One for the moderators (and general public)

[GTP_rpm]

Ok, seem to be having trouble with one of the other racer, who I personally respect as a person and a racer, but he seems to be having difficulty respecting me on either count.

We suffered from a similar move, a few weeks back, couldn't be resolved by PSN messages, despite me saying I'd treat him the same if we raced again.

Today, we did race again, close...he hit me, he apologised, no problem at all. I personally didn't feel he had to say anything, it was a 'love tap'

However, later on in a 6player race, we managed to come across an incident almost identical to one which happened a few weeks ago.

He is 100% certain, that I did an ''illegal move'' but after discussion on MSN, which he just a few minutes ago left without reason, he cannot determin or make it clear what I did that actually made my pass ''illegal''.

Here are the stills.

I offered him the choice of 1) I send him the stills before he opens his loud mouth even further, or 2) he can make a topic notifying the mods of my ''illegal driving''.

He dissapeared.

Here are the sequence of photo's.

If I am deemed incorrect and of ill-judgement in this passing, by every single member, then I am deeply, deeply shocked.

Photo 1

Photo 2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 as he ghosts...

13

14

15

16

17

18

The full race video clip will be on youtube tomorow.

If that incident is deemed illegal, unfair, harsh or by anymeans unsporting on my count...by a respect member, I'll take a step down, apologise and hopefully they can forgive me.

But in my opinion, someone who has raced since they were 8years old, that move was totally legitimate.

Your call 👍

P.s. So who is the mod that he claims is ''waiting to see these pics''? And the 4 other drivers, who have contacted him saying thy agree that I am a poor driver?

I'm dying to know

 

[Paulie]

I don't personally see a problem with it. I don't know if moving on that painted area is illegal, but I do it when I need to. By the looks of it he simply hasn't given you racing room into turn 1.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Oh, c'mon, is this really that important? Just get on with your lives and not worry about it. It's not real life, you're not paying for any damage to your car, you're not looking to score points to win a championship.

 

[GTP_rpm]

The white line, that my right wheels are on is off the circuit.

My left wheels are within the circuit boundaries.

Thank you for seeing things from my perspective.

P.s. @ mods, I am not poo-stiring, literally, if this topic needs to go elsewhere, sobeit.

Just help us get this resolved...unless he is telling the truth about the un-named moderator who contacted him regarding my driving...? That'd be biased.

@ jackington.

I understand you, I did this topic through defense.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

IMO, you don't need to defend yourself. I'm sure people know you're a clean racer and I doubt they're all going to think you're a dirty racer just because of this incident.

 

[supersonic-88]

Seems to be a fine pass to me. You have 2 wheels still on track as per the rules laid out during qualifiers/gtp events & then from what i can gather in those pics, you are already fully past him approaching the first corner, you brake perhaps a tad early, he comes back up to you on the outside, but as you are on the inside, you have the right to that corner, he decides he wants to hassle you & try to go around the outside (which is very optimistic) & as you're going through the corner your car slides towards the outside of the track (which is expected) & you touch his car which causes him to go off the track.

In my opinion you have done nothing wrong and that driver should have realized you had the corner & he should of just backed off & fell in behind you.

 

[GTP_rpm]

That's all I needed. Thanks.

The races from last night/this morning will be up on youtube tomorow/today...This race included.

It looks even funnier in race mode.

 

[Patrik]

I've just had the same problem as you RPM_crx, and with the very same driver. He now claims I'm far from a clean driver and so on.. I admit a was a little bit rough at some points, and I apologiesed for it. But still he yells at me that I'm not worthy of the GTP_tag and such. I couldn't care less, but he seems really angry..

 

[GTP_rpm]

Pmt?

 

[zed300]

Photo 12 :you say as he ghosts (touch isn't until photo 15),P.D. gets 99% of the penalties right .If he is ghosting ,hasn't he caused the incident by closing the gap.

 

[Benannt]

GTR_rpm - To those images, it is an "ok" (albeit iffy and somewhat unsporting) move. You had two wheels on the track. In my POV you looked like you were well past the yellow line. I was wrong, I admit it.

That being said why did you not go to the left? Where you would of had the "proper" line into turn 1 and I wouldn't have blocked you (blocking in my mind is unsporting). We raced clean for 4 laps, bumper to bumper, trading 1st and 2nd a few times due to slipstreaming. You had done this to me before, with two wheels in the grass that time yet you do it again knowing what I'm going to do? I never deviated from my line in all those images.

Edit 1: Using the pit exit as part of the track in that way (off the "race line") is iffy as well. In F1, if there was a car leaving the pit and you crossed that line in that way you would have been issued a penalty. You know that.

Edit 2: I just noticed this. Look at your track position in frame 18. Look how wide on the turn you are. That shows how much excess speed you carried into the turn after that iffy moved you pulled. Even if we had both been in the middle of the track and the yellow line wasn't even an issue... you still only gained that corner by carrying way too much speed into it. You would have taken out anyone to the outside of you, which I've watched you do before to others.

Also I "disappeared" from MSN because you wasted 20minutes of my time with your antics. I have no power to report anything to the mods here anymore as that has been stripped from me. That being said if you are going to use a team tag you need to race fair and clean. Even if the community seems to reason that move was "ok"...it still is rather iffy and unsporting behavior.

Patrik - You hit me on the back straight, for one, after you slipstreamed me. I never moved yet you hit me. Then in various other corners you bump me out of the way to pass me. Then the final straw was me slipstreaming you on the main straight, passing you cleanly to the right well before the brake zone, in the brake zone you tag me from behind send me almost into the sand then cut to the inside, hit me again, and run wide at the exit of turn 2 while I'm already on the edge of the track trying to keep it together. That is why I pulled off after that corner. Two races in a row with that behavior from you and I had enough. The other GTP driver in that second race with us also commented on your rough driving. He happens to be one of my most trust racers and very trusted in this community.

If you can't make a pass without contact, don't attempt the pass. Simple.

 

[Patrik]

Patrik - You hit me on the back straight, for one, after you slipstreamed me. I never moved yet you hit me. Then in various other corners you bump me out of the way to pass me. Then the final straw was me slipstreaming you on the main straight, passing you cleanly to the right well before the brake zone, in the brake zone you tag me from behind send me almost into the sand then cut to the inside, hit me again, and run wide at the exit of turn 2 while I'm already on the edge of the track trying to keep it together. That is why I pulled off after that corner. Two races in a row with that behavior from you and I had enough.

If you can't make a pass without contact, don't attempt the pass. Simple.

Man I wish this was recorded as well. Or no I dont.. Because I don't care.

 

[GTP_rpm]

Very man of you to go back on your many words, Benannt. You've gained ''some'' respect back for that, but lost a piece of it forever.

I didn't pass you to the left, because the instinctive move is 99/100 to the inside. Outside passes are not only rare, but very risky - especially on a makeshift online racing service that GT5P provides us with, where lag is plentiful.

You demonstrated quite perfectly, why overtaking (well...trying to) around the outside of T1 is suicide.

That's why I went for the inside.

P.s. Patrik, buy a camcorder. I spanked nearly £300 on one just to resolve a topic like this tonight. It's already paid for itself in my opinion. I'm a competative kind of guy and I'm right on and off the circuit...and this little cost allowed me to keep up with myself.



See you next time, Benannt - no more cutting up

 

[bicycleshorts]

Edit 1: Using the pit exit as part of the track in that way (off the "race line") is iffy as well. In F1, if there was a car leaving the pit and you crossed that line in that way you would have been issued a penalty. You know that.

Wrong. See: Massa's overtake on Webber last weekend at Fuji (which for the record I think was stupid and reckless).

Also on 18 it looks to me like he moved over to get a good line for the next corner - not that he slid over. Once he was passed on the straight you should have given up the position and attempted to cut back and get an inside line for turn 2. Just my opinion.

 

[Benannt]

Very man of you to go back on your many words, Benannt. You've gained ''some'' respect back for that, but lost a piece of it forever.

To those images, you had two wheels on the racing surface, therefore it was "clean".. I can't not admit that. But still very iffy and simply unsporting. Still that was a iffy move and one that I'd expect from a untagged racer but not a tagged racer.

You demonstrated quite perfectly, why overtaking (well...trying to) around the outside of T1 is suicide.
)

And that is why I defend the inside line if someone can slipstream me, especially now with spec III and in this Ferrari event where slipstreaming is so exaggerated. yet you still pass to the right and force a possible that could end both of our races, which it did for me. Again, I did not move from my line in any of those images. I felt no contact (I use a DFGT wheel FYI) until you shunted me in the turn, nor did you ghost to my POV.

P.s. Patrik, buy a camcorder. I spanked nearly £300 on one just to resolve a topic like this tonight. It's already paid for itself in my opinion. I'm a competative kind of guy and I'm right on and off the circuit...and this little cost allowed me to keep up with myself.

If you need to go out and spend £300 on a camera to "resolve" these issues? Obviously you are having alot of these 'issues" to need that camera. Doesn't that say something about you driving?

Wrong. See: Massa's overtake on Webber last weekend at Fuji (which for the record I think was stupid and reckless).

Also on 18 it looks to me like he moved over to get a good line for the next corner - not that he slid over. Once he was passed on the straight you should have given up the position and attempted to cut back and get an inside line for turn 2. Just my opinion.

Webber is known for his blocking. Massa is know for doing dumb things. There was so much unsporting and unprofessional driving on display at the 2008 Fuji GP it was disgusting. Still doesn't make it right.

Wrong. See: Massa's overtake on Webber last weekend at Fuji (which for the record I think was stupid and reckless).

See, that is my point though. I admit, he had two wheel on the track. Fine. But like the webber move his move was just as unsporting. Again, alot of us have come to expect this type of driving from untagged drivers out there. Everyone complains about the punters here. What is the point of team/board tags and whatever "code of ethics" those are supposed to represent if even tagged drivers can pull these stunts? People are saying "it's only a game"... but then wy do we have team/board tags and why do we all complain so much if we get punted if tagged drivers do essentially the same thing? Is GTP_rpm a punter? No. Is he an aggressive driver? Yes, and that is fine. Do people make mistakes on the track? Of course, we all do. Can close racing involve some taps and bumps? In he real world it shoudln't, but I know it sometimes does (and people get pissed). In GTP_rpm's words, GT5P is at best a cobbled together laggy solution for online racing at times and contact will happen, no matter how clean we try to be.

But still...doesn't running a team tag mean you are racing to some set of community standards? Some code? Some "gentleman's agreement" as is used in autoracing? You are generally going to try to be sporting and fair to your fellow drivers, tagged or not? Shouldn't risky moves where the chance of taking another racer out blatantly be frowned upon? Should some kind of fair-play standard apply? Why have team tags in the first place? Why go one and on about fair racing and complaining about punters if "it is only a game"?

What makes us, tagged drivers for various boards, different then untagged or causal drivers?

 

[GTP_rpm]

GTR_rpm - To those images, it is an "ok" (albeit iffy and somewhat unsporting) move. You had two wheels on the track. In my POV you looked like you were well past the yellow line. I was wrong, I admit it.

That being said why did you not go to the left? Where you would of had the "proper" line into turn 1 and I wouldn't have blocked you (blocking in my mind is unsporting). We raced clean for 4 laps, bumper to bumper, trading 1st and 2nd a few times due to slipstreaming. You had done this to me before, with two wheels in the grass that time yet you do it again knowing what I'm going to do? I never deviated from my line in all those images.

Edit 1: Using the pit exit as part of the track in that way (off the "race line") is iffy as well. In F1, if there was a car leaving the pit and you crossed that line in that way you would have been issued a penalty. You know that.

Edit 2: I just noticed this. Look at your track position in frame 18. Look how wide on the turn you are. That shows how much excess speed you carried into the turn after that iffy moved you pulled. Even if we had both been in the middle of the track and the yellow line wasn't even an issue... you still only gained that corner by carrying way too much speed into it. You would have taken out anyone to the outside of you, which I've watched you do before to others.

Also I "disappeared" from MSN because you wasted 20minutes of my time with your antics. I have no power to report anything to the mods here anymore as that has been stripped from me. That being said if you are going to use a team tag you need to race fair and clean. Even if the community seems to reason that move was "ok"...it still is rather iffy and unsporting behavior.

Re: the edits, Benannt...

No, it was not an ''iffy'' pass. It was very legit.

You also passed through the pitlane, infact, if I did go to your left I am entitled not to move out...I am entitled to force you into a tighter line...Fact.

Also, I didn't carry excess speed. The only reason why I end up way past my usual exit line, is because you pinched me into the grass, where, when under braking - I locked my inside wheels and this made me run outwide, hitting you off the circuit.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt, that you would realise you were squeezing me in (after I legally passed you) yet, you continued to squeeze me onto the grass...

Video will be up tomorow.

I seriously hope you back well away now, before Thanos-gtlmsquad comes and tries to back you up and befriend you...

 

[GTP_rpm]

If you need to go out and spend £300 on a camera to "resolve" these issues? Obviously you are having alot of these 'issues" to need that camera. Doesn't that say something about you driving?

It was you originally who made me want to do it

Edit:

Right, Benannt, I've said what's need to be said and shown, what had to be shown.

I'm not wasting anymore time on this.

Youtube will be updated tomorow guys, I'll link it in ORV topic, with no relation to this topic at all please.

(infact, I assume this'll be gone as soon as the early bird mod wakes up - and rightly so)

 

[Benannt]

No, it was not an ''iffy'' pass. It was very legit.

You also passed through the pitlane...

I never have passed anyone in the pitlane. I do cut to the inside in turn 1 at Suzuka and use the curbs there on entry. Depending on your line from the straight it can take you over the very end of the pit exit line. That is very different that using the pitlane directly after the wall like you did.

... if I did go to your left I am entitled not to move out...I am entitled to force you into a tighter line...Fact.

Yes you are and that is why I drive the tight line to defend from being squeezed in. I've already chosen the tight line an am prepared to brake for it. You coming on the inside of already the established tight line is iffy.

I didn't brake earlier than I normally would entering turn one in those stills (in this issue). We had been through this before a few weeks ago and you know the discussion we had then (which you blew off and spouted about what competition licenses you have and how that makes you better). So I figured you wouldn't pull the same stupid move again. Especially since we have five or six other races today where we both raced clean and fair with one another, all in equal cars (f430s) and all very good races (unless one of us got taking out by punters which happend a few times to both of us). Also to my POV (I race with bumper cam) you weren't ahead of me until I turned in and then I saw the yellow of you car. Should I have used my left/right arrows to look over? Probably? But honstly who can do that while going 230kph into a brakezone in the game? I use my mirrors but you were also in my blindspot which you should have known. I did know you were over there but given our history I figured you wouldn't do it again. I made mistakes, I'll admit that...but I still hold that your move was iffy and I held my line doing nothing wrong.

(infact, I assume this'll be gone as soon as the early bird mod wakes up - and rightly so)

You make a good point? What is the point of having a message board and a racing community if you can't discuss these issues. This is not a lame apology and doesn't belong in that thread, even if we posted it there it would be pulled. We are being civil here and this is hardly a flame war. Why can't these issues be discussed in the community so rules and etiquette can be established eventually where we don't need to bicker and fight. We both tried to resolve it offline off the board...but that didn't work. Why have a community if you can't discuss anything without the threat of the posts being removed or being banned/removed? I've gotten myself in enough trouble here speaking up about this issue already but I'm not going to let it drop. These sort of things need to be discussed and the attitude of "do whatever you wish on the track as long as you say sorry later" doesn't cut it.

 

[GTP_rpm]

That's fine.

That's your opinion of what you saw.

What I saw, is there for others to draw upon from pictures, and from tomorow - youtube clips!

Good night Benannt, no doubt we'll have some good races in the future.

 

[Paulie]

If you can't make a pass without contact, don't attempt the pass. Simple.

I you can make a pass cleanly do it, but if the other driver doesn't give you racing room don't beat yourself up over it.

I didn't pass you to the left, because the instinctive move is 99/100 to the inside. Outside passes are not only rare, but very risky - especially on a makeshift online racing service that GT5P provides us with, where lag is plentiful.

Well, now that you mention it, if you sit behind someone for a lap and find their weaknesses, and being a game there are probably races/corners you are much faster than your opponent (unlike real racing where everyone is very similar in pace), then it is possible to exploit those weaknesses and try slightly riskier overtakes at times.

 

[Benannt]

That's fine.

That's your opinion of what you saw.

What I saw, is there for others to draw upon from pictures, and from tomorow - youtube clips!

Good night Benannt, no doubt we'll have some good races in the future.

Yes, that is my opinion and interpretation of what I saw. I'm not the one with the expensive camera. I'm glad you have it on video and look forward to seeing our race for the prior 4 laps and I hope this aids in resolving this issue once and for all, not only for us personally since we disagree on what is legit, but for the community as a whole.

BTW, I think you missed this in all our "discussion" tonight. I did PM you on PSN earlier about this too, maybe you missed it. I know you were having connection issues today and were laggy. In our later races tonight you looked laggy again, not as bad as earlier in the day but bouncing around more. Maybe check that connection again?

 

[Benannt]

I you can make a pass cleanly do it, but if the other driver doesn't give you racing room don't beat yourself up over it.

I agree with you, kind-of.

In real life a race driver has the luxury of perception of their surroundings, a 270*'ish view around them (yes they have blindspots) and the fact that if they do something stupid their life and other driver(s) lives are on the line. Racing is risky and expensive and shunting a car and another driver's car is frowned upon. That often helps "moderate" risky moves on the track, mostly but not always.

In GT5p we don't have the luxury of real perception of what is around us the way you do in real life. yes we have mirrors and left/right/rear views but compared to real life and split second choices involved in close racing they fail to do us justice sometimes. Not to mention this is a game and none of us are risking our lives or livelihood racing. So risky moves happen more often.

That later part being said though...given this is a game and we are all trying to be fair shouldn't we be more reserved when making risky moves, due to us having more "blindspots" on track due to the realities of a screen based game?

EDIT: sorry for the double post moderators....

 

[Paulie]

I agree with you, kind-of.

In real life a race driver has the luxury of perception of their surroundings, a 270*'ish view around them (yes they have blindspots) and the fact that if they do something stupid their life and other driver(s) lives are on the line. Racing is risky and expensive and shunting a car and another driver's car is frowned upon. That often helps "moderate" risky moves on the track, mostly but not always.

In GT5p we don't have the luxury of real perception of what is around us the way you do in real life. yes we have mirrors and left/right/rear views but compared to real life and split second choices involved in close racing they fail to do us justice sometimes. Not to mention this is a game and none of us are risking our lives or livelihood racing. So risky moves happen more often.

That later part being said though...given this is a game and we are all trying to be fair shouldn't we be more reserved when making risky moves, due to us having more "blindspots" on track due to the realities of a screen based game?

EDIT: sorry for the double post moderators....

Yeah I know. I always try to predict where someone is. If I can't see them in my rear view mirror, or by looking left/right and I know they're there, I give room for where they might be. If under braking I see them appear in my mirror I know I can cut to the inside. I don't normally have problems any more regarding where other racers are, but problems are bound to arise on occasion which is why I don't take them personally.

 

[Benannt]

Yeah I know. I always try to predict where someone is. If I can't see them in my rear view mirror, or by looking left/right and I know they're there, I give room for where they might be. If under braking I see them appear in my mirror I know I can cut to the inside. I don't normally have problems any more regarding where other racers are, but problems are bound to arise on occasion which is why I don't take them personally.

I don't take an of this personally and I have nothing personal against GTP_rpm over this issue. I'm simply trying to establish that we as a "community" (not just GTP but all other boards, GTRP, GTLMsquad, KOR, GTI, GTPP...) need to establish some guidelines for these issues and general racing etiquette. The issue GTP_rpm and I have is just one of many that could happen and resolving them under discussion is the only way we are all going to establish any community guidelines.

Someone said earlier in this thread that "it is a just a game, we aren't racing for championship points or the like...". OK, that is true. But then why do we all complain about punters so much? Why have various teams and boards formed in order to try to find good clean and fair racing out there? If I wanted to play crash-up-derby (and i don't think I'm alone in this) there are plenty of arcade games out there that I can go do that. I however have no interest in that. The GT series, whether you agree or not, is a racing simulator and all of us racing for various teams/boards and being active in the OLR community are trying to make our form of racing fun for those of us that do take this a little more seriously that your average arcade game player.

That is why we need to establish and agree upon what "clean and fair driving is" and as much as we would like to make our racing as real as we can we also need to be realistic to the lackings of GT5p's design and it being a video game. We need to adjust our driving for the limits of the game and agree on some basic guidelines and what risk is and isn't.

 

[supersonic-88]

Yeah I know. I always try to predict where someone is. If I can't see them in my rear view mirror, or by looking left/right and I know they're there, I give room for where they might be. If under braking I see them appear in my mirror I know I can cut to the inside. I don't normally have problems any more regarding where other racers are, but problems are bound to arise on occasion which is why I don't take them personally.

Yeah i'm the same. Especially in the first corner at suzuka, i always try to leave room for people during passes when i lose sight of them. For example if someone into turn 1 has gone down the inside of me, i will purposely stay all the way to the left side of the track. And similarly, if i make a move on the inside, i will try and make sure to not drift towards the outside of the corner, just in case the other driver is still there.

 

[Paulie]

Yeah i'm the same. Especially in the first corner at suzuka, i always try to leave room for people during passes when i lose sight of them. For example if someone into turn 1 has gone down the inside of me, i will purposely stay all the way to the left side of the track. And similarly, if i make a move on the inside, i will try and make sure to not drift towards the outside of the corner, just in case the other driver is still there.

👍
In some corners it is tempting to push to the outside of the track after going up the inside, but you have to allow for the possibility that they're still there.
(And this doesn't have much to do with the topic on hand so I'll stop now.)

 

[Benannt]

Yeah i'm the same. Especially in the first corner at suzuka, i always try to leave room for people during passes when i lose sight of them. For example if someone into turn 1 has gone down the inside of me, i will purposely stay all the way to the left side of the track. And similarly, if i make a move on the inside, i will try and make sure to not drift towards the outside of the corner, just in case the other driver is still there.

And that is great. But there are times when there is a close race and there is an issue of what is fair and isn't. With two driver's involved there will always be two sides, in our game and in real life, but we can try to establish some guidelines. I'm not saying anyone should pull over for anyone else just because you have a close race nor shold someone deviated from their line if they have the corner. You can't ask any racer to do that in any form of racing. Given the limits of GT5p's design we only have so much view of what is going on and with close racing incidents will happen, especially when both driver's think they are right (like GTP_rpm and I both do in this issue). We need to define what acceptable risk is without limiting close racing. Not an easy thing to do by any means. It makes it even more hard when we have such a vast community of teams/boards and interest/skill levels.

 

[DaddyVDUB]

I dont see anything wrong with the pass ,You clearly had position if he wants to charge on outside & runnoff so be it. I would have done same thing you run t1 on inside.

 

[supersonic-88]

That is why we need to establish and agree upon what "clean and fair driving is" and as much as we would like to make our racing as real as we can we also need to be realistic to the lackings of GT5p's design and it being a video game. We need to adjust our driving for the limits of the game and agree on some basic guidelines and what risk is and isn't.

I agree that there should at least be a thread somewhere which states some racing guidelines (forgive me if that has already been made). If there are rules for GTP qualifiers & offline events, then there should be some online racing rules as well. The problem that i see happening though, is that in the creation of these rules, there may be too much debate for it to be possible. For example some guys on here seem to almost want touch free racing, which is impossible not only because its online (people make mistakes, lag, etc) but even in real life racing there is touches. Some cause accidents (which is what we don't want), but other times it just a little tap or some paint rubbing (which is perfectly fine in my opinion). What im getting at is that some people may want rules which are asking too much of the online racing community. Maybe there might be a way to regulate the rules or vote on them?

Also, i wouldn't want it to get to a stage where there are so many rules that the racing isnt fun anymore. Yes its a game & hell yes i want clean racing but i wouldn't want it to affect the racing too much.

 

[kart racer]

Here is my 2 bits.As a race offical in the ASN,FIA,and IKF I hope I can put some light on this.
On the opening lap,when it is a standing start,ALL paved surface is deemed to be legal race surface to avoid contact from/to another driver.After the start,all bounderies apply.From what I saw,you had the jump at the start and moved over to avoid rear endding him,once yougot pass you moved back onto the main surface.Looks like he tried a late brake move but you were clearly in front of him heading into thr first turn.From the stills,it looks like he turned into you drivers door and that is why he got the ghost.So in my eyes,this is a legit move.
Yes,things are different in a real race as your veiw around you is better but you can set up your wheel/ds3 to have a side view button that you can press for a split second to see beside you.( I do this all the time)Now I must also state that I cannot make out the other drivers name and this is fine with me because as a offical,you look at the drivers as a number,not a name or a face.Hope this helps.