On tyre difficulty

[Z1-AV69]

While in GT5 I thought (like most probably) the lower grade the tyres, the more difficult to drive, I don't think this is true in GT6 anymore.

Of course racing tyres offer the most grip and the best laptimes, but I feel both sports and even more comfort tyres are easier to drive. The reason is the behavior at the edge of grip. I drive high powered cars on everything from comfort hards to racing softs and I think the 3 classes of tyres have big differences in how smooth or violent a loss of grip happens.
On comforts the grip loss comes early, but very very smooth. The car starts sliding a bit, usually doesn't get unsettled, is easy to catch back. You get a lot of feedback and time before the car goes lost.
On racing tyres there is a ton of grip up to the limit but beyond that it is really difficult to catch the car back. You really need to nail your setup so the car can drift over all 4 wheels. The limit comes without much warning and the car is very easily unsettled. Another example is snapping: On comforts your car doesn't snap out of a slide. On racing softs (especially with wear) it's a big danger if you get drifting somewhere, better don't do it.

There is of course 1 thing where stickier tyres are much easier: Throttle control. As long as you practice an on/off approach, better stay with the tyres offering the most grip. Beyond that though I feel it is hardest to drive consistently at the limit with racing tyres. It takes me the longest to get used to.

Within each class of tyres the softest are the easiest, because they offer the most grip and I think the big difference at the edge of grip is only between the classes. So the hardest to drive in my theory is the racing hard tyre.

So I'm asking: Is the recent trend of favoring the lower grade tyres in fact a flight into comfort, where it is easy?

 

[Johnnypenso]

While in GT5 I thought (like most probably) the lower grade the tyres, the more difficult to drive, I don't think this is true in GT6 anymore.

Of course racing tyres offer the most grip and the best laptimes, but I feel both sports and even more comfort tyres are easier to drive. The reason is the behavior at the edge of grip. I drive high powered cars on everything from comfort hards to racing softs and I think the 3 classes of tyres have big differences in how smooth or violent a loss of grip happens.
On comforts the grip loss comes early, but very very smooth. The car starts sliding a bit, usually doesn't get unsettled, is easy to catch back. You get a lot of feedback and time before the car goes lost.
On racing tyres there is a ton of grip up to the limit but beyond that it is really difficult to catch the car back. You really need to nail your setup so the car can drift over all 4 wheels. The limit comes without much warning and the car is very easily unsettled. Another example is snapping: On comforts your car doesn't snap out of a slide. On racing softs (especially with wear) it's a big danger if you get drifting somewhere, better don't do it.

There is of course 1 thing where stickier tyres are much easier: Throttle control. As long as you practice an on/off approach, better stay with the tyres offering the most grip. Beyond that though I feel it is hardest to drive consistently at the limit with racing tyres. It takes me the longest to get used to.

Within each class of tyres the softest are the easiest, because they offer the most grip and I think the big difference at the edge of grip is only between the classes. So the hardest to drive in my theory is the racing hard tyre.

So I'm asking: Is the recent trend of favoring the lower grade tyres in fact a flight into comfort, where it is easy?

It's more along the lines of modeling reality. On street tires there is far less grip to begin with, so the transition from full grip to slide is much smaller and less violent. On racing tires the difference between full grip and sliding is much bigger, which is probably why you don't see guys routinely hanging the back end out while circuit racing.

 

[rosckolove]

If you had two identical time trials except for the fact that they had comfort softs and racing softs as the only difference. I would think that the absolute max of the comfort tires would be harder to achieve (haha I meant try and get close to) for the majority of players. I agree about the whole grip loss difference but the precision it takes to achieve an alien lap on lesser grip tires is remarkably hard to uh.. Do.

 

[Z1-AV69]

@rosckolove: In theory maybe, in practice the comforts will be easier to max out the longer the track and the lesser the amount of tries possible. Simply because the little errors even those perfect laps have (every time you do a new personal best you usually also see where there could be more, which you didn't see before) have much less consequences on comforts than on racing tyres. There is no absolute max, only the fastest someone did so far. As I said I find it much easier to lap the ring close to my personal best on sports than on racing tyres and my impression from the other ringers is the same.

@Johnnypenso: I don't find the difference unrealistic at all. Of course normal tyres for normal people and normal cars on normal roads should be easier. My point is just I don't see reason to look down to those preferring the stickier tyres with the sharper edge.

 

[gtpcaine]

My point is just I don't see reason to look down to those preferring the stickier tyres with the sharper edge.

Because they are faster, that's what racing is all about, being faster than the other guy/girl.

 

[eran0004]

So I'm asking: Is the recent trend of favoring the lower grade tyres in fact a flight into comfort, where it is easy?

Lower grip tyres are typically used because they are more fun, while higher grip tyres are typically not allowed because they are too fast. I don't think the difficulty plays such a big role when it comes to tyre preferences.

 

[Johnnypenso]

@Johnnypenso: I don't find the difference unrealistic at all. Of course normal tyres for normal people and normal cars on normal roads should be easier. My point is just I don't see reason to look down to those preferring the stickier tyres with the sharper edge.

Yes, but I didn't say anything about it being unrealistic?. I said it was realistic (realism) and didn't say anything about looking down on people. You sure this is for me?

 

[ryzno]

Well they did remodel the tire physics in GT6, thanks to Yokohama...

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

If you had two identical time trials except for the fact that they had comfort softs and racing softs as the only difference. I would think that the absolute max of the comfort tires would be harder to achieve (haha I meant try and get close to) for the majority of players. I agree about the whole grip loss difference but the precision it takes to achieve an alien lap on lesser grip tires is remarkably hard to uh.. Do.

Yeah, I can't imagine driving one of my Wangan Midnight replica like Makoto's Z32 Twin Turbo at 800HP with the insane torque on comfort soft ( the replica tires as used on wangan battle ), it's a spin city more like having tires made of cheese Even alien drivers would have hard time staying on track while pushing the very limit. Then there's the Blackbird 700HP based on RUF BTR on comfort soft I am curious what sort of time the Ringers could do with these hardcore Wangan Midnight cars. They are manageable on SSR7 ( wangan ), but it's not the same on green hell.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yeah, I can't imagine driving one of my Wangan Midnight replica like Makoto's Z32 Twin Turbo at 800HP with the insane torque on comfort soft ( the replica tires as used on wangan battle ), it's a spin city more like having tires made of cheese Even alien drivers would have hard time staying on track while pushing the very limit. Then there's the Blackbird 700HP based on RUF BTR on comfort soft I am curious what sort of time the Ringers could do with these hardcore Wangan Midnight cars. They are manageable on SSR7 ( wangan ), but it's not the same on green hell.

Good point. One thing that is dramatically different on RS tires is wheelspin. A combination you can just press the pedal to the floor on every corner with RS, will require delicate throttle control on exit with Comforts on. Cars are also much more skittish on curbs with harder tires so you can't just ride them without placing your car first and being careful with the throttle and steering inputs while doing so.

 

[rosckolove]

@rosckolove:As I said I find it much easier to lap the ring close to my personal best on sports than on racing tyres

I meant time trial alien pace. Like I said I agree about the grip/no grip difference, but going fast on lesser tires is harder. It requires a level of weight transfer management that is extremely difficult. And the throttle Control needed to truly go fast is much harder.

 

[Z1-AV69]

I meant time trial alien pace. Like I said I agree about the grip/no grip difference, but going fast on lesser tires is harder. It requires a level of weight transfer management that is extremely difficult. And the throttle Control needed to truly go fast is much harder.

In my territory I wouldn't fear them...

But it's not only me stating there is no absolute max. Last year some mag asked the F1 drivers if they believed there is something like the perfect lap. Some guys actually said so, but it were the slower ones. The top blokes, especially those excelling in qualifying, didn't believe in the perfect lap. They said you can come close but in hindsight you'll always think there could be another tenth. The reason is simple: As soon as you start to believe it was perfect, you stop searching for the improvement. There is always some tenth somewhere, the only question is: where?

 

[rosckolove]

In my territory I wouldn't fear them...

But it's not only me stating there is no absolute max. Last year some mag asked the F1 drivers if they believed there is something like the perfect lap. Some guys actually said so, but it

I meant to quote your entire post...

I'm not disagreeing with you but it doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand. The car is capable of X time on comfort tires and Y time on racing tires. I think it would be easier for the majority of players to get closer to Y rather than X.

 

[TexRex]

Due to the simple lack of my preferred type of racing online (particularly in rooms where the spoken language is one that I actually understand) I've been stepping up to some of the more ridiculous cars such as the McLaren MP4, Audi R8 5.2, Ferrari 458 and the downright absurd McLaren F1, Ferrari Enzo, Bugatti Veyron, Pagani Huayra, while still using the same tires that I run on keis and Miatas.

After 14 laps of the Nordschleife in the Pagani Huayra '13 on Comfort Medium tires with a best of 7:39.955 and a shameful worst of 8:1x.xxx, I left painfully aware that the car wasn't intended to run that compound. It's not even an issue of controlling the back end--never leaving the throttle completely while cornering all but handles that problem--but it was the issue of the tires never quieting down. Launch, shift, brake...entry, apex, exit...the tires were constantly telling me that they were done.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the challenge and it probably wasn't my last attempt with the same combination, I just don't anticipate taking it into any sort of competition. But I will say this: while the car was definitely slower, I feel it was also far more forgiving of my inputs.

 

[Z1-AV69]

I meant to quote your entire post...

I'm not disagreeing with you but it doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand. The car is capable of X time on comfort tires and Y time on racing tires. I think it would be easier for the majority of players to get closer to Y rather than X.

Agree, mostly because of throttle control though which is clearly easier whith stickies, as stated in OP.

We don't have to fight here. I started this -rather philosphical- discussion only to encourage to look beyond the own gridlocked view on tyre choice.

 

[rosckolove]

No fight intended. I don't really think your wrong either. I really enjoyed yours posts about race craft we should race online again sometime. Haven't been on track with ya since gt5 R'S lobbies. I have got a wheel now. I noticed You use multiple accounts now which should I add?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Due to the simple lack of my preferred type of racing online (particularly in rooms where the spoken language is one that I actually understand) I've been stepping up to some of the more ridiculous cars such as the McLaren MP4, Audi R8 5.2, Ferrari 458 and the downright absurd McLaren F1, Ferrari Enzo, Bugatti Veyron, Pagani Huayra, while still using the same tires that I run on keis and Miatas.

After 14 laps of the Nordschleife in the Pagani Huayra '13 on Comfort Medium tires with a best of 7:39.955 and a shameful worst of 8:1x.xxx, I left painfully aware that the car wasn't intended to run that compound. It's not even an issue of controlling the back end--never leaving the throttle completely while cornering all but handles that problem--but it was the issue of the tires never quieting down. Launch, shift, brake...entry, apex, exit...the tires were constantly telling me that they were done.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the challenge and it probably wasn't my last attempt with the same combination, I just don't anticipate taking it into any sort of competition. But I will say this: while the car was definitely slower, I feel it was also far more forgiving of my inputs.

So do you normally have more than a 40 second swing in lap times on RS tires at the Nurb?

 

[TexRex]

So do you normally have more than a 40 second swing in lap times on RS tires at the Nurb?

I've never raced on RS there, but I like to think those 40 seconds were more indicative of improvement than of inconsistency. Barring any unusual incidents and with tire wear disabled, the only way I can justify a 40 second 'swing' is from growing numb to the speed and getting off of my line (which wouldn't happen in only 14 laps).

 

[Johnnypenso]

I've never raced on RS there, but I like to think those 40 seconds were more indicative of improvement than of inconsistency. Barring any unusual incidents and with tire wear disabled, the only way I can justify a 40 second 'swing' is from growing numb to the speed and getting off of my line (which wouldn't happen in only 14 laps).

Try it on RS and see what the gap is.

 

[TexRex]

Try it on RS and see what the gap is.

Less? More? I've never felt the need to purchase a set of them and would like to continue not doing so, especially for a road car. I'd imagine the learning curve would be smaller given the drastically increased amount of grip, though the increased grip could also allow for exponentially greater improvement. I just assume leave well enough alone and simply say that whatever you think I'll experience is what I'll experience--despite the fact that I never disputed the claims anyone was making, only adding my own experiences to the conversation.

 

[Z1-AV69]

No fight intended. I don't really think your wrong either. I really enjoyed yours posts about race craft we should race online again sometime. Haven't been on track with ya since gt5 R'S lobbies. I have got a wheel now. I noticed You use multiple accounts now which should I add?

Would be a pleasure to see you online. There are too few super quick quys around in GT6!
I think I'll stick with lukasspeed again.

 

[Zolon32]

So I'm asking: Is the recent trend of favoring the lower grade tyres in fact a flight into comfort, where it is easy?

I don't really care why people would want to move to comfort tyres, I just wish that everyone would. But as far as I can see less than 5% of rooms have their regs set at comfort tyres; so there's aa awful lot of people making life really difficult for themselves racing 400pp cars on racing tyres. Why oh why won't they take the easy option.

Have a word with them will you?

Cheers, Zo.

 

[Z1-AV69]

I don't really care why people would want to move to comfort tyres, I just wish that everyone would. But as far as I can see less than 5% of rooms have their regs set at comfort tyres; so there's aa awful lot of people making life really difficult for themselves racing 400pp cars on racing tyres. Why oh why won't they take the easy option.

Have a word with them will you?

Cheers, Zo.

Well, I don't even understand why anyone would want to race mom's shopping cruiser or what that is at 400 PP..

 

[TexRex]

Well, I don't even understand why anyone would want to race mom's shopping cruiser or what that is at 400 PP..

400 is a fair bit more than most people would think--I believe a stock '06 S2000 is barely over that. You'd be surprised by how much fun there is to be had racing stock Miatas and hot hatches or mildly tuned front-drive keis. It's less about getting on the power asap and more about maintaining momentum.

 

[Z1-AV69]

400 is a fair bit more than most people would think--I believe a stock '06 S2000 is barely over that. You'd be surprised by how much fun there is to be had racing stock Miatas and hot hatches or mildly tuned front-drive keis. It's less about getting on the power asap and more about maintaining momentum.

Of course that wasn't a serious comment, sry!

 

[TexRex]

Of course that wasn't a serious comment, sry!

My sarcasmometer hasn't been working lately, no harm done though.

Updates:

7:27.544 around the Nordschleife in a stock (except for -1 front brake pressure) Pagani Huayra '13 on Comfort Medium tires.
7:53.923 in stock McLaren F1, also on Comfort Medium.

I can feel that the F1 is faster than the Pagani, but good lord the back end gets loose and blows the lap for me in a few places (particularly over the hill at Schwedenkreuz and the little bump just before the straight).