North Korea threatens with a nuclear strike.

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It kind of does for the U.S. to consider military action against the country.
:rolleyes:

Hmm,So I guess Iraqis(with all those Massive destruction weapons You found over there) and Somalis were threatening US soil...:rolleyes:


I'm curious what your point actually is, because you criticize the U.S. for not caring unless it directly affects them; and then you turn around and complain about the U.S. government (lol Bush sux) intervening in the past.

I never criticized US military interventions when they are fair,made in the Global interest of Planetary Peace with the approval of International Community,but when they are made based on lies or in their only self interest me ,and I think most Civilized Countries will sure criticize them...
As for Bush he did suxed-past of the word which I can't write- not anymore I have nothing against the man himself-probably a nice chap for playing golf or horse riding-only for what he standed for in terms of the most powerful Country at the moment(as the Romans,the Egyptians the Greeks,etc once were) Foreign Policy...:indiff:
 
It seems North Korean army is not highly trained, yes, it's a large army and they spend 25% of their GDP in it, but without their nuclear weapons they would be harmless.
I just read that due to poor nutrition the minimum height to enlist in their army had to be lowered, now is 130cm/4'3'
 
So I was reading the news on my phone earlier. Apparently some CIA spy chief that worked under the Bush administration thinks that North Korea is about to attack and we should take action very soon. Also new sanctions, something to do with Hillary Clinton, who was also an advocate of the Iraq conflict and Iran shenanigans, etc.

And more new sanctions against the country from Canada and the European Union.

Let's remove the other countries from the picture and concentrate on US and NK relations. What would NK do if the US suddenly stopped bitching and moaning and just left them alone? Would they honestly keep threatening what is by far the most powerful nation and military the world has ever seen? Or are their threats brought on because we keep dicking with them? On a human level it's a pretty common thing that when a person gets picked on and told "no" they end up getting defiant and doing what they want anyway. Doesn't seem a very far stretch to think that a group of people wouldn't act the same way as a single person, it's just human nature. From that we can conclude that all the problems we're having with NK right now are a direct and embarrassingly obvious result of our meddling in their affairs.

Why is our government so retarded? Why do they say one thing and then do another, making our voting process absolutely pointless? We have no choices of people to count on and vote for because the only people who actually want to be in politics are the idiots that aren't worth a crap.
 
I'm pretty much in alignment with danoff's post. I think the chances of North Korean rocket targeting Japan is great though. They have demonstrated dropping them on both sides of Japan(Sea of Japan-Pacific Ocean).

Having said that, our Maritime Self-Defense Force is equipped with Aegis. I'd say that chances are good that any North Korean rockets will be shot down before they reach Japan. Of course, North Korea can improve the odds by firing numbers or rockets, but I think their military have a limited capability in that area.
I'm completely accepting of the clarification between invasion and occupation.
Yes, that was clear in your post. I just wanted to make that second point.
However, your second point. Wow. Have you learnt nothing from 2 occupations?
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you mean here. I have stated that U.S. military has problem with them. What have I not learned?

I hope you are not assuming that I'm suggesting that, after invading North Korea, U.S. take control of North Korea. I've maintained that North should reunite with the South. No occupation.
The Taliban were a massively oppressive regime, Saddam was no better. Neither had much of a standing army to command, let alone overthrow them. And yet there are forces remaining in bother countries are terribly effective at crippling the Allied forces.

Yet North Korea reportedly has a standing army of a million men. More than enough for a military coup if feelings are so strongly against the regime. But it hasn't happened, so what on earth would give you the impression they're going to play along with an occupational force from the west!?
I think you got it all wrong. You are assuming that size of the army dictates the chance of coup. Coup d'etat actually has more to do with the politics(within, or outside), and the structure of said army.

If anything, I'd say that they are just hoping for change, a chance at reunification with the South. If there was no chance of that, I'd think the chance of coup would be great.

I'm not going to tell you wrong in you assumption, as my opinion is an assumption as well. But I really don't see them giving their life up for leadership that rob the poor, prison/torture/murder the weak opposition. And this isn't 1940's. They are not fooled by the propaganda. And while they haven't shown willingness to risk their lives fighting back, they do defect. Of course, you won't see much of those either, because it's nearly impossible to take your whole family with you, but they do run to China. Some even run to Japanese Embassy, etc. in China.
It seems North Korean army is not highly trained, yes, it's a large army and they spend 25% of their GDP in it, but without their nuclear weapons they would be harmless.
I just read that due to poor nutrition the minimum height to enlist in their army had to be lowered, now is 130cm/4'3'
Exactly, their military looks great on paper. The reality is, they don't have the funds for up-to-date, or well maintained equipments. Also, our reports on their strength tend to be bloated anyway. This is a common practice to get more funds(your tax dollar!).
 
Sure because only American lives matter...👎

Nope. I was talking about worrying about my own safety. Jump to conclusions much? I had just typed a very long explanation about how we would attempt to protect SK and Japanese lives from any attack by the north and had even talked about risking US pilots in response to an attack an a country OTHER THAN THE US.

How about paying attention?
 
Don't you love how people get it twisted?
 
So I was reading the news on my phone earlier. Apparently some CIA spy chief that worked under the Bush administration thinks that North Korea is about to attack and we should take action very soon. Also new sanctions, something to do with Hillary Clinton, who was also an advocate of the Iraq conflict and Iran shenanigans, etc.

And more new sanctions against the country from Canada and the European Union.

Let's remove the other countries from the picture and concentrate on US and NK relations. What would NK do if the US suddenly stopped bitching and moaning and just left them alone? Would they honestly keep threatening what is by far the most powerful nation and military the world has ever seen? Or are their threats brought on because we keep dicking with them? On a human level it's a pretty common thing that when a person gets picked on and told "no" they end up getting defiant and doing what they want anyway. Doesn't seem a very far stretch to think that a group of people wouldn't act the same way as a single person, it's just human nature. From that we can conclude that all the problems we're having with NK right now are a direct and embarrassingly obvious result of our meddling in their affairs.

Why is our government so retarded? Why do they say one thing and then do another, making our voting process absolutely pointless? We have no choices of people to count on and vote for because the only people who actually want to be in politics are the idiots that aren't worth a crap.
It's done in the name of regional stability, but mainly for the nukes. They just need to drop their nuclear program, but they won't, because they like involving U.S. on this.

I'm not sure about U.S. deciding who gets to have nukes, and who doesn't, but do you trust North Korea with nukes? I don't. It could be my Japanese bias, but they just might be the last country in Asia who should have nukes.
 
They signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and have since tried to back out. As far as I'm concerned, they committed themselves to not having nukes. It's not a US determination.
 
I don't see an invasion of North Korea. I see a crippling bombing campaign during which we decimate the NK military overnight. .

To make sure the record is straight, North Korea has not demonstrated (and you need to demonstrate it to be able to do it) the ability to strike US soil with rocketry. Until they do, I'm not worried about it.

Yeah,maybe I got it wrong...or maybe You need to explain Your Pov's of view better...
From where I sit this seems to be a very Selfish,thus doubtful,position...
 
They signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and have since tried to back out. As far as I'm concerned, they committed themselves to not having nukes. It's not a US determination.
North Korea has been a complete backstabber from very early on this, but it's no secret the U.S. do not want nuke in the hands of the North Koreans.
 
Yeah,maybe I got it wrong...or maybe You need to explain Your Pov's of view better...
From where I sit this seems to be a very Selfish,thus doubtful,position...

Ok, I'll add a helpful bit to my post so that someone reading it with your particular leanings won't jump to the wrong conclusions.

danoff
To make sure the record is straight, North Korea has not demonstrated (and you need to demonstrate it to be able to do it) the ability to strike US soil with rocketry. Until they do, I'm not worried about it LANDING ON MY HEAD

Also, please note these:


danoff
They have had some successful tests with rocketry at the Japan range, and we have had some successful tests shooting down rockets from boats parked off shore.

^^ Discussion of us altruistically protecting other countries

danoff
A) They hit Japan/SK and kill millions. Our response would be swift, non-nuclear, and devastating to their military. The South Korean military would move in and occupy the north, uniting Korea.

B) We intercept the the attack and Japan/SK is safe. Our response would be swift, non-nuclear, and devastating to their military. The South Korean military would move in and occupy the north, uniting Korea.

^^ Discussion of us retaliating against a nation that attacked NON AMERICANS!!! ZOMG!

danoff
Of course, neither of those things will happen - because they won't try a nuclear strike. They have threatened a nuclear "demonstration" - and that's all they're going to do. They'll brandish their nukes and rockets as best they can to try to scare us away. It won't work - and that's where we'll sit for the time being.

This one's more subtle. But the point here is that the United States of America is the reason they're not attacking Non-Americans.

In short, give me a friggin' break.
 
^^
Ok now You've made Yourself clear...
Never the less I don't think that bombing a country(even when ruled by an evil Dictator) is a solution,unless there is no other option to contain their belligerents intentions towards other Countries(S.K. and Japan in this case),because as I Stated before there were millions of North Korean citizens,innocents,women and children,who would be murdered...:nervous:
And we all know from the past how precise the surgical bombing can be...:sick:
 
^^
Ok now You've made Yourself clear...
Never the less I don't think that bombing a country(even when ruled by an evil Dictator) is a solution,unless there is no other option to contain their belligerents intentions towards other Countries(S.K. and Japan in this case),because as I Stated before there were millions of North Korean citizens,innocents,women and children,who would be murdered...:nervous:
And we all know from the past how precise the surgical bombing can be...:sick:
I don't know how many time I've stated in this thread already, they already suffer the consequences that you claim they will suffer, by the hand of their own government. This has been going on for decades. And as I've said before, this isn't like the B.S. the Iraq was, you really are freeing these people. Their government has searched, policed, jailed, tortured like Nazi-Germany, or Imperial Japan has to Jews & the Chinese resistance. We can only guess how many were murdered.

Think 1984, that is North Korea.
 
^^
Ok now You've made Yourself clear...
Never the less I don't think that bombing a country(even when ruled by an evil Dictator) is a solution,unless there is no other option to contain their belligerents intentions towards other Countries(S.K. and Japan in this case),because as I Stated before there were millions of North Korean citizens,innocents,women and children,who would be murdered...:nervous:
And we all know from the past how precise the surgical bombing can be...:sick:

This isn't kindergarten, we don't get to hold hands and work out problems with words all the time.

Naive view is naive. Have to break eggs to make am omelet.
 
arvore
Ok now You've made Yourself clear...
Never the less I don't think that bombing a country(even when ruled by an evil Dictator) is a solution,unless there is no other option to contain their belligerents intentions towards other Countries(S.K. and Japan in this case),because as I Stated before there were millions of North Korean citizens,innocents,women and children,who would be murdered...
And we all know from the past how precise the surgical bombing can be..

A) As previously stated, this would be in retaliation to a NK nuclear attack... so.... there's no other option.
B) There is no way the US is going to "murder" "millions" of civilians using surgical strikes - and yes, they are extremely precise.

me
Our response would be swift, non-nuclear, and devastating to their military.
 
I don't know how many time I've stated in this thread already, they already suffer the consequences that you claim they will suffer, by the hand of their own government. This has been going on for decades. And as I've said before, this isn't like the B.S. the Iraq was, you really are freeing these people. Their government has searched, policed, jailed, tortured like Nazi-Germany, or Imperial Japan has to Jews & the Chinese resistance. We can only guess how many were murdered.

Think 1984, that is North Korea.
I don't think that,no matter how bloody Kim's regime is,these consequences involve wiping out millions with a massive bombing,not to talk about Nuclear Strikes!Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

This isn't kindergarten, we don't get to hold hands and work out problems with words all the time.

Naive view is naive. Have to break eggs to make am omelet.

No it isn't that's why the Civilized Countries do not go bombing(or breaking eggs as You colorfully put it) on other Countries(despite how hateful their regime can be) unless it is ultimately necessary and to contain aggressions on other Allied Countries...

Being...well I wouldn't say naive rather irresponsible,is defending a massive bombing without it being absolutely necessary.


B) There is no way the US is going to "murder" "millions" of civilians using surgical strikes - and yes, they are extremely precise.

Well that wasn't what Your own media reported,and facts showed, not so long ago...

Edit:

The Myth of Surgical Bombing in the Gulf War

by Paul Walker
I first want to thank Ramsey Clark and the National Coalition for having the courage to undertake an event of this nature. I hope as we continue to dig for the truth in this war, the inquiry will be repeated and repeated and repeated hundreds of times over, not only in the United States but around the globe.
Let me try to give you a brief account of the weapons and the war as a military analyst like myself is trying to discover. I must say first that our research at the Institute for Peace and International Security in Cambridge has been going on for several months at this point, ever since the war began and to a certain extent before it began. And there still is a large amount of stonewalling in Washington. Much of the information is unavailable. Much of the information takes an inordinate amount of time to come out. Much of it given out by the various services is in fact contradictory.

The first images of the 42-day Mideast war mesmerized most viewers - nighttime television pictures of targeted Iraqi bunkers and buildings, many in downtown Baghdad, being surgically destroyed by precision-guided bombs dropped by stealthy aircraft. The crosshairs of an aircraft high-tech laser targeting system lined up on the rooftop of the Iraqi Ministry of Defense, moments later a laser-seeking 2,000 pound bomb blew the building apart. Then the cameras would turn to U.S. General H. Norman Schwarzkopf, commander of the anti-Iraq coalition, who described the attack "on his counterparts headquarters" with a wry, amused smile - you'll all remember this from the first night as I do. Hundreds of military news reporters in the Saudi briefing room laughed with nervous interest as if viewing Nintendo games, although thousands of individuals were killed, possibly, by that weapon. High-tech warfare had, indeed, come of age.

Back in Washington, General Colin Powell, Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, announced that he was "rather pleased that we appear to have achieved tactical surprise" against Iraqi forces in a sudden early morning first strike on January 17, 1991. Coalition forces undertook, in short, thousands of aircraft sorties and missile strikes in the first days of war. A select number of the successful ones with laser-guided bombs were portrayed daily back home on Cable News Network, Nightline, and other regular news programs.

Some 50 of the new F- 117A batwing stealth fighter bombers were flown in early attacks, apparently achieving better success in Baghdad than they had one year earlier when they missed their targets in Panama City. Over 200 Tomahawk cruise missiles were fired from ships and submarines for the first time in combat, also reportedly achieving successful "surgical strikes" on high-value Baghdad targets, including the Ministry of Defense and Saddam Hussein's presidential palace. American technological prowess was again displayed graphically several days later when Patriot air-defense missiles successfully intercepted attacking Iraqi missiles launched against Saudi Arabia and Israel.

These and other images of war, perhaps more than anything else, I believe, created an illusion of remote, bloodless, pushbutton battle in which only military targets were assumed destroyed. Pentagon officials stressed throughout their daily briefings that Coalition war planners were taking great pains to marry the right weapon with the right target in order to minimize "collateral damage," that is, injury to innocent civilians in Iraq and Kuwait, particularly in populated areas such as Baghdad and Kuwait City.

Halfway through the war, one journalist described the conflict as a "robo war" in which "the raids are intense, unremitting, and conducted with the world's most advanced non-nuclear weaponry but are unlikely to cause the sort of general destruction being anticipated by commentators." A Wall Street Journal article proclaimed, "Despite public perceptions, the recent history of high-tech conventional warfare has been to steadily reduce general destruction."

Despite all these public proclamations about limited casualties from so-called surgical and precision strikes there would appear to be much greater destruction and much higher numbers of dead and injured in Iraq and Kuwait. Early first-hand accounts provided glimpses of the possibilities of more than surgical damage to Iraqi targets. From my discussions with Ramsey Clark, this is certainly the case. For example, Captain Steven Tait, pilot of an F-16 jet fighter which escorted the first wave of bomber aircraft and who was the first American to shoot down an Iraqi plane, described his bird's eye view of Baghdad after the first hour of allied bombardment: "Flames rising up from the city, some neighborhoods lit up like a huge Christmas tree. The entire city was just sparkling at us."

The sheer amount of explosive tonnage dropped over Iraq and Kuwai also, I think, tends to undermine any assumption of surgical strikes. Air Force General McPeak, Air Force commanding general, proudly proclaiming, "Probably the first time in history that a field army has been defeated by air power," estimated that some 88,500 tons of bombs have been dropped in over 109,000 sorties flown by a total of 2,800 fixed-wing aircraft. Of these flights somewhat over half were actual bombing raids while the remainder involved refueling, bomber escort, surveillance, and so forth. Of the actual bombing missions, about 20,000 sorties were flown against a select list of 300 strategic targets in Iraq and Kuwait; about 5,000 were flown against SCUD missile launchers, and some 30,000 to 50,000 against Iraqi forces in southern Iraq and Kuwait. In all, more than 3,000 bombs (including sea-launched cruise missiles) were dropped on metropolitan Baghdad. The total number of bombs dropped by allied forces in the war comes to about 250,000. Of these only 22,000 were the so-called "smart bombs" or guided bombs. About 10,000 of these guided bombs were laser-guided and about 10,000 were guided anti-tank bombs. The remaining 2,000 were radiation guided bombs directed at communication and radar installations.

The most complete survey of all the different bombs, missiles, shells, and weapons so far appears in Appendix A of On Impact: Modern Warfare and the Environment, a report prepared by William Arkin, Damian Durrant, and Marianne Cherni for Greenpeace. This report was prepared for the "Fifth Geneva Convention on the Protection of the Environment in the Time of Armed Conflict" (London, June 3, 1991). The authors infer the total weapons used from the 1991 fiscal year supplemental budget request to Congress which lists weapons required to replenish U.S. stockpiles. The numbers are revealing and staggering. In part, they include:

2,095 HARM missiles
217 Walleye missiles
5,276 guided anti-tank missiles
44,922 cluster bombs and rockets
136,755 conventional bombs
4,077 guided bombs[1]
The conventional unguided bomb (so-called "dumb bomb") was the most commonly used weapon in the massacre. These come in four types: the Mk 82 (500 lbs), Mk 83 (1,000 lbs), Mk 84 (2,000 lbs), and the M117 (750 lbs). In all some 150,000 to 170,000 of these bombs were dropped during the war.
The U.S. arsenal contains eight kinds of guided bombs:

AGM-130, an electro-optically or infrared-guided 2,000 pound powered bomb,
GBU-10 Paveway II, a 2,000 pound laser-guided bomb based on a Mk 84,
GBU-101 Paveway II, a 2,000 pound laser-guided bomb with I-2000 hard target munition, employed exclusively on the F117A and used in small numbers,
GBU-12 Paveway II, a 500 pound laser-guided bomb, used against tanks,
GBU-24 Paveway III, a 2,000 pound laser-guided, low-level weapon (with BLU-109 bomb and mid-course auto pilot) used against chemical and industrial facilities, bridges, nuclear storage areas, and aircraft shelters,
GBU-27 Paveway III, a 2,000 pound laser-guided bomb with I-2000 hard target munition on the BLU-109/B, a "black program" adapted version of the GBU-24, used exclusively by F- 117A fighters to attack aircraft shelters, bunkers, and other targets in Baghdad, and
GBU-28, a 5,000 pound "bunker busting" laser-guided bomb, fabricated especially for the war against Iraq "in an effort to destroy extremely hardened, deeply buried Iraqi command and control bunkers, kill senior military officials and possible kill Saddam Hussein."[2]
As if explosive bombs were not enough, the U.S. used massive amounts of fire bombs and napalm, although U.S. officials denied using napalm against Iraqi troops, only on oil filled trenches (this raises the question of who set all the oil wells on fire in Kuwait and southern Iraq). These trenches, of course, in many cases surrounded bunkers where Iraqi soldiers were hiding. Perhaps the most horrifying of all bombs was the Fuel Air Explosives (FAE) which were used to destroy minefields and bunkers in Iraq and Kuwait. These firebombs were directly used against Iraqi soldiers, although military spokesmen and press reports have consistently tried to downplay their role.[3] Perhaps this is only because press reports were too descriptive before the war when the Pentagon was leaking stories about possible Iraqi use of FAEs, along with nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons - none of which ever appeared on the Iraqi side. The FAE is composed of an ethelene oxide fuel which forms an aerosol cloud or mist on impact. The cloud is then detonated, forming very high overpressures and a blast or shock wave that destroys anything within an area of about 50,000 square feet (for a 2,000 pound bomb). The U.S. also used "daisy cutters" or the BLU-82, a 15,000 pound bomb containing GSX Gelled slurry explosives. This, too, is a concussion type bomb which military spokesmen and the U.S. press said was used to detonate pressure sensitive mines. The mines, of course, surrounded Iraqi troop deployments and the concussive force of the bomb would surely also rupture internal organs or ear-drums of Iraqi soldiers pinned down in their bunkers. This is not even to mention incineration and asphyxiation, as the fire storm of the bomb sucks all of the oxygen out of the area. President Bush continually warned about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, but it is clear that U.S. forces alone used weapons of mass destruction against Iraqi troops in both Iraq and Kuwait.
Among other controversial weapons are cluster bombs and anti-personnel bombs which contain a large number of small bomblets inside a large casing. Upon impact the little bombs are dispersed over a wide area and then explode. Using cluster bombs, a single B-52 can deliver more than 8,000 bomblets in a single mission. A total of about 60,000 to 80,000 cluster bombs were dropped.[4]

What all of this means to anyone who thinks about the numbers is simply that the bombing was not a series of surgical strikes but rather an old fashioned mass destruction. On March 15, 1991, the Air Force released information stating that 93.6% of the tonnage dropped were traditional unguided bombs. So we have something like 82,000 tons of bombs that were non-precision guided and only 7,000 tons of guided bombs. This is not surgical warfare in any accurate sense of the term and more importantly in the sense that was commonly understood by the American public. Bombs were, moreover, not the only source of explosives rained down upon Iraq. Artillery shells from battleships and rocket launchers amounted to an additional 20,000 to 30,000 tons of explosives.


While the F-117 Stealth fighter captured the fascination of the news media, massive B-52s carried out the bulk of the work. Flying out of bases in Diego Garcia, Spain, United Kingdom, the United States, Saudi Arabia, and other places, B-52s dropped about thirty percent of the total tonnage of bombs. B-52s were used from the first night of the war to the last. Flying at 40,000 feet and releasing 40 - 60 bombs of 500 or 750 pounds each, their only function is to carpet bomb entire areas. General McPeak told Defense Week, "The targets we are going after are widespread. They are brigades, and divisions and battalions on the battlefield. It's a rather low density target. So to spread the bombs - carpet bombing is not my favorite expression - is proportionate to the target. Now is it a terrible thing? Yes. Does it kill people? Yes."[5] B-52s were used against chemical and industrial storage areas, air fields, troop encampments, storage sites, and they were apparently used against large populated areas in Basra.

Language used by military spokesman General Richard Neal during the war made it sound as if Basra had been declared a "free fire zone" - to use a term from the Vietnam war for areas which were declared to be entirely military in nature and thus susceptible to complete bombing. On February 11, 1991, Neal told members of the press that "Basra is a military town in the true sense.... The infrastructure, military infrastructure, is closely interwoven within the city of Basra itself"[6] He went on to say that there were no civilians left in Basra, only military targets. Before the war, Basra was a city of 800,000 people, Iraq's second largest. Eyewitness accounts Suggest that there was no pretense at a surgical war in this city. On February 5, 1991, the Los Angeles Times reported that the air war had brought "a hellish nightime of fires and smoke so dense that witnesses say the sun hasn't been clearly visible for several days at a time . . . [that the bombing is] leveling some entire city blocks . . . [and that there are] bomb craters the size of football fields and an untold number of casualties."[7] Press reports immediately following the cease-fire tried to suggest that the massive destruction of Basra was caused by Iraqi forces suppressing the Shiite rebellion or was simply left over from the Iran-Iraq war. This would not be the first time the press and the U.S. government covered up the extent of its war destruction - the case of Panama comes immediately to mind

The use of B-52s and carpet bombing violates Article 51 of Geneva Protocol I which prohibits area bombing. Any bombardment that treats a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located within a city as a single military objective is prohibited. Basra and most of southern Iraq and Kuwait where Iraqi forces were deployed were treated by U.S. military planners as a single area or to use McPeak's phrase "a low density target." The same is true for General Norman Schwarzkopf's order at the start of the ground war "not to let anybody or anything out of Kuwait City."[8] The result of this order was the massive destruction that came to be known as the "Highway of Death." In addition to retreating soldiers, many of whom had affixed white flags to their tanks which were clearly visible to U.S. pilots,[9] thousands of civilians, especially Palestinians, were killed as they tried to escape from Kuwait City. An Army officer on the scene told reporters that the "U.S. Air Force had been given the word to work over that entire area [roads leading north from Kuwait City] to find anything that was moving and take it out.''[10]


By now it should be clear to anyone that claims of a surgical or a precise war are no more than the kind of excuses which the guilty always give to deflect blame elsewhere. The destruction of Iraq was near total and it was criminal. The fact that Baghdad was not carpet bombed by B-52s does not mean that the civilian population was not attacked and killed. On top of the massive bombing, we have now a new kind of war: bomb now, die later. The precision bombs which did manage to hit their targets destroyed precisely the life-sustaining economic infrastructure without which Iraqis would soon die from disease and malnutrition. George Bush's remark on February 6, 1991, that the air strikes have "been fantastically accurate" can only mean that the destruction of the civilian economic infrastructure was, indeed, the desired target and that the U.S. either made no distinction between military and civilian targets or defined the military area in such a broad manner as to include much civilian property. In both cases, it is a war crime.

Finally, comments about the surgical nature of the war tend to neglect the outright massacre which occurred in southern Iraq and Kuwait. The only way to describe what happened there would be a killing frenzy. No accurate numbers of people killed in these areas exist but with the massive bombing of bunkers, especially by FAEs, it is likely that most of the Iraqi soldiers were killed by the saturation bombing. This number could go as high as several hundred thousand. These soldiers were defenseless from air attacks and cut off from communication with leaders in Baghdad. They were simply isolated by the U.S.-led coalition, brutally killed, and then bulldozed into some forty-nine mass graves. That is what General Colin Powell said in November with regard to the Iraqi army: "First you cut it off, then you kill it." There is nothing surgical about that.

Notes
Williarn M. Arkin, Darnian Durrant, and Marianne Cherni , On Impact: Modern Warfare and the Environment - A Case Study of the Gulf War (Washington, DC: Greenpeace, May 1991), p. 160, fn 377.
John D. Morrocco and David Fulghum , "USAF Developed a 4,700-lb. Bomb in Crash Program to Attack Iraqi Military Leaders in Hardened Bunkers," Aviation Week eS Space Technology, May 6, 1991: 85.
John Morrocco , "Looming Budget Cuts Threaten Future of Key HighTech Weapons," Aviation Week & Space Technology, April 22, 1991: 66-67. Eric Schmitt, "Why Iraqi Battle Threat Fizzled: Allied Strengths and Enemy Weaknesses," New York Times, March 4,1991: A9. Barbara Starr, "FAEs Used to Clear Mines," Jane's Defense Weekly, February 23, 1991: 247.
Arkin, Durrant, and Cherni , On Impact, Appendix A.
Tony Capaccio , "McPeak: Unclear If Air War has Sapped Iraqi Will," Defense Week, February 4, 1991.
Washington Post , February 2, 1991: A14.
Mark Fineman , "Smoke Blots Out Sun in Bomb-Blasted Basra," Los Angeles Times, February 5, 1991.
Bill Gannon "Pool Report with the Tiger Brigade Outside Kuwait City," Newark Star-Ledger, February 27, 1991.
Rowan Scarborough , "Pool Report Aboard the USS Blue Ridge," Washington Times, February 27, 1991.
Michael Kelly, "Highway to Hell," New Republic, April 1991: 12.
Paul Walker is the director of the Institute for Peace and International Security at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. His report was given at the New York Commission hearing, May 11, 1991 and at the Boston ommission hearing on June 8, 1991.

Quoted from here:
http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-myth.htm
 
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I don't think that,no matter how bloody Kim's regime is,these consequences involve wiping out millions with a massive bombing,not to talk about Nuclear Strikes!Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

me
Our response would be swift, non-nuclear, and devastating to their military.

^^ Note the part in bold.


Well that wasn't what Your own media reported,and facts showed, not so long ago...

I think I'd have noticed if we bombed a few million people into oblivion "not so long ago".
 
^^ Note the part in bold

I did that, was not necessarily aimed to You, as You can see there are others defending massive bombing even before a real Nuclear threat is on course...


I think I'd have noticed if we bombed a few million people into oblivion "not so long ago".

Treeded,but if You can see my Edit You will notice that some reputed co-citizens might disagree with You...(sure not millions but many thousands)
 
I don't think that,no matter how bloody Kim's regime is,these consequences involve wiping out millions with a massive bombing,not to talk about Nuclear Strikes!Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Most every historian, war analyst, and so on will agree that Hiroshima and Nagasaki ultimately saved more lives than it cost. You are aware of the completely all-in civilian suicide attacks that Japan was planning if we landed on their shores?

Are you so blinded by your dislike of the USA that you just quote deaths?

No it isn't that's why the Civilized Countries do not go bombing(or breaking eggs as You colorfully put it) on other Countries(despite how hateful their regime can be) unless it is ultimately necessary and to contain aggressions on other Allied Countries...

Being...well I wouldn't say naive rather irresponsible,is defending a massive bombing without it being absolutely necessary.

Fairly certain if North Korea shows aggression towards its neighbors, military action will be necessary. Even the most civilized of nations will have break downs in diplomacy. China likes to play chicken with our nuclear submarines, etc. A whole lot more goes on than just chatting over a conference room table, hate to break it to you.

I also strongly advise you reconsider your word choice in "massive bombing" and so on. Also, the Gulf War was a bit ago, technology has only improved since then. War isn't pretty, I don't think you understand that. I do, and like I said before, people die and that is just that. Consider any modern war effort to anything from Vietnam or further back. Its clean, precise, and focused more on combatants than before.

Maybe being in a highly passive country has disillusioned you, I know not, but you seem to have a rather naive view on things, seasoned with what I'd call anti-US sentiments.
 
I don't think that,no matter how bloody Kim's regime is,these consequences involve wiping out millions with a massive bombing,not to talk about Nuclear Strikes!Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Now you are putting words in my mouth, and Hiroshima & Nagasaki is a cheap shot, whether you meant to or not. :crazy:

I know a lot of people are wanting to talk to you right now, so it might be hard trying to keep track of who's saying what to you. I have never supported nuclear attack on North Korea, and that is a pretty big accusation you are sticking on me here. Yes, I do remember Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

And as danoff posted earlier, surgical strikes do not kill millions in the world's worst case scenario. Even with the B1's & B52's, it would take a lot of effort, might not even be plausible.
 
I did that, was not necessarily aimed to You, as You can see there are others defending massive bombing even before a real Nuclear threat is on course...

You were responding to a6m5, who had commented on a response you made about my post. As a result, I took this as a continuation of our discussion. Since it was not, perhaps you'd like to quote a6m5 discussing a pre-emptive nuclear attack on NK. Otherwise I'm going to suggest that you're arguing with a straw-man.

Treeded,but if You can see my Edit You will notice that some reputed co-citizens might disagree with You...(sure not millions but many thousands)

Nothing in there suggests that we aren't capable of surgical strikes. It suggests that we carpet bombed in some areas (I don't see a problem with that if it is appropriate for the target). It also suggests that we used plenty of dumb bombs - again, not a problem depending on the target. And it's not like we're just dumping bombs because we see some buildings still standing. When we drop dumb bombs, it's because we're trying to hit a target that doesn't require a precision strike. The article makes it sound like we just dropped bombs or fired artillery at random hoping to hit something alive. It's nonsense.

The article goes on to complain about killing Iraqi troops efficiently (again, not a problem), using precision strikes to take out electricity (not a problem, actually an accomplishment), and the Iraqis themselves killing each other. None of this really bolsters your claims of millions of NK casualties if we were to respond to North Korea detonating a nuke on Tokyo with some military-crippling bombing.

My points are simple:

- The US can decimate the NK military without setting foot on the ground and barely spending any money (certainly we don't have to leave Iraq or Afghanistan to do it)
- The regime change will come from a SK occupation
- NK clings to their "nukes" in an attempt to hold SK and Japan hostage
- NK is in violation of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty by having nukes
- NK rocket technology is insufficient to directly threaten the US, but may be sufficient to hit Japan
- There is no scenario in which NK will "win", so they'll just posture and blow hot air for a while longer.
 
This isn't like the 1940's, there will be no mass bombing on civilian targets.

I highly doubt the collateral damage would even come close to what North Korean leadership has done, and continues to do to its own people.

I apologize if I've caused any confusion. I post in tone of somewhat urgent manner, but I have said that I'm all for peaceful resolution to end the North Korean threat. But you thought I wanted to nuke North Korea, I doubt that you paid any attention to my earlier posts. :p
 
Most every historian, war analyst, and so on will agree that Hiroshima and Nagasaki ultimately saved more lives than it cost. You are aware of the completely all-in civilian suicide attacks that Japan was planning if we landed on their shores?

Are you so blinded by your dislike of the USA that you just quote deaths?
Do You mind quoting some of those Historians?
Because if You want I can quot a few that will disagree!
I don't dislike the USA,on the contrary,I dislike American citizens who think their country rules the world and have a bullying attitude towards People from other Nations,and want to bomb everyone they think it's against "the American "interests ,as they see it...👎:indiff:

Fairly certain if North Korea shows aggression towards its neighbors, military action will be necessary. Even the most civilized of nations will have break downs in diplomacy. China likes to play chicken with our nuclear submarines, etc. A whole lot more goes on than just chatting over a conference room table, hate to break it to you.

I also strongly advise you reconsider your word choice in "massive bombing" and so on. Also, the Gulf War was a bit ago, technology has only improved since then. War isn't pretty, I don't think you understand that. I do, and like I said before, people die and that is just that. Consider any modern war effort to anything from Vietnam or further back. Its clean, precise, and focused more on combatants than before.

Your patronizing attitude won't do You any good if You want to be taken seriously,which You clearly don't, in a serious discussion where millions of lives are at stake.

I wonder why You haven't bombed China,following Your logic...


Maybe being in a highly passive country has disillusioned you, I know not, but you seem to have a rather naive view on things, seasoned with what I'd call anti-US sentiments.
This last comment of You,which reveals a profound Ignorance of my Country History(even the recent one,clearly showing Your lack of knowlege of International Politics-or You would know that the summit where the Invasion of Iraq was decided occurred in my country,and that unfortunately my government,at the moment,was one of the few on E.U- WHO SUPPORTED THAT STUPID DECISION-and that the plains that flew to Iraque to bomb them to kingdom come stopped at my country to refuel-and makes me conclude that You are someone who I don't wont to argue any further so this will be my last response to any of Your posts in this thread
 
On Hiroshima & Nagasaki, mathematically, there is absolutely no doubt that they resulted in fewer casualties compared to the actual invasion. There. Is. No. Doubt.

Regarding if it was the right decision to drop an atomic bomb on civilians, it would take a better person than me to answer it. Yes, for the first time, there is no "opinion" coming out of my mouth! I don't think it was right, but did it save "lives"? Sure it did......
 
Now you are putting words in my mouth, and Hiroshima & Nagasaki is a cheap shot, whether you meant to or not. :crazy:

I know a lot of people are wanting to talk to you right now, so it might be hard trying to keep track of who's saying what to you. I have never supported nuclear attack on North Korea, and that is a pretty big accusation you are sticking on me here. Yes, I do remember Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

And as danoff posted earlier, surgical strikes do not kill millions in the world's worst case scenario. Even with the B1's & B52's, it would take a lot of effort, might not even be plausible.

No I'm not...

I wish they had oil, or some sort of strategical value, so the U.S. would just take them out.

But I understand this was in earlier stage of the conversation and that You probably(I hope)didn't meanted it...
As for the Nuclear Strike references they weren't made to offend You(I realize You're Japanese:tup:) but that was one of the reasons I thought You would understand why the" Let's bomb these ****** to hell, they are weak and alone"-that pretty much sums up the leaning of most posts in this thread- attitude is utterly childish and irresponsible and indefensible by grown ups in any other place than in a racing video game based site forum...
 
No I'm not...



But I understand this was in earlier stage of the conversation and that You probably(I hope)didn't meanted it...
As for the Nuclear Strike references they weren't made to offend You(I realize You're Japanese:tup:) but that was one of the reasons I thought You would understand why the" Let's bomb these ****** to hell, they are weak and alone"-that pretty much sums up the leaning of most posts in this thread- attitude is utterly childish and irresponsible and indefensible by grown ups in any other place than in a racing video game based site forum...
So did I mean it or not? You claim that you are not putting words in my mouth, but on the very next line, you are quoting my irrelevant comment about the oil.

I do appreciate that you weren't trying to offend, but isn't that like sort of sucker punching somebody, and then saying it's alright, I didn't mean anything by that? ;) :lol: I'm not taking this seriously, so honestly no sweat, but I hope you get my meaning.

There is a huge difference in taking out a ruthless regime, one of the worst violators of human rights, to nuking two cities filled with civilians. They can not be compared.
 
If North Korea were to launch a nuke, there would be nowhere they could run. No-one would support them, and a military response would be inevitable. They would not be able to hold off anyone who came for them.

They can't be that stupid. Can they?

Iran.
 
Iran wouldn't touch North Korea with a 10 foot pole. For all of Ahmadinejad's posturing, he would want nothing to do with a country who actively pursued nuclear weapons and them used them against someone, and even if he did, Khamenei definitely wouldn't. All allying with North Korea if they did something so radical would do is cause Iran more strife.
 
You were responding to a6m5, who had commented on a response you made about my post. As a result, I took this as a continuation of our discussion. Since it was not, perhaps you'd like to quote a6m5 discussing a pre-emptive nuclear attack on NK. Otherwise I'm going to suggest that you're arguing with a straw-man.
In case of You haven't noticed for the last couple of hours i did nothing but responding multiple quotes from my posts...and I sincerely didn't thought it was necessary to direct everyone of my statements at a particular individual-mainly because I didn't expect that a discussion of International Politics,especially when they regard war acts that affect Humankind as a global community would end on personal attacks-in which I was obviously mistaken:indiff:
Further more You were pretty able to recognize by Yourself that statement was referring to other members posts so I won't even go for the...how was it?Oh right:

How about paying attention?
And on top of all in the middle of this flame war I just let my dinner burn so please now You
give me a friggin' break.
:sly:


Nothing in there suggests that we aren't capable of surgical strikes. It suggests that we carpet bombed in some areas (I don't see a problem with that if it is appropriate for the target). It also suggests that we used plenty of dumb bombs - again, not a problem depending on the target. And it's not like we're just dumping bombs because we see some buildings still standing. When we drop dumb bombs, it's because we're trying to hit a target that doesn't require a precision strike. The article makes it sound like we just dropped bombs or fired artillery at random hoping to hit something alive. It's nonsense
.
In my world qualifying a substantiated opinion with "It's nonsense" without arguing why and what are the basis to that conclusion,gets You nowhere...


The article goes on to complain about killing Iraqi troops efficiently (again, not a problem), using precision strikes to take out electricity (not a problem, actually an accomplishment), and the Iraqis themselves killing each other. None of this really bolsters your claims of millions of NK casualties if we were to respond to North Korea detonating a nuke on Tokyo with some military-crippling bombing.

My points are simple:

- The US can decimate the NK military without setting foot on the ground and barely spending any money (certainly we don't have to leave Iraq or Afghanistan to do it)
- The regime change will come from a SK occupation
- NK clings to their "nukes" in an attempt to hold SK and Japan hostage
- NK is in violation of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty by having nukes
- NK rocket technology is insufficient to directly threaten the US, but may be sufficient to hit Japan
- There is no scenario in which NK will "win", so they'll just posture and blow hot air for a while longer

Now You've got me completely puzzled!Did I got You wrong the first time or what?
Do You even care about something that aren't American lives and Economics(how much the wiping out of thousands-see more accuracy on the numbers now:sly:-will cost the USA:crazy: ,REALLY???) or am I just waisting
my time here?:indiff:



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So did I mean it or not? You claim that you are not putting words in my mouth, but on the very next line, you are quoting my irrelevant comment about the oil
.

Man this is getting boring...You said it,well wrote it...if You mean it or not,only You will know.I just hoped not...

I do appreciate that you weren't trying to offend, but isn't that like sort of sucker punching somebody, and then saying it's alright, I didn't mean anything by that? ;) :lol: I'm not taking this seriously, so honestly no sweat, but I hope you get my meaning.

Now You are putting words in my mouth...I didn't said that"I didn't mean anything by that?"
I meant a lot actually and thought since You claimed to be Japanese which after this:

Regarding if it was the right decision to drop an atomic bomb on civilians, it would take a better person than me to answer it. Yes, for the first time, there is no "opinion" coming out of my mouth! I don't think it was right, but did it save "lives"? Sure it did......
I'm beginning to wonder...I felt that You from all would understand my point,apparently not...

There is a huge difference in taking out a ruthless regime, one of the worst violators of human rights, to nuking two cities filled with civilians. They can not be compared

So what You're saying is that U.S would surgically nuke only Kim's palace!?:ouch:
 
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Sorry double post,just edited my previous one...
 
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