but again, with the cultural difference, we've got so much landmass that driving from your home to Berlin might be the equivalent of driving to grandma's house here.Nobody is expecting to be able to drive across the country in one so you won't see hundreds of Leaf owners stranded on the highway wondering why they've only made it 100 miles out of town.
I'd expect a properly usable EV to be able to keep up with my tiny-tanked Ninja, which means about 200 miles. The Tesla Roadster's range is affected a little too much by driving habits (from what I've read), but I think it set a good example.Incidentally, it'd be interesting to know what people would consider an acceptable range for an EV. A Tesla Roadster can manage between 200-230 miles in normal driving, which I reckon is pretty good. My Panda only gets 250 miles from a tank of petrol, and I've heard that cars such as Mitsubishi Evos barely manage 200 miles even in average driving.
I'm positively excited by all of the possibilities and new things we're beginning to see. I intend to become an automotive journalist (very close to finishing my journalism degree), so I can't wait to evaluate what the industry has to offer. I fully expect fun EVs, like the Tesla, to be produced, and I'd love to be the one to inform the public which ones are worth buying.As an aside, does anyone else have an interest in the potential engineering benefits and direction of electric cars (such as, the extra things we can do when not being constrained by the need to have an engine and transmission in a particular place in a car)? I'm quite surprised amongst car enthusiasts, who tend to at least have a basic interest in engineering and technology, that there isn't more fascination over where the motor industry is heading.
Maybe you're more aware of the sort of people buying this car, but I imagine people looking at it and thinking, "it's like a Prius, only better!" The Leaf's name even underscores the fashionable "green" statement one may make by driving one.
In america, most people can't be bothered to figure out basic driving habits that will improve their fuel economy, use giant SUVs for simple commuting (even when they have a choice), and complain about (cheap) gas prices while filling the 50 gallon tank they emptied while driving their 7-ton Escafrontieroutdoorsmanalade like a racecar just to go to the mall for a new pair of jeans.
If someone of that sort finally gets fed up with their Escafrontieroutdoorsmanalade and decides to make that "green" fashion statement by getting a Leaf, you can bet they'll push the range function of the navigation system down to its last mile (if they even pay attention to it), neglecting to charge the car while at work or wherever simply because they don't feel like bothering to hook up the cable.
Really, I think we're split on a cultural difference more than anything. There are certainly proper EV enthusiasts here who will understand what they're getting into (I never meant to imply there aren't), but I imagine a greater percentage of Leaf buyers on your side of the pond will be of the well-informed type.
I never expected "hundreds" of stranded Leaves (how many have even been sold yet??), but again, with the cultural difference, we've got so much landmass that driving from your home to Berlin might be the equivalent of driving to grandma's house here.
My fiancée and I routinely drive 90 miles (one way) to get between Madison and the area where her parents live (and where my parents have a cabin). That's practically the entire usable range of the Leaf, and I hardly consider it much of a drive at all. I'll even sometimes take the backroads, which can almost double the time it takes, just to have some fun with my BMW.
Obviously not every Leaf buyer will try to use it for a drive like that, but the fact that you'd have to leave with a full charge, take it easy, and not plan on driving anywhere after you've arrived...I still think it's too early for EVs. It's not a "city car" like the Smart ForTwo. It's a "city car" because a practical EV can't really manage anything else yet.
I'd expect a properly usable EV to be able to keep up with my tiny-tanked Ninja, which means about 200 miles. The Tesla Roadster's range is affected a little too much by driving habits (from what I've read), but I think it set a good example.
I'm positively excited by all of the possibilities and new things we're beginning to see. I intend to become an automotive journalist (very close to finishing my journalism degree), so I can't wait to evaluate what the industry has to offer. I fully expect fun EVs, like the Tesla, to be produced, and I'd love to be the one to inform the public which ones are worth buying.
Like I said in my last post, the Leaf is impressive because it exists. Today there exists a full-fledged production EV for sale. That was unimaginable just a few years ago. But I don't think it's the game-changer some people expect it to be; just something EV enthusiasts can cheer about. My $0.02.![]()
It's not going to work in Europe, not many people have their own land let alone a garage to park their car in. Cars are left on the streets and even then it might be nowhere near your actual house. Even if you found or have a regular parking space outside your house you will not have a cable running over the pavement from car to house. Firstly people will trip over it and you will be taken to court. Secondly as soon as it's dark and people are walking home from the pub it will be vandalised.