No F1 HD broadcasts until 2012

  • Thread starter Thread starter TheMoose
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It doesn't make financial sense to do so though, as we have just discussed in this thread. Its not that Bernie is asking too much, its more that TV companies aren't interested in paying very much at all for HD because the number of viewers of HD feeds in Europe is relatively low.
For F1 to be broadcast in HD, it would need a majority of the TV broadcasters to want it and I imagine many European broadcasters don't feel they have the audience to really justify paying for it.

We have seen that Bernie can be reasonable if he needs to be, but in this case he doesn't.

It's a Chicken or Egg thing, No content means no incentive to get a HDTV.

When I got my first HDTV the only HD programing was a few prime time network shows & 4 DirecTV HD stations (I can't tell you how many times I watched Sunrise Earth because it was the only HD available!)
Now I can watch all prime time shows in HD & there is over 100 HD channels on DirecTV & more coming all the time.

If there are truly as many F1 fans in Europe as Bernie claims then showing F1 in HD would drive people to buy more HDTV's.

I bet Bernie has told the TV manufactures that if he gets a cut of every HDTV sold he will put F1 in HD! :trouble: (only joking a little, that really sounds like something Bernie would do!)
 
That's another thing about HD freeview boxes released this year.

They cost around £100 and a decent model costs £160 without any hard drive. This pricing doesn't make the adoption faster. They should drop after the world cup but that should give you an idea of how they manage this. TV companies complain how much bandwidth HD takes up. They hope to encourage more on to Sky subscriptions for HD.

I bought a SD freeview box in 2004 for my dad and it cost £15, you can still pick them up for a £10-£15. The whole country has bought these or a new TV with one built in and switched over. Then outcomes HD freeview box thats just encoding MPEG4 and they want £160 at launch a few months ago. I expect to pay £30-40 for a decent HD freeview box.
 
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No, they're much more expensive in the UK. A whopping £44.99! ;)

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/5322185/c_1/1|category_root|Home+entertainment+and+sat+nav|14419512/c_2/3|15701169|Digital+boxes+and+services|14419633/c_3/4|cat_14419633|Freeview+digital+set+top+boxes|14419638.htm?_$ja=tsid:11527|cc:|prd:5322185|cat:home+entertainment+%3E+digital+boxes+and+services+%3E+freeview+digital+set+top+boxes

Cheapest I've found is £100

What make is it mate? I don't want to spend £100 on some of the makes I've seen.

http://www.pixmania.co.uk/uk/uk/2547231/art/metronic/zapbox-hd-z2-freeview-rec.html?srcid=867

£76 - not too bad

http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.207-3015.aspx

Phillips HD box £170

I don't mind spending £10-15 on some crappy receiver but £100 I'd expect a decent brand.

Anyways, should be better after the World Cup and maybe people will start buying them.
 
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It doesn't make financial sense to do so though, as we have just discussed in this thread. Its not that Bernie is asking too much, its more that TV companies aren't interested in paying very much at all for HD because the number of viewers of HD feeds in Europe is relatively low.
For F1 to be broadcast in HD, it would need a majority of the TV broadcasters to want it and I imagine many European broadcasters don't feel they have the audience to really justify paying for it.

We have seen that Bernie can be reasonable if he needs to be, but in this case he doesn't.

Care to explain to me how this argument then applies to the hours and hours of HD footage I watch from Le Mans over the weekend?



Scaff
 
Well that's true, but i can't remember the last time i saw a house without a dish on.
 
I didn't exactly shop around for my freeview HD box, but £100 bought me the crummiest Ferguson freeview HD box with precisely 0 GB of HDD space and 3 (count' em!) HD channels... still, it is doing a grand job for the World Cup so far 👍 The cheapest semi-decent box with a decent amount of hard drive space was nearer £300... Freesat boxes are cheaper, but as chromatic9 points out, you need a dish for that and installation is not free if you don't already have a dish...

I can't work out why F1 is dragging it's heels... 2012 seems like an eternity to wait for something that should arguably be available now. Heck, if the BBC can film Springwatch in HD (with a global audience of six), then surely F1 can make HD economically viable...
 
It's likely that with all current F1 broadcasters under contract, Bernie wants to wait until it's time for contract renewals before he can charge them more for the HD content.
 
I am quite surprised how far behind Europe in on HD. I mean you guys are ahead of us on internet having FiOS well before us, I would have thought you would have HD before us to. I mean my grandparents who are extremely technologically behind on a lot of things have 2 HDTV's.

But all that aside I'm quite surprised Bernie is saying this. if its the price for the cameras Im sure he can easily make that up by just charging an extra $1M to the next circuit who wants to have F1. Or even sign a deal with say HD Hero to have all of there cameras as the on board cameras of the cars. Make them the official HD camera of F1 or something and make an advertising deal to get the cameras for free, then all they have to do is buy the track cameras. There are quite a few options I'm sure he can use to off set the price aspect of this.

And as TheMoose said there is a supply and demand aspect to this. People aren't going to buy an HDTV for just a few things broadcast in HD, the more media that broadcasts in HD the more people will be willing to invest in an HDTV. And its not like once the signal is being broadcast in HD that everyone will be forced to upgrade there TV's people with standard TV's will still be able to watch the broad cast just not in wide screen.

Lets face facts Bernie is going to have to upgrade to HD soon or later so why not make the investment now so you have more time to recoup the costs and expand your media.

EDIT: And you Europeans seem to really know how to make something so simple as TV complicated with needing to buy these boxes on top of the TV you bought. America is simple, Buy your TV call your cable or sat provider and your done they give you the box for free.
 
Care to explain to me how this argument then applies to the hours and hours of HD footage I watch from Le Mans over the weekend?
Scaff

Well the first thing that springs to mind is that Le Mans is one event, you don't need to be shipping the HD cameras everywhere like you do with F1.
But I don't know a whole lot about the real costs involved for filming in HD, only that whenever the topic is brought up Bernie always says "if the TV broadcasters are willing to pay, we will have HD".
Clearly FOM are interested in it, as they have run several T-cams with HD cameras last year at select races. So I just assume the broadcasters are not interested in paying much more for it than SDTV broadcasts.
 
Well the first thing that springs to mind is that Le Mans is one event, you don't need to be shipping the HD cameras everywhere like you do with F1.
And the Le Mans series races they have shown in HD?

Not to mention that the outlay for covering the entire circuit at Le Mans is equal to that of a number of F1 circuits combined, not to mention they have to deal with shooting around the clock.



But I don't know a whole lot about the real costs involved for filming in HD, only that whenever the topic is brought up Bernie always says "if the TV broadcasters are willing to pay, we will have HD".
Clearly FOM are interested in it, as they have run several T-cams with HD cameras last year at select races. So I just assume the broadcasters are not interested in paying much more for it than SDTV broadcasts.
Or they are not interested in what Bernie want to charge for HD filming rights for F1.

That I strongly suspect is far, far more likely, particularly given the grip he has over TV licensing rights
for the sport.


EDIT: And you Europeans seem to really know how to make something so simple as TV complicated with needing to buy these boxes on top of the TV you bought. America is simple, Buy your TV call your cable or sat provider and your done they give you the box for free.
Actually it is just as easy in most of Europe, not to mention that a lot of new HDTV's have built in Freesat HD, simply wire it into a Satellite dish and away you go free HDTV (yes I know FreeSat has a very limited range of HD channels - but that does not change the fact that it is that easy).




Regards

Scaff
 
Or they are not interested in what Bernie want to charge for HD filming rights for F1.

That I strongly suspect is far, far more likely, particularly given the grip he has over TV licensing rights
for the sport.

Something tells me that Scaff, as ever, is bang on the money here.

C.
 
This blows. I hate SD. It sucks major donkey rods.

But, Bernie needs to figure out a way to make more money off HD before he thinks it's 'necessary' then so be it. The greedy bastard.
 
EDIT: And you Europeans seem to really know how to make something so simple as TV complicated with needing to buy these boxes on top of the TV you bought. America is simple, Buy your TV call your cable or sat provider and your done they give you the box for free.

They don't really "give" it to you, they are essentially loaning it to you for the extent of your business with them.

I'm really shocked at how stubborn they are being, F1 is basically the last major event to not be broadcast in HD. You would think a series that is known for technology would be a little more ahead on this front.
 
Jonathan Noble
Why F1 in HD will be worth the wait

Amid a clamour for High Definition Formula 1 coverage from fans, LG showed off both HD and 3D footage of the sport in Canada. Jonathan Noble explains why HD will have to wait until 2012 - and 3D rather longer

I saw the future last weekend – and it isn't quite up to it yet.

On the same weekend that Formula 1 began experimenting with filming the sport in 3D, one of the championship's corporate sponsors LG offered a glimpse to a select few media of what the next generation of F1 coverage could be like.

And while F1 in High Definition will be amazing when it happens, if you are holding out for the day when grands prix are broadcast in 3D, do not hold your breath.

There has long been a call by fans for F1 to follow the route adopted by many other sports and get grands prix broadcast in HD. In fact, it was top of the wish list put forward by fans in the recent F1 fan survey conducted by the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) in association with LG and F1 Racing.

LG is well aware of the HD push, and it has already done some proper HD filming, when it took a camera crew to last year's Monaco Grand Prix to capture some footage for in-store promotional material.

The extreme demands of filming F1 in HD scuppered the plans initially, however, when the vibrations and noise in the tunnel resulted in the hard drives in the cameras skipping – so lots of frames went missing and the footage was useless. LG had to fly out solid state drives as a matter of urgency.

The result of the hours of footage captured was a three-minute advert that is now being displayed in electrical stores worldwide. LG showed this footage off on one of its state-of-the-art 1080P televisions in Montreal - and it was breathtaking.

The colours were vibrant, the cars and action crystal clear, the detail amazing – you could see bits of rubber flying off the tyres, and amazing deflection of carbon fibre parts as the cars bashed over kerbs.

When HD comes it will be fantastic, but the move from standard definition coverage to HD is far from a simple one – for it is not just a matter of switching Bernie's cameras to HD and fans turning on crystal clear images back at home.

The switchover to HD will involve investment from broadcasters – very few of whom have enough subscribers for HD feed to justify such costs.

Andrew Barratt, who is vice-president of global marketing properties for LG, says he is always asked why he doesn't push harder for HD – and his response is always the same: there are incredible complications in making the switch.

"People say to me, 'you're selling the TVs why are you not pushing harder for F1 to be shot in HD?'" he explained. "I would have asked the same thing before I started working with F1 and I discovered very early on, particularly in Monaco, that it is not as easy as I would have thought to bring that to life.

"Not only it is difficult from the technological point of view to shot around such fast moving cars with all the noise – you also have to consider the number of cameras that exist.

"There is also the question of bandwidth and how this has to upload around the world, with all the satellites.

"Plus, at the end of the day, only five per cent of subscribers actually buy an HD signal. In some countries it is up to 30-40 per cent, but for the most part people buy one of these HD sets, plug it in, then say, 'I have HD' – but they don't actually buy the signal. It is a really complex world. It is the monitors and the signal coming into the house."

During the event Ecclestone predicted 2012 as being when F1 can make the switch to HD – something that Barratt thinks is about right.

"It is an interesting tipping point, and we haven't seen it tip over yet," said Barratt. "None of us in F1 are responsible for that in some ways, because it is the nature of economics. A lot of the broadcasters have incredible expense providing all this content in HD.

"If the pipe you send the data through for a regular broadcast is the equivalent of a straw, then HD is like a drainpipe of information. There is a lot of expense for building the studios, the editing suites, and the broadcast facilities."

Bernie Ecclestone was at the LG event and made it clear that, if the demand from broadcasters was there, then the sport could switch its coverage tomorrow – and he would be willing to invest the money to upgrade all F1's cameras to HD.

But too small a percentage of fans at home are actually able to watch true HD – making it not economically viable.

"We don't want to broadcast unless people want it. I asked in England, the BBC, about it – how many people can receive it?" said Ecclestone. "They said about 20 per cent of the viewers who watch F1. Then I want to make sure that what we produce is top quality. So many people are saying the future is 3D. It is not 3D at all. It is one-and-a-half D.

"I don't think the average public realise that it is not the television, they have to have something to receive it as well. It is like producing a colour signal when people only have black-and-white sets."

While F1 is still to make the switch to HD, other sports are already trialling 3D – with this year's football World Cup final set to be the first to be broadcast in such a way.

LG started experimenting with its own 3D trials in Canada – with cameras situated trackside and in the pits/paddock, plus on-board footage captured from the Virgin Racing and Lotus cars during Friday free practice.

But while the presence of the 3D cameras got the paddock abuzz about the possibility of F1 going that route soon, the message from LG is that unless the technology improves dramatically in the next years, it could take an age to happen – if at all.

Barratt pointed out that while HD cameras can be pulled out of travel bags and start filming trackside in a matter of minutes, a 3D camera can take six men more than one hour to just assemble.

Furthermore, just to point out the difficulties, 3D cameras at the moment do not have the capability to focus manually – it can only be done with a tape measure from a set distance. So if a car is just one metre off-line, the 3D footage will be totally out of focus – which isn't much use for a fast-paced sport like F1.

"I think the move from SD to HD is a very small step because the camera functionality and technology is relatively similar, you are just dealing with a lot more data with the image," said Barratt.

"When you move to 3D it is a completely different world, because it involves very different technology, very different camera skills, and it is a completely different art form that is going to take a while for people to perfect. At the speeds of F1 it is going to be a very complex task.

"Some day it will come, but the cameras have to come first and then I think the sports coverage can come second. Then remember that F1 has different cameras in F1 compared to other sports."

LG showed off some early 3D footage that Virgin Racing had captured during Jerez testing early this year, and the results were not that fantastic.

Using the latest 3D glasses and a new state-of-the-art LG 3D set, there were times – especially during tracking shots when the car was coming towards the camera – that it looked everything you would hope it could be.

But most of the time, especially when the car was moving at speed, the footage seemed out of focus – and the definition even seemed much less than the crystal clear 1080P version.

Barratt also showed off an on-board lap filmed by FOM on a Brawn GP car in Abu Dhabi last year, and while interesting, it was not the fantastic experience that would make it an absolute must for racing fans.

Ultimately, 3D works much better with animation – where the images can be doctored and utilised in a way to truly show off the extra dimension. It could well be the future of gaming well before live F1 becomes a possibility.

"This is the gimmick," Barratt said about 3D. "In the real world it is still going to be HD for a long time. There were an awful lot of black and white TVs before it switched to colour, but 3D is the dream of the consumer.

"3D though is a long time off, and maybe never, there are a lot of hurdles to cross to make it happen."

Ecclestone himself is equally sceptical.

"I don't believe in the 3D," he said, having watched the Virgin Racing footage. "You'll be running around your house saying, 'who has got the glasses?' Even when you get a set where you can watch it without them, you have to sit bang right in front of it."

Forget 3D for now. Let's bring on the HD.

http://www.autosport.com/features/article.php/id/2875
 
A bit naughty posting subscription content there Roo but anyway thanks. 👍
I think that clears up the reasoning then and backs up Bernie.
 
Interesting read, but they seem to be missing an important factor. If broadcasters were to broadcast something worth watching in HD then punters would be much more inclined to subscribe to HD services. I'm sure HD subscriptions and sales of Freeview/Freesat HD decoders have sky-rocketed in the build-up to the World Cup. If the BBC and FOTA were to say "We'll start broadcasting F1 in HD for the 2011 season" then i'm sure the same would happen. If you build it, they will come.

I bought my first proper full HD TV around the start of this 2010 F1 season. If the BBC had been showing F1 in HD this year, i'd have upgraded to Sky+ HD straight away. As it stands, there's not enough shown in HD as it is that interests me enough to warrant the extra expense. I'm not a big footy fan and have no wish to watch Britain's Got Talent whether it's in HD or B/W. For the extra in monthly subscriptions i'd be paying, i can rent myself as many Blu-rays as i could feasibly watch, so HD films don't tip the balance either. F1 is the only thing that would swing it for me at the moment.

Bernie isn't even saying it's definite for 2012, just a likely date! :rolleyes:
 
Agree 100%....why would anyone buy an HD TV when there's no content in HD? No wonder adoption is stuck at 20%...and I bet you that almost 100% of those with HD in Europe are watching the WC in HD.

But I don't think this is something Bernie couldn't figure out himself; it's just that, like I said, he's after the money.
 
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