No More Spa Francorchamps ??

[Grand Prix]

I'd be fine with Magny-Cours. But why not Pau? That was a great track, by unfortunately it seems like it has died out. The WTCC isn't goin there anymore. Just lower ladder single seaters.

Great, insane track, but a bit difficult to pass on, more so than Monaco in fact. I'd love to see Rouen or Clermont-Ferrand be used, but those are just as likely.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Spa and that's my last post in here.

One circuit, and it is well documented that their problems stemmed from the legal status of tobacco advertising in Belgium.

I do not like angry reactions for no reason.

And I don't like it when people try talking about things they clearly do not understand. You suggested that Silverstone has had money troubles in the past - they haven't. Silverstone is actually one of the best-performing circuits when it comes to making a profit. They were removed from the calendar because their pits were falling apart and they kept delaying the promised upgrades. Bernie finally lost his patience with them, and removed them for it.

 

[Korza]

And I don't like it when people try talking about things they clearly do not understand. You suggested that Silverstone has had money troubles in the past - they haven't. Silverstone is actually one of the best-performing circuits when it comes to making a profit. They were removed from the calendar because their pits were falling apart and they kept delaying the promised upgrades. Bernie finally lost his patience with them, and removed them for it.

So then, as I asked earlier, why did the BRDC sell of a fair chunk of the Silverstone estate a few years ago in order to make some money?

 

[peter_vod69]

Great, insane track, but a bit difficult to pass on, more so than Monaco in fact. I'd love to see Rouen or Clermont-Ferrand be used, but those are just as likely.

Yeah, unfortunately there is no way Pau or any of those other classics could ever be used again, the FIA turn a blind eye to Monaco's safety issues because of the Prestige and History associated with the event.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So then, as I asked earlier, why did the BRDC sell of a fair chunk of the Silverstone estate a few years ago in order to make some money?

The British Grand Prix is unique in that is it one of only two events on the calendar (the other being India) that receives no government support. If the BRDC sold off a portion of the estate, it was probably to fund the new pit building, which the circuit desperately needed. When Bernie took the British Grand Prix to Donington Park, the Silverstone pits were worse than Interlagos'. He didn't want them to invest in building a fancy new corporate entertainment suite for sponsors and guests - he wanted them to pull their finger out and make good on their promise to build new pit facilities because the existing ones were held up with luck more than by any feat of engineering. The BRDC had promised it years beforehand, but never got around to building it. They kept putting it off. When things get to the point where teams have to bring their own floors to the circuit so that they can actually work in the garages, can anyboy really blame Bernie for taking the race away from Silverstone?

 

[MarcoM]

One circuit, and it is well documented that their problems stemmed from the legal status of tobacco advertising in Belgium.


And I don't like it when people try talking about things they clearly do not understand. You suggested that Silverstone has had money troubles in the past - they haven't. Silverstone is actually one of the best-performing circuits when it comes to making a profit. They were removed from the calendar because their pits were falling apart and they kept delaying the promised upgrades. Bernie finally lost his patience with them, and removed them for it.

You asked to name a circuit. I did that. It does not matter where the money problems come from. That is irrelevant. They are there.

And do you really think a pits that is falling apart does not reflect money problems at a certain stage?

Off topic: the way you respond indictates you have a serious attitude problem. I suggest you work on that. You are young enough to still change it.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You asked to name a circuit. I did that. It does not matter where the money problems come from. That is irrelevant. They are there.

Are you being intentionally dense? I asked you to name a circuit that was having regular money problems before the recession, money problems that threatened the continued existence of that circuit being on the calendar.

And do you really think a pits that is falling apart does not reflect money problems at a certain stage?

At the time, the BRDC was more interested in the history of the British Grand Prix than its future. They assumed that because the race had been on the calendar for sixty years, and because Silverstone had been the venue of choice for most of that time, then the British Grand Prix would always be held at Silverstone. They saw no need to upgrade their facilities, even though the teams regularly complained about how bad they were.

It had nothing to do with money, and everything to do with the BRDC's hubris.

 

[Tornado]

Are you being intentionally dense?

Here we go again.

I asked you to name a circuit that was having regular money problems before the recession, money problems that threatened the continued existence of that circuit being on the calendar.

Of which Silverstone could very easily be argued to be an example of one, no matter how pissy you want to get because people won't take your word as law. They couldn't afford to rebuild the pit facilities as Bernie kept demanding them to (and, yes, I understand that they absolutely needed to be done, before you jump in with that). They couldn't afford to pay the original hosting fee that Bernie demanded from them (which is what directly led to the whole Donnington Park fiasco). They couldn't get Bernie to change his terms whatsoever based on the history of the circuit in Formula 1 like he didn't even pretend to hide doing for two other tracks on the calender. They couldn't do these things before Bernie eventually grew tired of waiting, so the circuit was in no uncertain terms removed from the calender and replaced with Donnington. The fact that they had to quickly sell off portions of the estate in order to raise the capital in time to make those improvements that were required for the deal kinda makes that obvious.



So I'm going to ask you something: Ignore your long and storied personal vendetta against the BRDC. Ignore how you've said before that track heritage means nothing to the sport from a business/financial perspective (even though it seems obvious to me that the only reason the BRDC kept saying it was important was so they get the same preferred treatment that Bernie admitted Monza and Monaco do). Simply answer this: How does a circuit being pressured for years to do something they said they couldn't afford to do (upgrade their pit facilities) under threat of being removed from the calender (and ultimately being removed from the calender for it) by Bernie not that "money problems that threatened the continued existence of that circuit being on the calendar"?

 

[nitrorocks]

Yeah, unfortunately there is no way Pau or any of those other classics could ever be used again, the FIA turn a blind eye to Monaco's safety issues because of the Prestige and History associated with the event.

Pau is one of my all time favorite tracks, but it might be a little to tight for F1.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

They couldn't afford to rebuild the pit facilities as Bernie kept demanding them to (and, yes, I understand that they absolutely needed to be done, before you jump in with that).

Actually, they could afford it. They had been planning it for years, but kept putting it off. Despite all the complaints, they didn't think an upgrade was necessary. That was the BRDC's problem - they assumed that because the British Grand Prix had been at Silverstone for so long, it would always take place there. So they saw no need to spend the money.

 

[Tired Tyres]

They wanted an extended contract for the race before they committed to do it.

It was expensive and the BRDC needed the guarantee of income this would bring as they are independent of government finance and need to show a profit from the race.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

They wanted an extended contract for the race before they committed to do it.

And Bernie wanted them to commit before offering them a new contract. They had, after all, been putting the upgraded facilities off for years.

 

[MarcoM]

Thank you prisonermondkeys, you have just proven that it is about money. Either not having it, or not wanting to spend it = money problems.

Now why did it take you so long to come to that conclusion?

Oh well anyway, it's sorted now.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Thank you prisonermondkeys, you have just proven that it is about money. Either not having it, or not wanting to spend it = money problems.

No, it's not about money. The BRDC had the money to upgrade Silverstone's pits all along. They decided that they didn't want to spend it because at the time, they didn't think they needed to upgrade the pits. The money itself had not been taken from some other project, and then re-committed when the BRDC decided they didn't need to upgrade the pits. It was just sitting there, doing nothing except maybe earning interest. If anything, it was in their interests to spend it. The pits were, quite literally, falling apart. Like I said, teams had to bring their own floors just to complete a Grand Prix weekend simply because the existing floors were in no condition to be used as they were.

The problem here was the BRDC caring more about the history of the British Grand Prix than the future of it. They had the motive, the means and the opportunity to turn Silverstone into a world-class facility, and they still chose not to, for reasons that are probably known only to them. They pride themselves on being one of the best racing circuits in the world, and yet they didn't want to spend the money (which, again, was doing nothing) to actually make the circuit live up to that claim. In the end, Bernie had to take the race away from them just to convince them that they needed to upgrade the pits - something that they had been both planning and able to do for at least five years before they actually lost the race. Money has nothing to do with it. Idiocy was the BRDC's problem.

Now Bernie wants Montreal to upgrade their pits before he renews their contract, because the current ones are 25 years old. They desperately need it, too. Just watch how quickly the organisers agree to it, because they know their pits need work.

 

[Tired Tyres]

And Bernie wanted them to commit before offering them a new contract. They had, after all, been putting the upgraded facilities off for years.

No, it's not about money. The BRDC had the money to upgrade Silverstone's pits all along. They decided that they didn't want to spend it because at the time, they didn't think they needed to upgrade the pits. The money itself had not been taken from some other project, and then re-committed when the BRDC decided they didn't need to upgrade the pits. It was just sitting there, doing nothing except maybe earning interest. If anything, it was in their interests to spend it. The pits were, quite literally, falling apart. Like I said, teams had to bring their own floors just to complete a Grand Prix weekend simply because the existing floors were in no condition to be used as they were.

The problem here was the BRDC caring more about the history of the British Grand Prix than the future of it. They had the motive, the means and the opportunity to turn Silverstone into a world-class facility, and they still chose not to, for reasons that are probably known only to them. They pride themselves on being one of the best racing circuits in the world, and yet they didn't want to spend the money (which, again, was doing nothing) to actually make the circuit live up to that claim. In the end, Bernie had to take the race away from them just to convince them that they needed to upgrade the pits - something that they had been both planning and able to do for at least five years before they actually lost the race. Money has nothing to do with it. Idiocy was the BRDC's problem.

Now Bernie wants Montreal to upgrade their pits before he renews their contract, because the current ones are 25 years old. They desperately need it, too. Just watch how quickly the organisers agree to it, because they know their pits need work.

Get the contract first. Then do the work required. That is how the world works PM. Not the other way around.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Get the contract first. Then do the work required. That is how the world works PM. Not the other way around.

I'm aware of that - but in this case, it had to be the other way around. Bernie had gotten the BRDC to agree to upgrade the pits on more than one occasion before, only for them to turn around and change their minds about it. What guarantee would he have that they wouldn't do the same thing here?

All Bernie needed was some sign that things were going to happen before he offered them a contract. A feasibility study, perhaps. Something - anything - that would show that the BRDC were committed to the project after five years of dodging it. Sure, they don't want to spend much money without a contract, but feasibility studies and environmental impact statements and the like don't cost that much. If the BRDC did that, but then lost the rights to the race, then they'd only be a few thousand dollars out of pocket at the most, instead of the millions they might spend on building a new pit lane. And doing this sort of stuff before a contract is offered is not just a common practice. It's standard.

When it came time to re-negotiate Silverstone's contract in 2009, the BRDC didn't even offer Bernie that much. They wanted a contract to continue hosting the race. Bernie wanted them to upgrade their pit facilities. The BRDC had procrastinated on it for years, and Bernie clearly didn't trust them to keep their word (would you?). Yet they wanted the contract in-hand before they even committed so much as a pound to the project. All they had to do was give Bernie a sign that they would make good on their promises, and they would have gotten the contract the first time without breaking a sweat. Instead, the BRDC put the British Grand Prix in jeopardy because they refused to do what they had already promised to do five years earlier. And yet somehow, Bernie is the villain in all of this.

 

[Tornado]

The BRDC had the money to upgrade Silverstone's pits all along. They decided that they didn't want to spend it because at the time, they didn't think they needed to upgrade the pits. The money itself had not been taken from some other project, and then re-committed when the BRDC decided they didn't need to upgrade the pits. It was just sitting there, doing nothing except maybe earning interest. If anything, it was in their interests to spend it.

Again, the money that they mostly secured from selling off assets? That money?

The problem here was the BRDC caring more about the history of the British Grand Prix than the future of it.

Money has nothing to do with it.

Silverstone’s contract to host the British Grand Prix expires at the end of 2009 and commercial rights holder Bernie Ecclestone has said that he does not believe the Silverstone-owning British Racing Drivers’ Club (BRDC) can afford his fee to renew the contract.

Linky.

Which is likely the reason why the BRDC started hyping up the track's history like mad in the interim period, to try to get the same stuff Monza and Monaco get, which ultimately led to:

Ecclestone ruled out the prospect of Britain being given a discount rate, similar to those enjoyed by Monza and Monaco as the sport's "traditional" grands prix.

He added: "The contract they have is the contract we like. We are not prepared to charge less. Do we need a British Grand Prix? No."

Linky.

And on a somewhat related note:

"I am sorry that we could not have helped Silverstone to raise the money to carry out the circuit improvements and run F1," he said. "I believe that the government should have supported them, which would have cost probably less than .002% of the government's commitment for the Olympic Games."

Linky.

So where exactly was all this money that they apparently just had sitting around somewhere if even Bernie said that one of the problems was money?

All Bernie needed was some sign that things were going to happen before he offered them a contract. A feasibility study, perhaps. Something - anything - that would show that the BRDC were committed to the project after five years of dodging it. Sure, they don't want to spend much money without a contract, but feasibility studies and environmental impact statements and the like don't cost that much. If the BRDC did that, but then lost the rights to the race, then they'd only be a few thousand dollars out of pocket at the most, instead of the millions they might spend on building a new pit lane. And doing this sort of stuff before a contract is offered is not just a common practice. It's standard.

All they had to do was give Bernie a sign that they would make good on their promises, and they would have gotten the contract the first time without breaking a sweat.

Part of the reason behind the stalemate is that redevelopment is unlikely to begin until the commercial deal with Ecclestone is tied down, due in part to the financial risk involved of selling off land and assets to generate the revenue required. Ecclestone meanwhile has said he wants to see the redevelopment begin before a new contract can be agreed.

Linky.

A feasibility study, perhaps. Something - anything - that would show that the BRDC were committed to the project after five years of dodging it.

A £25m redevelopment of Silverstone, which could help secure the British Grand Prix's future, has been approved.

Members of the British Racing Drivers' Club, who own the Northamptonshire circuit, backed the ambitious scheme at an extraordinary general meeting.

It includes new grandstands, pit and paddock facilities, a science park, manufacturers' test centre, hotel and conference centre, plus new homes.

Linky.

Planning permission for a new £30 million pit-lane and paddock complex was approved in February – an achievement in itself given the intricacies of the English planning system and the fact that Silverstone borders three different counties.

Linky.

 

[bzking23]

i wonder why nobody has brought up Montherley circuit in france

 

[MarcoM]

1 Because there is no replacement for Spa.
2 Spa will have the GP untill at least 2015 http://www.nusport.nl/formule-1/2891462/f1-2015-spa-francorchamps.html