No More No-ABS Racing.

[cabeleira]

Take the Nürburgring 24h race as an example:

Every car used ABS in the 2011 race even in the highest classes. Manthey Racing Porsche 997 GT3 RSR finished 1st with ABS. Saying that switching the ABS off is more realistic is not necesseraly true. You would be suprised how many popular racing-series allow "helpers" like ABS.

I would keep ABS on 1 for the best overall performance.

 

[OK8]

however you'll likely never be able to out-brake someone into a turn without locking them up.

Just yesterday I pulled a magnificient out braking maneuvre without abs on the nordschleife. I did lock up a bit but I held the inside line and took first place without contact! 👍

With the little puffs of smoke it even looked so flamboyant I might make a video out of the race.

Besides if so many people didn't use the ridiculous abs, out braking would happen much more often.

It's not faster for sure but I keep it off because it keeps the drive more exciting for me.

👍👍👍👍

...And as Exorcet pointed out, even the quickest drivers, all things being equal, are generally a bit slower without ABS. So it's only fair if the field is level.

I never use ABS and I've never felt at a disadvantage. If anything it levels the field a bit since often I find it hard to find a balanced race.

Ahh, no we're getting to the heart of the matter. I've said this before in another thread. ABS, at least in this game, does more than just slow the car down. It acts as a form of stability control under braking. And indeed, a lot of GT players simply put ABS at 1 and smash the brake pedal (or button) to the floor at every corner they approach. If one would attempt to drive like this in a real car at a real track, you'd likely go shooting through the braking zone at full lock up, or spinning around, flying off the course. And that is EXACTLY what happens if you turn ABS OFF in GT5. It adds an element of realism to the game and makes it that much more challenging, and in my view, fun. When ABS is off, it forces you to rethink all of your braking points. It makes you reconsidering your lines into certain corners. And you have to manage balance and weight transfer that you may have never considered when ABS was turned on. You can't just make banzai moves on another car.

Totally agree with you 👍. With ABS on, the only way you can "fail" braking is to miss your braking point (and even if you miss it, just keep your foot floored and turn in, works every time ) but with abs off you're balancing it on the limit even while braking and I love that.

Seriously, all you need to do to get a totally new element to driving is turn abs off, turn brake balance to 4:1 and pump the brake pedal under hard braking slightly. When you see the revs drop and hear skidding move your foot up a notch and then back down again and keep repeating that quickly. Happens to me almost automatically since I do heel and toe at the same time

 

[Exorcet]

Well with an FF car and ABS off I'm a lot faster than with ABS on, so there you go... Other drivetrains are pretty equal. You just need to set right brake balance (4/3 or 4/2) and practice a bit to get the right feel to braking. You can't just slam the brakes to the floor with ABS off.

I have some experience with ABS off and ABS on. Neither lets you get away with just slamming the brakes if you want to be as fast as possible, but ABS on lets you overstep the limit of grip, so you can stay on the limit for maximum stopping power without fear of losing the car is accidentally exceed the limit. There's also the stabilizing property of ABS.

Still, if you say you're faster with it off, who am I to say you're not. I guess it might need to be tested.

 

[Lambob]

If you race on a track that rarely requires braking, other than to flick your speed and stability into check, one can totally drive without ABS, but yeah, it requires a total re-learn and balance adjuster car/track/tire/suspension/damper/decel/chassis welding joints/spectator and hotdog vendor stands/controller dependant.

is it worth the investment?

I require my Lambos to be ABS free. I need that snap that ABS doesn't give. & comon, people, do you need your FIAT to have ABS? and traction control?

 

[stig's helmet]

So laptimes I see posted at the nurburgring....all these brilliant times...and the GT-R trophy included...are they at ABS:1 or is it completely off?

 

[Bien Cien]

I've mostly kept ABS on a 1. Pretty much in everything except a fully tuned Gallardo LP-570. For some odd reason I had to crank up the ABS halfway because it would lock up faster than I could manage.

As far as my brake setups go, I use a 5/5 ratio for most, 5/6 on FR,MR and a 6/5 on FF and 4WD.

Lately I've come to realize that I always brake later than I need to. Perhaps it's time to decrease those numbers then.

 

[Sohvakettu]

Take the Nürburgring 24h race as an example:

Every car used ABS in the 2011 race even in the highest classes. Manthey Racing Porsche 997 GT3 RSR finished 1st with ABS. Saying that switching the ABS off is more realistic is not necesseraly true. You would be suprised how many popular racing-series allow "helpers" like ABS.

I would keep ABS on 1 for the best overall performance.

Use of ABS depends on regulations of the race/class. Nürburgring 24h is a semi amateur race so it's not surprising that they allow ABS. Also the highest calss of cars there is about FIA GT3 range. GT1 and Super GT have banned ABS for example. (Not sure about GT300 class in Super GT, as those are often driven by "gentleman racers" too.)

 

[Bobalob]

Anyone racing irl with abs on is boring/old/a fool

 

[CSLACR]

Well, I generally keep ABS at 1 for road cars that use ABS by nature. And it's true, you don't have the same level of feedback like in a real car. But one could make that argument run in circles for anything. 90* turns are tough in simulations because you don't have centrifugal forces on your body. Same thing with loss of lateral grip. But that doesn't stop us from driving through corners. But there are other reasons. Read on.

Fair enough.
But if it doesn't add realism, what's the point?

And while my abs-less experience in GT5 is very limited, it's significantly harder to control compared to turning tcs off, for example, or cornering.
It at least seems easier to get a feel for cornering, I assume because you can use speed, steering, wheel feedback, and throttle positions all to judge, whereas braking is just pushing a pedal without resistance until you see smoke. There is no brake feedback with a DFGT.

Basically what I've seen is learning to drive GT5 without ABS is more pedal placement memorization than anything.

 

[HKS racer]

Fair enough.
But if it doesn't add realism, what's the point?

And while my abs-less experience in GT5 is very limited, it's significantly harder to control compared to turning tcs off, for example, or cornering.
It at least seems easier to get a feel for cornering, I assume because you can use speed, steering, wheel feedback, and throttle positions all to judge, whereas braking is just pushing a pedal without resistance until you see smoke. There is no brake feedback with a DFGT.

Basically what I've seen is learning to drive GT5 without ABS is more pedal placement memorization than anything.

Well you are right there is no feedback but offline could be something new to do, I always used ABS 1 but I feel the braking is really too easy compared to other sims, It could be a way to have some more fun once you learned it. I tried to turn it off a couple of times but I've experienced too many tyres lock up. I'll give another go in these days let's see what happen.

 

[BradKinder]

I tend to keep my "brake balance" at x/x. At x/x the brakes seem to perform normally, with the fronts grabbing more than the rears. ABS off, of course. ABS on at any level prevents a driver from braking the hardest.

Usually, I'll set it somewhere from 1/1 to 4/4 depending on which car, the tires used, and what tire wear is set to. Stickier tires means I need the brakes to be stronger.

I use a dual shock 3 and got all 60 license golds.

 

[jjaisli]

Fair enough.
But if it doesn't add realism, what's the point?

And while my abs-less experience in GT5 is very limited, it's significantly harder to control compared to turning tcs off, for example, or cornering.
It at least seems easier to get a feel for cornering, I assume because you can use speed, steering, wheel feedback, and throttle positions all to judge, whereas braking is just pushing a pedal without resistance until you see smoke. There is no brake feedback with a DFGT.

Basically what I've seen is learning to drive GT5 without ABS is more pedal placement memorization than anything.

Well you are right there is no feedback but offline could be something new to do, I always used ABS 1 but I feel the braking is really too easy compared to other sims, It could be a way to have some more fun once you learned it. I tried to turn it off a couple of times but I've experienced too many tyres lock up. I'll give another go in these days let's see what happen.

But it DOES add realism CSLACR. It adds realism if you're racing say, a 1965 Alfa TZ2, which doesn't have ABS in real life and you slam on the brakes entering an off-camber corner, the car is going to go sideways. Turn ABS on, something the real car doesn't have, and it's going to be a nice, tame, little bunny.

Is it harder to control than not using TCS? I don't know. Maybe. I think it's just become such an accepted standard here on GTP and in the GT community to set ABS on 1 that people make it out to be more than it really is.

Either way, although I use a G27, not a DFGT, I believe you're both wrong. I can immediately tell when I've locked up because:
1) The steering (FFB) goes limp. Or it certainly does when locking up the front.
2) The revs drop and if I'm using the h-pattern shifter the car will stall and shut off.
3) Others in my group who use a DFGT have told me they experience the same thing.

Try it again. Drive in the wet, with traction set to "real" and not low, set the brake bias to maybe, 3/0 and tell me if you can't feel you've locked up through the wheel. Granted, if you're going perfectly straight and brake in a straight line, it might be tricky, but if you do this in an actual braking zone, I'm sure you'll notice it.

 

[AssassinTuner]

But it DOES add realism CSLACR. It adds realism if you're racing say, a 1965 Alfa TZ2, which doesn't have ABS in real life and you slam on the brakes entering an off-camber corner, the car is going to go sideways. Turn ABS on, something the real car doesn't have, and it's going to be a nice, tame, little bunny.

Is it harder to control than not using TCS? I don't know. Maybe. I think it's just become such an accepted standard here on GTP and in the GT community to set ABS on 1 that people make it out to be more than it really is.

Either way, although I use a G27, not a DFGT, I believe you're both wrong. I can immediately tell when I've locked up because:
1) The steering (FFB) goes limp. Or it certainly does when locking up the front.
2) The revs drop and if I'm using the h-pattern shifter the car will stall and shut off.
3) Others in my group who use a DFGT have told me they experience the same thing.

Try it again. Drive in the wet, with traction set to "real" and not low, set the brake bias to maybe, 3/0 and tell me if you can't feel you've locked up through the wheel. Granted, if you're going perfectly straight and brake in a straight line, it might be tricky, but if you do this in an actual braking zone, I'm sure you'll notice it.

I agree. It was weird at first. I thought for a while PD had just fubared the braking physics. Once you get the feel for it its so much more satisfying. There are actually a few FFB sensations relayed, the previously mentioned dead feel, and on hard lock ups you feel the wheel chatter. With a proper brake set up you can get into the brakes with much more intent then you would think.

ABS-1 has been too accepted at GTP as "assist free". ABS is an assist, only with it and all other assist off are we truely assist free driving.

 

[Rods_Ramone]

Bobalob
Anyone racing irl with abs on is boring/old/a foo

So, can u possibly enlighten us, merely human beens no capable to have a glance of a real racercar, with your statement to prove your what you say regard of abs.
This system, in real life proposes, has the finality to assist drivers in a accident, for instance. If you are a professional driver, and I suppose so, you could give a word or two about the matter. But if you are not, you better read a bit more about the subject of the thread, and then states something useful.
And, I just want to know what is the criteria of moderators use to close threads, if it is included sillyness, lack of importance and quality of what is written.
Why 99% of this whole forum thinks that irl issues applies in gt? Or, why everybody thinks that could turn to pro racers by only playing gt? It's game, for God's sake!

 

[OK8]

If the DFP has as numb pedals as my older wheel did (logitech driving force EX) I can't blame you for not wanting to learn pedal control that precise, but with the G25 the spring is so strong you can easily pump it even with force and you'll still stay within the limit.

And I agree, ABS is an aid as much as the others. If the game had a real ABS light flickering to indicate the ABS working (like LFS for instance, LFS's ABS is very realistic) and if it did work like in real life (as it doesn't, discussed earlier) it'd be alright and I guess non abs driving and ABS driving would be balanced. I'm not saying they aren't now, the only difference I've found was in the Yellowbird sports hard challenge thread where username yellowbird beat me by a second and the only difference was he was using ABS. I'm not saying it's 100% because he was using ABS but it's the first time someone's been faster than me and I've even considered it was a result of ABS.

I doubt the Yellowbird has ABS in real life, does anyone know?

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

But it DOES add realism CSLACR. It adds realism if you're racing say, a 1965 Alfa TZ2, which doesn't have ABS in real life and you slam on the brakes entering an off-camber corner, the car is going to go sideways. Turn ABS on, something the real car doesn't have, and it's going to be a nice, tame, little bunny.

Is it harder to control than not using TCS? I don't know. Maybe. I think it's just become such an accepted standard here on GTP and in the GT community to set ABS on 1 that people make it out to be more than it really is.

Either way, although I use a G27, not a DFGT, I believe you're both wrong. I can immediately tell when I've locked up because:
1) The steering (FFB) goes limp. Or it certainly does when locking up the front.
2) The revs drop and if I'm using the h-pattern shifter the car will stall and shut off.
3) Others in my group who use a DFGT have told me they experience the same thing.

Try it again. Drive in the wet, with traction set to "real" and not low, set the brake bias to maybe, 3/0 and tell me if you can't feel you've locked up through the wheel. Granted, if you're going perfectly straight and brake in a straight line, it might be tricky, but if you do this in an actual braking zone, I'm sure you'll notice it.

I totally agree. I don't know why people think abs on isn't an aid even IRL racing. Isn't one of the main keys of racing is to out brake your opponent? I don't know if Abs=1 is any more realistic (I serious doubt it) than abs off but Abs off does seems to more skill ( practice time) to out brake an opponent than with abs on.

 

[AssassinTuner]

If the DFP has as numb pedals as my older wheel did (logitech driving force EX) I can't blame you for not wanting to learn pedal control that precise, but with the G25 the spring is so strong you can easily pump it even with force and you'll still stay within the limit.

And I agree, ABS is an aid as much as the others. If the game had a real ABS light flickering to indicate the ABS working (like LFS for instance, LFS's ABS is very realistic) and if it did work like in real life (as it doesn't, discussed earlier) it'd be alright and I guess non abs driving and ABS driving would be balanced. I'm not saying they aren't now, the only difference I've found was in the Yellowbird sports hard challenge thread where username yellowbird beat me by a second and the only difference was he was using ABS. I'm not saying it's 100% because he was using ABS but it's the first time someone's been faster than me and I've even considered it was a result of ABS.

I doubt the Yellowbird has ABS in real life, does anyone know?

Umm yeah, ill bet it was the ABS. People have found was to abuse the retarded GT ABS system to generally gain arround a second or so over using no ABS.

I'm having issues finding 0 ABS lap times to compare my times to. I have a FF car tuned to run sub 7min at the Nurb. 0 ABS I hit 7:04, with it on, Sub 7.

The Yellow Bird has no clue what ABS is.

BTW ABS free driving on a DFGT.

 

[BWX]

Anyone with a G25 or G27 needs to check out this video.

I think it will make a big difference to whether or not you can run without ABS or not with these pedals. I know with my G25 I have to mod it and stiffen up the brake pedal quite a bit to be consistent at braking without ABS. But I think this new mod will be better than what I did to my pedals anyway, and much better than default pedal spring for sure.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwKKzSDlaz0

 

[tribolik]

Every professional FIA race championship does not allow ABS. except for semi professional/amateur races like GT3 and 24h Ring... from F1 to DTM to GT1 to Super GT to ALMS to LMP - you name it no ABS - Im not a top gamer but I do enjoy driving with it off and ocasionaly locking up and seing smoke coming out the wheels in the replays it feels a lot more real as so do Racing Hard tires... but thats just me... I dont try to be fast I just try to enjoy myself... If Im pretending to be a professional race driver I cant see the point of using ABS... If I want the car to drive unrealistic them Ill try a NFS game.

TCS - right foot ABS - left foot

 

[photonrider]

Anyone racing irl with abs on is boring/old/a fool

Does this mean your post is 'interesting/young/wise' ?

Growing old isn't an option. You will get there. Tomorrow. And the day after. Surely the next year. Hopely you stay alive to see that.

As for 'boring' and 'foolish' - these are options you can exercise right now. Within the AUP, of course.

However - I do agree with you that having ABS on in real life racing seems somewhat counter-intuitive. After all we want to race the cars - not have the cars race themselves.

But GT5 is a GAME!! A video game. NOT reality. Read the quarter-second blurb at the beginning of the game where it states that the cars in the game have 'NOTHING' whatsoever to do with the real thing.

Kaz did a good job of fooling us though, didn't he?

I drive with all assists off. Yet, there are times I may play with the assists since I like to PLAY with the cars.

That's right. I play GT5.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

GT5 is a GAME!! A video game. NOT reality. Read the quarter-second blurb at the beginning of the game where it states that the cars in the game have 'NOTHING' whatsoever to do with the real thing.

Kaz did a good job of fooling us though, didn't he?

I drive with all assists off. Yet, there are times I may play with the assists since I like to PLAY with the cars.

That's right. I play GT5.

Totally agree. I don't care if ABS 1 is more realistic or not. It makes the game more fun and enjoyable for me and that's all that matters.

 

[jacnob]

I must say, the two posts above mine are the only ones who actually HAVE common sense and ACTUALLY understand.

 

[Bobalob]

So, can u possibly enlighten us, merely human beens no capable to have a glance of a real racercar, with your statement to prove your what you say regard of abs.
This system, in real life proposes, has the finality to assist drivers in a accident, for instance. If you are a professional driver, and I suppose so, you could give a word or two about the matter. But if you are not, you better read a bit more about the subject of the thread, and then states something useful.
And, I just want to know what is the criteria of moderators use to close threads, if it is included sillyness, lack of importance and quality of what is written.
Why 99% of this whole forum thinks that irl issues applies in gt? Or, why everybody thinks that could turn to pro racers by only playing gt? It's game, for God's sake!

People simply don't race with abs as a first rule, it's been a fact since it was invented.

 

[Bobalob]

Does this mean your post is 'interesting/young/wise' ?

Growing old isn't an option. You will get there. Tomorrow. And the day after. Surely the next year. Hopely you stay alive to see that.

As for 'boring' and 'foolish' - these are options you can exercise right now. Within the AUP, of course.

However - I do agree with you that having ABS on in real life racing seems somewhat counter-intuitive. After all we want to race the cars - not have the cars race themselves.

But GT5 is a GAME!! A video game. NOT reality. Read the quarter-second blurb at the beginning of the game where it states that the cars in the game have 'NOTHING' whatsoever to do with the real thing.

Kaz did a good job of fooling us though, didn't he?

I drive with all assists off. Yet, there are times I may play with the assists since I like to PLAY with the cars.

That's right. I play GT5.

Growing old certainly isn't an option however pathetic personal assumptions are sadly, I have a daughter and little time for these poorly placed efforts thankyou.

My post was short, sweet and accurate.

You also seem to have missed an earlier post on which I said I use abs 1 because it doesn't behave like real abs.

also the "GAME" I "play it" argument is a bit of a waste of time, noone would be here withought "PLAYING" the "GAME" and I didn't need a blurb to remind me.

And I'm giving my opinions on abs m8, not you, don't take it personally.

 

[stig's helmet]

No ABs is doing my nut in...I'm going back to ABS 1. I'll lose realism but gain fun.

 

[BradLTL]

I run a race league that requires no ABS. ABS = No Skill. Out braking someone into a corner without any aids and without locking up and sliding through the corner... that shows talent.

Also, top tier race cars don't use ABS... watch F1.

 

[Obsidian-2]

I run a race league that requires no ABS. ABS = No Skill. Out braking someone into a corner without any aids and without locking up and sliding through the corner... that shows talent.

Also, top tier race cars don't use ABS... watch F1.

It would show talent if GT5 had realistic braking pressure and force feedback ... but it does not, so the "talent" is in guessing how much pedal or button movement to apply. Braking in a real car is completely different from GT5. It's probably the most unrealistic thing in the game actually. Therefore, just because F1 does not use ABS does not mean GT5 is closer to that reality than with it on.

How exactly are you enforcing that "ABS off" rule in your league since it's the only "aid" you can't disable in online lobbies?

 

[SkateNj]

i learned how to drive no ABS in forza
cause in the game it would give you 100 percent extra cash for no assists
so i dont need anything

 

[zevehcj]

Playing without ABS isn't impossible. I use the old school GT/GT2 control scheme (X=gas, square=brake, d-pad=steering). I found playing with ABS on 1 so easy (to me) that I had to turn it off on my very first race of GT5.
You guys should definitely try to play with it off. Just don't slam on the brakes. Adjust your braking point accordingly, tap the brakes (use 25% - 60%) and make sure you achieve the corner entry speed before the turn (to avoid the need to brake during the turn). You'll be set after a few laps. Have fun.

 

[newbielives]

I plan to drive the real life Nurburgring some time in the future and want to be use to braking in a straight line, instead of relying on the ABS system to bake for me through a corner. This is why I only race with ABS off unless I'm using a car where I can't change the brake bias eg in arcade mode using cars I don't already own