Opinion: a long and boring post about the cardinal flaws of GT7 - overall a pretty good game that could be great

[szejok666]

To begin with - I have been playing Gran Turismo since 1998 and have spent thousands of hours in this series - so I think I can try to comment on what, in my opinion, GT7 has lost compared to previous games.

1. Probably the most important thing in a racing game - driving physics
Many of you probably think that the physics in GT7 are an evolution compared to GT6. In my opinion, the driving model in GT6 was better. Having played both games on same day, I think that steering in GT6 is softer, more nuanced and there's more feel to it. Suspension model in GT7 feels like downgrade (weight transfer feels barely present), snap oversteer is a problem and transition between gripping and sliding is not linear. Something is really wrong in this matter - it was updated quite quickly after release and many times after (at the game's premiere the driving model was really unfinished and often undriveable in my opinion), but it still feels as if the PD got lost and had no idea how to improve it - which leads to another issue, namely:
2. Tires or/and cars grip levels:
Back in GT6, I spent a lot of time comparing lap times and setting up in-game tires to match real-world performance. It was really well reproduced (at least for 1980+ cars) and after selecting the right type of tires (Comfort Medium/Hard/Soft for 99% of road cars in the game) and sometimes correcting the curb weight/weight distribution, it was possible to obtain very realistic lap times on individual tracks (in the range of 2-4 seconds on the Nurburgring and up to 1 second on Laguna Seca).
In GT7, realistic tires setting is also possible, but only for newer models. Somewhere around cars manufactured in 2005 (and older), it is impossible to select tires so that lap times and lateral G values are realistic - this applies to virtually all cars older than this date. A few examples:

• 2006 Ford GT - on CS is too grippy (7:24 on Nordschleife), on CM is not fast enough (7:49 on Nordschleife, achievable only with death wish). Real Life time is 7:40. Similar problem/times are with SLR McLaren, 2005 Viper SRT etc.
• 90's JDM Evergreens (NSX, Supra, Skyline and so on) - in GT6 they were almost perfectly modeled when it comes to performance (all with CM tires), in GT7 they're either too fast on CM and too slow on CH ( R34/R33/R32/Supra/300ZX/3000GT) or too slow on CM and too fast on CS (NSX-R '92 & 02, RX-7 Spirit R)
• 1970's and older - most vintage cars do not have tire options that match realistic grip - for example a '68 Hemi Charger will not achieve 0.79 lateral G on stock tires - from tests from that period 0.68 - 0.70G is the maximum. Here comes another problem, present since around GT4:

3. Longitudinal grip - especially visible with CH tires:
cars have very poor (unrealistic) grip when accelerating, while having quite high lateral grip. Achieving 0-60 or 0-400m times with tires that behave most realistically in corners is impossible.
And finally - a purely visual issue, but problematic because it takes away the joy of watching replays in GT7.
The rotation of the front wheels does not keep up (visually) with the proper turning of the car. More precisely, the car turns and reacts according to the controller input, but the front wheels do it much slower. This is also visible in the view from the car cabin (steering wheel movements do not correspond to the turning of the car). This is best seen during drifting and very slow driving with quick changes of direction (lock-to-lock) - the car turns faster than the wheels.

You may think I'm nitpicking, but it seems to me that if PD can properly reproduce details such as transparency and the texture of the glass on for instance a headlight, it's strange that it ignores such important issues.

 

[Nakano219]

Suspension model in GT7 feels like downgrade (weight transfer feels barely present)

I'm curious, could you expand on what makes you come to this conclusion in particular? I'll admit I'm not an expert, but all the criticism of weight transfer in GT7 I've read is generally that there's too much of it, rather than too little.

 

[szejok666]

I'm curious, could you expand on what makes you come to this conclusion in particular? I'll admit I'm not an expert, but all the criticism of weight transfer in GT7 I've read is generally that there's too much of it, rather than too little.

To be fair, I'm also not an expert. I'm also not a engineer or a programmer, and this is my personal opinion, so I can be wrong
But, and this is based only on experience with road cars with road tires in the game (I'm not into race cars in particular, but on the other hand AMG GT Black Edition on Sport Soft tires is fairly close, but nonetheless).
I suspect the weight transfer itself in game may actually be correct, or even exaggerated - I don't really know - but due to suspension modelling in GT7 (let's not forget that in GT6 suspension model was developed with help from KW) and tires grip problems is not pronounced good enough. Hard to tell but the best examples what I'm on about that comes to my mind are:
1. 2002 Silvia S15 - in GT6 with CM tires I can literally throw this car in corners and play with weight transfer all day long (especially on tracks with elevation changes like Deep Forest). I feel what's going on with the car, feel the limit and manage it. It seems very natural. In GT7 on same tires, even with the fact that lap times are faster, the car feels numb and handles in corners more like a brick to me. Is I've written before - it could be due to tire model.
2. My beloved '68 (GT7) or '70 (GT6) Charger - yes it's not exactly the same model but the basics are the same. In GT6 car is much softer, feels heavier but it's quite managable in corners (CH tires). I feel weight shifting around and can use it (very handy in long corners). Off course, due to massive weight, lack of grip and crude suspension everything is happening at much slower rate (and with less speed), but it's fairly easy to feel and understand. '68 model in GT7 has too stiff suspension in my opinion (comparing with real-life footage there is not enough body roll) and slides all the time. No feel, and constant snap oversteer. The car isn't "talking" to me at all.
Like I've said before, that is only my view, but for me something is off in that matter. GT6 was much better at this, even with it's own flaws (default 0.60 toe in for rear wheels in all cars for example).

 

[Lomic]

'68 model in GT7 has too stiff suspension in my opinion (comparing with real-life footage there is not enough body roll) and slides all the time. No feel, and constant snap oversteer. The car isn't "talking" to me at all.

have you tried tuning the suspension to come closer to what you would like to experience ? Maybe there is a way.

 

[szejok666]

have you tried tuning the suspension to come closer to what you would like to experience ? Maybe there is a way.

Yes, I've tried, and there is a way to make it softer, but the problem is once Fully Adjustable Suspension is installed all individual car handling characteristics are pretty much lost. Also, I find it really hard to setup a car suspension properly. I'm not really good at this, and it's hard for me to make car "composed" and with all four corners working sort of "together".

 

[Lomic]

Check this : https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/praianos-tunes-settings-for-gt7.404868/page-327#post-14131584

It may help.

 

[Ande3200]

For me at least the driving feels much better In Gt7 campared to previous games, but even more important than that is how much better the cars sounds

 

[HarVee]

I find the tire grip fine in GT7, overall it's much more refined and natural feeling than in GT6. Going back to GT6 is a really difficult adjustment for me because the grip levels are drastically different. GT6 also suffers from what I call "ice grass", where one touch of the grass and you'll go sliding. Very unrealistic.

Also I find the sensitivity (on a controller) is much better in GT7. I can modulate the throttle easier than in GT6.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I don't know what is OP's skill level, what controller he uses, and how many hours he has driven GT7, but it can take a while to get used to new physics. After every physics update I always redo a few license/mission/circuit experience to re-familiarise myself. Let alone jumping straight from GT6 to GT7. Reminds me when I jumped straight from GT2 to GT5P back in the day. At first I would've said GT2 physics was better too But obviously that's not the case.

It's been such a long time since I last drove GT6, but I remember going from GT6 to Sport the physics has improved a lot. And while GT7 release day physics was awful, it's a lot better now and definitely an improvement over GT Sport as well. So I find it hard to believe GT6 has superior feel, even though the tyre model still has a lot to improve and weight transfer in MR/RR cars need to be toned down a bit.

Key points:

Tyres - I agree this is the weak point. Longitudinal grip is lower than lateral grip as you said for each tyre compound, which makes it hard to match to real life. Honestly until PD gives us actual tyre brands instead of generic compounds this will always be a problem. Tyres are notoriously hard to simulate (even F1 teams get it wrong from time to time), but when even basic adjustment like tyre pressure are missing you know it's not great.

Suspension - older GT games have always felt overdamped for me. It's very hard to loosen a car by sudden steering inputs (e.g. Scandi flicks are less effective than real life). Also lift off oversteer in FF cars were practically non existent. On release day GT7 went too far in the other direction and the weight transfer was totally overkill. Even a Civic Type R feels like an MR car back then. They progressively toned it down and now I think it's a good balance, except for a few problematic MR/RR cars.

Chassis - you can really feel the difference between an old car and modern car in terms of "floppiness". Classic cars and muscle cars feel wobblier. Whereas in older games they just feel like they have less grip but still have the same stiffness as a modern carbon tub race car. As a result the Rigidity Improvement upgrade actually does improve things instead of just increasing understeer in every car.

Ride height - previous games have a reverse rake bug where max front/min rear reduces understeer. This has been fixed. Unfortunately it goes the other way now and the fastest tunes have the rear high up in the air (but you don't have to go this far unless you're going for the last few tenths). Also put your ride height too low and the wheel will rub the fender and hinder your ability to turn. This has never been simulated before.

Engine - this is kinda subjective but I can feel torque a lot better in GT7 than previous GT games. It's difficult to describe but you can judge when to shift just from your virtual butt dyno. Whereas in GTS I need to consult the power curve first. Also turbo lag is definitely more of a factor. Drive the Escudo in GT6 and GT7 and it's much harder to modulate the throttle now because of the spiky turbo. Power restrictor affects power curve in a more dynamic way instead of just flattening it after a certain rpm.

Brakes - the only thing where I feel GT6 might have an edge. ABS off isn't great in GT7. You cannot adjust front/rear brake strength separately. Also trail braking is very sensitive now. You really need to come off the brakes at the right moment or you just understeer off. It's harder to blend braking and steering and keep the car on the edge of that friction circle. Previously you can gradually reduce brake and put steering lock at the same time. Now you have to reduce your brakes to 20% or lower before starting turning or you just get oodles of understeer. Someone who drives with a smooth arc racing line is gonna be at a disadvantage. You really need to "V-shape" your corners to get the best laptimes.

Downforce - at the start this was also overdone. Now it's toned back a bit and we are pretty good. Although dirty air is still slightly too exaggerated in Gr.3 cars and above. Also now you have wind direction effects. In terms of aero parts, fitting a diffuser is useful now because it gives downforce at very little cost of top speed (in GT6 you instantly lose 20-30 km/h which makes the extra grip advantage worthless in most cars). Unfortunately you still have impossible adjustment ranges (hundreds of clicks when F1 cars probably have 10-20 real life) and unrealistic top speeds for some cars (e.g. McLaren F1).

Other stuff - of course a few things are still the same. LSD values are still a mystery why it's from 5-60 and we still have endless debates whether it's possible to have it fully open/locked. Gearbox tuning is still a pain. Hybrid deployment modes are still automatically controlled. Modern chassis electronics like torque vectoring and e-diff are still poorly implemented (making lots of modern supercars handle worse than they should). You can abuse downshifts to slow down the car without locking tyres or causing massive engine damage. Rally physics still suck. Driving in full wet conditions still has no grip feeling. Cars still bounce off each other like pinball during collisions. Wallriding doesn't slow you down as much as it should.

So yeah, a lot of improvements but still a long way to go in some areas. It's getting close though and overall once OP gets used to it I think he'll agree it's miles better than GT6. My yardstick is always Assetto Corsa and before GT7 I always have to reprogram my brain when switching between the 2 games. Now I can transition quite effortlessly between the two. Also the last physics update greatly improved the road feel FFB. Tracks don't feel billiard table smooth anymore.

Anyway, physics discussion is always complicated and there's bound to be disagreements. The main physics discussion thread is almost 200 pages and there are still people arguing. But I hope this can give OP a bit of summary and guidance. Give it time and you'll come to enjoy GT7 physics eventually, I promise

 

[Sir Crashalot]

In GT7, realistic tires setting is also possible, but only for newer models. Somewhere around cars manufactured in 2005 (and older), it is impossible to select tires so that lap times and lateral G values are realistic - this applies to virtually all cars older than this date. A few examples:

• 2006 Ford GT - on CS is too grippy (7:24 on Nordschleife), on CM is not fast enough (7:49 on Nordschleife, achievable only with death wish). Real Life time is 7:40. Similar problem/times are with SLR McLaren, 2005 Viper SRT etc.
• 90's JDM Evergreens (NSX, Supra, Skyline and so on) - in GT6 they were almost perfectly modeled when it comes to performance (all with CM tires), in GT7 they're either too fast on CM and too slow on CH ( R34/R33/R32/Supra/300ZX/3000GT) or too slow on CM and too fast on CS (NSX-R '92 & 02, RX-7 Spirit R)
• 1970's and older - most vintage cars do not have tire options that match realistic grip - for example a '68 Hemi Charger will not achieve 0.79 lateral G on stock tires - from tests from that period 0.68 - 0.70G is the maximum. Here comes another problem, present since around GT4:

Where do you get the IRL times from?

 

[Keef]

The tire model definitely has its problems, and nobody really knows how exactly PD is modeling suspension systems, but overall I think GT7's simulation is more nuanced and complex than any previous game, despite its problems.

For example the front tires in particular react appropriately to slip angle adjustments. Both the controller and obviously a steering wheel will allow the front wheels to be turned more than necessary in a corner, past the ideal slip angle. Back off on steering input a little bit and you'll notice a slight improvement in grip. It's a fine enough detail that I can sense the change even when using gamepad and it has led to much finer control of my steering, something I never tuned into on older games, presumably because that level of detail in the tire model simply didn't exist. Detail like this seems to be the source of complaints of many inexperienced players who are simply pushing their cars too hard due to lack of techinque.

I definitely don't think it's fully accurate, perhaps less accurate than 5 and 6, but it's more detailed.

 

[wheelhp]

On the tire model.. It's definetly more detailed than GT Sport, but yeah desperately needs a few more updates to get it right.

And yeah a while ago I got excited thinking GT7 would be a real evolution for the series and come with tire pressure adjustments on all four corners... never been more disappointed when it did not..

Edit: OOOOOOHH 1111 posts!! first !! amazing accomplishment!! LOL

 

[Meythia]

Also put your ride height too low and the wheel will rub the fender and hinder your ability to turn. This has never been simulated before.

And it is stupid doing that.

driver to mechanic "put the height down by 20cm"
mechanic to driver "I will need an excavator to do that, this is below tarmac level"
driver to mechanic "where is the problem? I say, you do"

Or just saying: the team would see that the tyres rub and either tell you or simply dont do it at all.

 

[szejok666]

Where do you get the IRL times from?

FastestLaps have quite big collection of lap times, also Wikipedia is quite good when it comes to Nordschleife. I also have decent amount of Best Motoring videos

I definitely don't think it's fully accurate, perhaps less accurate than 5 and 6, but it's more detailed.

I agree on that

 

[szejok666]

Also I find the sensitivity (on a controller) is much better in GT7. I can modulate the throttle easier than in GT6.

This is very much true, on controller throttle modulation is much easier.

Check this : https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/praianos-tunes-settings-for-gt7.404868/page-327#post-14131584

It may help.

I use Praiano tunes (for racing, normally i prefer stock cars) since the days of I don't know... GT4?

I don't know what is OP's skill level, what controller he uses, and how many hours he has driven GT7, but it can take a while to get used to new physics. After every physics update I always redo a few license/mission/circuit experience to re-familiarise myself. Let alone jumping straight from GT6 to GT7. Reminds me when I jumped straight from GT2 to GT5P back in the day. At first I would've said GT2 physics was better too But obviously that's not the case.

in GT6 I have at the moment 185634,1 kilometres driven (Yes, I've checked) . In Gt7 about 87000, but a lot of it's due to Tomahawk grind at Tokyo and EPSON NSX at Sardegna.

Ok, let's discuss key points (a lot of them)

Tires - I think we agree on that, tire pressure adjustment is available in Forza as I think you know, and it doesn't work very well afaik. I think in Gt7 it would make additional problems, so I'm not convinced it should be implemented at this stage. They should better fix what's broken in the first place.

Suspension - You're right with Dampers and FF Cars. Still, I think in GT7 suspensions (especially on older cars) are way too stiff. Actually, standard cars in GT6 are often way softer than premium models. MR cars in GT7 have too much understeer in my opinion, but it may be because of the tires.

Chassis - i'm not feeling it to be honest. By the way this is the aspect that Forza (FM7 and FM23) does really well in my opinion.

Ride Height - Fact

Engine - 100% agree, especially in turbocharged cars, even stock like JZA80 Supra or Silvia K's finally have Turbo Lag

Brakes - I actually think that ABS Off is better modelled in GT7, but it's harder to use because of tire model. Maybe there is also a problem with brake bias (in stock cars). GT6 is easier, but feels like there is some kind of invisible help/damping in Inputs.

Downforce - This isn't working well for stock cars since I think GT2 The speeds I can achieve in Nordschleife (last straight) are waaaay faster than IRL (Sport Auto magazine has this info on their Supertests graphics). Top speeds are also innacurate.

Other Stuff - True, with LSD also comes a problem, that what was before 5/20/10 or 7/30/15 is now 5/15/5 (or close) as default, but actually works like previous values from past games. Go figure

The most annoying in that matter (overall driving experience/physics) is, that couple of relatively small adjustments/changes would fix at least 50% of the problems - at least I feel that way.

And Sorry for Double Post

Oh, and I would like to add two more things, which I've forgotten about in OP. In GT7 we finally have lateral G values in car settings menu (In GT6 I had to drive in circles at Streets of Willow and the use Data Analyzer )
Interesting fact is, that at least in modern cars tires choice according to lateral G at 60km/h (I think that is more less the speed at 100 diameter skidpad) works really well. I've been using Motor Trend test as guide and seems to be working well (lap times at Laguna Seca are within a 1-1,5 second). Comparison tests are best indicator, because then we have same conditions. It also shows the problem with cars I've mentioned before - for example 2006 Ford GT. On CM it's 0,89G, on CS 1,00. IRL it's perfecty in-between according to various tests (0,93-0,95G).
Also, differences in Lateral G are bigger in GT7 than GT6, which often creates a problem in tire choice. For Example Ford GT is 0,80G on CH, 0,89 on CM, and 1,00 on CS. So the gap is about 0,10G (which is a looooot).
In GT6 the gap was about 0,06 to 0,07G. That also meant, that even on CH most of pre 1980's cars were too grippy in GT6, but on the other hand more modern ones were wasier to set right - In theory at least, because most of them we very accurate on CM (I mean sports cars from 90's and 2000. First ones that were most accurate on CS - 2002 Enzo and M3 CSL, then '09 ZR1, 458 and so on. Only a few as far as I remember were fast enough only on SH - Aventador, MPC/12C, Nismo GTR, Viper ACR and Huayra).

 

[anh165]

The tire model definitely has its problems, and nobody really knows how exactly PD is modeling suspension systems, but overall I think GT7's simulation is more nuanced and complex than any previous game, despite its problems.

Compared to a 20+ year old game like GT3 using a T300 RS wheel, there is a common easy pick up & play feel to GT7, and among most GT games. You can push a car to 90% of it's limits without concentrating or correcting your inputs, that's the sweet spot of simcade racing.

The coded 'physics' start to manifest when you push the car nearer to what you need to win gold in license tests or competitive time attacks, and against other skilled hardcore sim racers.

It is at this level, only the minority of the GT userbase play the game. Sony are far more interested in the showcasing and accessibility to attract the casual gamers which is where the money is ...

 

[Sir Crashalot]

FastestLaps have quite big collection of lap times, also Wikipedia is quite good when it comes to Nordschleife. I also have decent amount of Best Motoring videos

I see. But keep in mind that those infos are not always what they seem to be. For example, cars could have ECU tuning without that fact beeing mentioned. "Official" times by manufacturers are set by professional drivers and the cars used are often modified (weight reduced, upgraded brakes, different aero settings, different tires and so on) but those modifications are not (always) communicated.
And, most important: Even if a game could simulate a car and a track with 100% accuracy you would always be faster in the game. And that's simply because you would always be much more careful in a real car because there's no retry button IRL😉

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Compared to a 20+ year old game like GT3 using a T300 RS wheel, there is a common easy pick up & play feel to GT7, and among most GT games. You can push a car to 90% of it's limits without concentrating or correcting your inputs, that's the sweet spot of simcade racing.

The coded 'physics' start to manifest when you push the car nearer to what you need to win gold in license tests or competitive time attacks, and against other skilled hardcore sim racers.

It is at this level, only the minority of the GT userbase play the game. Sony are far more interested in the showcasing and accessibility to attract the casual gamers which is where the money is ...

Any game would have physics weirdness when you start pushing to its limits and getting close to WR times. Anything from Mario Kart to Assetto Corsa. It's not a good test of realism. I'm not the fastest driver out there (in TTs I'm usually 2-3% off the top guys), but even I can start feeling the weird quirks of GT physics. But even with all the problems I mentioned above, I still say it's the best GT has gotten. In terms of accessibility, well you can put RS tyres and set auto steer and auto brake and the car will practically drive itself for you, so no issues there.

In fact, realistic physics doesn't mean more difficult. Assetto is a hardcore sim and look at how popular it is on PC. Realistic is intuitive. Especially if you have good FFB. On the other hand I have more problems driving in simcades like GRID or NFS Shift because of how wonky the physics is, despite those games being aimed more at a casual market.

I see. But keep in mind that those infos are not always what they seem to be. For example, cars could have ECU tuning without that fact beeing mentioned. "Official" times by manufacturers are set by professional drivers and the cars used are often modified (weight reduced, upgraded brakes, different aero settings, different tires and so on) but those modifications are not (always) communicated.
And, most important: Even if a game could simulate a car and a track with 100% accuracy you would always be faster in the game. And that's simply because you would always be much more careful in a real car because there's no retry button IRL😉

Indeed, real life lap times are only meant as a guide. As long as you're within the ballpark of a few seconds that's good enough proof of the game's simulation. There are so many factors that it's impossible to line up everything exactly IRL and in game, it's unrealistic to expect laptimes to match down to the millisecond. In fact 2 different games can produce similar laptimes, but have wildly different feel. I would take a game that's 2 second off but offers a more realistic feel than one that matches laptime exactly but feels weird to drive.

Last time we had a Civic Type R TT at the Nordschleife where we need to beat the real life time, I made a huge post about the discrepancies between the in game car and real one which made the time harder to beat. But you know a lot of fanboys just blindly think GT is the most realistic sim ever, and if you can't beat the time, the problem must be you, not the car

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