Normal vs. Sim steering?

Discussion in 'Forza Horizon 2' started by justchyllan, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. justchyllan

    justchyllan

    Messages:
    531
    Location:
    United States
    So I have been playing with a controller lately, my new living situation I don't have room for a setup. I realized that on Horizon I had been playing with normal steering and not sim. So I changed to sim and I don't notice any difference. Is there no difference with a controller? I haven't played FM4 with a controller a whole lot, and I only used sim on FM4 even with my controller so I don't know if the same happens on FM4.

    So is the difference only with a wheel? Because I definitely noticed the difference with a wheel on FM4.
     
  2. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,201
    Incredible! These normal vs sim steering discussions pop up every now and then on Forza forums, and I'd be glad to give my 2!

    You probably won't feel a significant difference in FH between the two, since the handling model has already been simplified, and the game runs at 30 fps. So using the sim setting may not be apparent right away. I'd suggest using it, in order to get the most realistic experience. I myself use a controller, always have. Also, if you're a smooth and calculating driver, you might want to set outside deadzone to max, and inside deadzone to 0. This goes for steering and throttle/brakes.

    In FM4, since the physics model is as true to life as possible, AND the game runs at 60 fps (that IMO makes a noticeable difference when we're talking about input and control), you will see the difference right away. But I won't go into great detail there, since you're already using the sim setting.

    Give the recommended deadzone settings a shot with the sim setting, and let me know how the feel is.

    Cheers
     
    jflomario likes this.
  3. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

    Messages:
    12,491
    Location:
    United States
    ^ Huh? On a controller, the only thing Simulation Steering does is make the steering response sharper and quicker. It doesn't change any physics, it doesn't eliminate the steering input filter you get on a controller, and it isn't any more realistic or "Simulation" than Normal. It's just a different steering model.

    The choice comes down to personal preference: zippy and responsive, or steady and precise. You can really feel the difference when oversteering mid- or rear-engined cars.
     
  4. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,201
    Nah, I never said sim steering changes the physics. I simply pointed out with sim steering control is more realistic.. as in, more accurate and cars behave more like they would when you steer them IRL. I was simply referring to input and control and how sim/normal influences that. Normal steering kind of makes it easier and more straight forward. A lot like it was back in FM3.

    Sim steering's the way to go, be it controller or wheel. Wish there was a way to turn off speed sensitive steering though.
     
  5. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

    Messages:
    12,491
    Location:
    United States
    When I steer my car IRL, I tend to be smooth and careful about it. Simulation is too eager and twitchy/nervous to suit my driving style; it messes me up because it cuts into countersteer too quickly. The extra "damping" on the steering angle in Normal allows me a finer level of precision. I don't always get the quickest reactions from the steering, but I get a better sense of the weight of the car and where it's shifting.

    Neither is more accurate or realistic, because the physics/limits are the same. It's just driving style. Everyone should try both.
     
    Speedster911 likes this.
  6. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,201
    You play with a controller, is that right?
     
  7. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

    Messages:
    12,491
    Location:
    United States
    Right. With a controller I think people should try Normal. On a wheel, I don't know exactly what difference the two modes make.
     
  8. hennessey86

    hennessey86

    Messages:
    1,470
    In forza 4 sim steering gives you full 900 degrees when counter steering where as normal gives you 270 degrees of counter steer making sim steering more true to life. It's definitely not as unforgiving in horizon.
     
  9. justchyllan

    justchyllan

    Messages:
    531
    Location:
    United States
    Hmm... When I used a wheel on FM4 I definitely noticed a difference. IMO sim steering was less realistic on high performance cars, made them feel like a boat at low speeds and you can flip at high speeds. It really came into its own in S class cars more like street cars. Additionally I used it when drifting because it felt more genuine and is a bit harder but offers more control. I never played FM4 with a controller long enough to have changed between the two and notice a difference. Just thought it was a bit odd when I didn't notice anything on Horizon so I figured maybe it only applied to a force feedback wheel.
     
  10. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,201
    So what you're saying is controller users should use normal by default? I usually use sim, and swear the cars feel more alive.

    In Horizon though, they've mentioned in the options that if you are on a controller, you should select normal. Wonder if the same analogy applies to FM4.
     
  11. saskman1950

    saskman1950

    Messages:
    608
    I've watched a few videos of Horizon and saw a lot of guys driving in fields. I'll be right at home, being as I drive of the track most of the time anyway, whether or not I'm in sim mode or normal with my controller.
     
  12. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

    Messages:
    12,491
    Location:
    United States
    Normal is like "low/normal sensitivity" steering, and Simulation is like "high sensitivity" steering. The cars feel more alive because the steering is twitchy. Simulation doesn't even remove gamepad-related control assists. It boosts and assists countersteer even more than Normal.
     
  13. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,201
    It boosts counter assists more than Normal? Are you sure, I mean can you back this up with facts?

    I'm rather puzzled at the moment, I thought Sim steering was in fact, the best way to experience FM4's physics, be it a controller or a wheel.

    So you reckon I shift to Normal for the best experience on a controller? Because I just love how I have to make really subtle and smooth corrections, and the cars respond so well. On the other hand, Normal does feel easier, since the over and understeer is a bit numbed down.

    Thoughts?
     
  14. justchyllan

    justchyllan

    Messages:
    531
    Location:
    United States
    I need to take some time and play FM4 both steering modes with a controller and let you know what I think
     
  15. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

    Messages:
    12,491
    Location:
    United States
    For a good comparison between each mode, I'd suggest powersliding the Ford RS200.

    On a controller, Simulation is always assisted in some way based on your speed and angle, because direct 1-to-1 control is mostly unmanagable with a joystick. In my opinion, neither mode is more realistic or "sim-like" than the other because both are subject to the same type of UI meddling, but with different parameters.

    I don't know if you use cockpit view, but Simulation kicks the steering wheel into countersteer quite rapidly. This contributes to nervous handling in mid- or rear-engined cars, but for the most part it puts the steering where it needs to go. In a full-throttle burnout on open pavement, Simulation's sharp oversteer control allows you to wag the tail so quickly the physics engine can't keep up. It's the ultimate "Drift King" setting.
     
  16. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,201
    Well I have noticed how sliding, and the whole under/oversteer thing seems quite easy and straight forward on Normal.

    Sim just makes every car more alive, and they do become more prone to over/understeer, for one simple reason: more intricate and consistent inputs are required to hit the perfect racing line before entering corners, while hitting the apex and exiting using finesse and proper throttle control.

    Since I'm a precision driver and use fairly intricate and minor inputs to steer (except for hairpins), I think I'll stick to Sim steering. Driving just feels more rewarding that way, and feels more realistic as well, when I compare it with real life experiences.
     
  17. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,201
    Sure, waiting your feedback! :D
     
  18. justchyllan

    justchyllan

    Messages:
    531
    Location:
    United States
    Lol still trying to find the time but in horizon the only thing I noticed recently was that after rubbing on a curb it can get twitchy and out of control.
     
  19. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

    Messages:
    12,491
    Location:
    United States
    @Speedster911 -- Rather than "more prone to over/understeer," I'd describe Simulation steering as "more prone to jump the gun on steering input you didn't intend."

    I don't think the X360's joysticks lend themselves to slow, intricate inputs. I make the same fine, precise adjustments that you do, but with quick taps instead of tiny wiggles. After a decade of conditioning in this play style on other games, Simulation steering's caffeine-addict responsiveness doesn't mesh well.

    I preferred Enthusia to Gran Turismo 4, too. Enthusia is one of the slowest-steering games I know, while cars in GT4 wiggle like rubber chickens.
     
  20. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,201
    Ah, that's it! You gotta avoid doing the quick taps! Years of playing racing games on analog sticks, and especially when Gran Turismo came out on the PS1, that's when I refined this technique: just moving the stick a millimeter or two, sometimes more, to the left or right and holding it there and adjusting the angle as needed. Seems like a lot of work, but really is a lot of fun once you refine it. Comes with mad practice and patience.

    I'll try and post a few of my replay videos, you will NOT be able to tell if it's a wheel or controller!

    P.s: a strong mug of coffee helps!
     
  21. Just been looking for advice with dead zones in forza 4 and stumbled upon this.. Sim handling is challenging/rewarding normal steering is easy and less rewarding. Don't try and make it sound the same cause you carnt handle the sim handling lol ;D
     
  22. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot Premium

    Messages:
    12,549
    Location:
    United States
    This thread is almost two years old. You revived it just to insult someone?
     
    Wolfe likes this.
  23. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,201
    Yeah sim handling is definitely more challenging, and that's the one I prefer even though I'm on a controller. It forces you to be even a sharper precision driver.

    Try these deads for the best control: All insides - zero, outsides - max.

    Get revving!
     
    imported_skidmark likes this.
  24. @ImaRobot And you revisited it to question my insult??take a chill pill.I explained I was looking for advice on dead zones and stumbled on someone trying to down play sim steering, when its obvious sim steering is a lot harder than normal steering,takes more skill!.

    It wasn't even an insult!! Who are you robot? His lover/bodyguard...jesus
     
  25. Speedster911

    Speedster911

    Messages:
    4,201
  26. Thanks I'll get right to it!!! :D
     
    Speedster911 likes this.
  27. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot Premium

    Messages:
    12,549
    Location:
    United States
    Yet your post consisted of not a single question concerning that. It was a post to attack someone because you think using an unnecessary obstacle of a steering option somehow makes you more skillful.

    Again, you revived a thread just to insult someone.
     
  28. Imarobot... Seriously dude you need to chill out. I said I was looking for help with dead zones in forza 4 and stumbled upon this Wolfe guy making sim steering out to be just a twitchy version of normal handling...when its so obviously NOT! It requires more skill,control with the controller or wheel.. Simple. Now get over it!
     
  29. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot Premium

    Messages:
    12,549
    Location:
    United States
    Regardless if it takes more skill or control or whatever you think it needs, its exactly as he labeled it. Its not anymore realistic, infact its unrealistic. Maybe it work's better with wheels, but with a pad its useless.

    Next time, if you're looking for information, to start out the post with that. Calling someone out isnt the most effective way to look for an answer for something you're wondering.
     
  30. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

    Messages:
    12,491
    Location:
    United States
    The bottom line is, if I was playing with a wheel (like I do for PC sims), Simulation steering does not behave the way I would operate the wheel myself. My driving style is smoother and more precise, and I have years of experience with RWD; for oversteer I allow the front wheels to mostly countersteer themselves, which resembles the measured response of Normal steering.

    Simulation steering is as "skillful" as setting the left trigger deadzone to lock up the brakes if you apply 10% of the range. More difficult, certainly, but it doesn't mean anything beyond a matter of preference. If you prefer Simultion steering, go ahead and enjoy it.