ORCA - Coming Soon: SILVIA RM SPEC CUP!

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Johnnypenso
Here's something exciting.💡💡 Just for the sake of argument, if we go with the Impreza/Evo battle there's also an Imprezza and Evo TC car. I believe they have different levels of downforce but if there was by some chance similar levels of difference in performance in the TC version of the cars you could have a 4 car series, with half the races on say "street" tracks or shorter tracks for the street cars and the other half on true race tracks with the race cars.

I did drive both TC cars when they first came out, and the Impreza was better but I didn't measure lap times when equalized by pp.
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So you're proposing running two street cars and two race cars in the same race? If I went with a plan like this I would like to limit it to just two cars total, one that's slightly faster and one that's slightly slower. I see what you did there, trying to use the tracks to balance out the cars but if somebody that drives a street car has to miss two of the street courses they would be at a big disadvantage on the race courses.

I've driven both the TC cars and I think the Evo TC is at a rather large disadvantage to the Impreza (IIRC). But there are other versions of these cars available that are very closely matched. One example is the RM versions of both cars, the Impreza RM has 5 more hp and is 15kg lighter than the Evo RM so they should be close but the Evo would be slightly slower (in equal hands). The 'Preza has more torque though, so that could be an issue. Requires testing, but they look good on paper.
 
BrandonW77
So you're proposing running two street cars and two race cars in the same race? If I went with a plan like this I would like to limit it to just two cars total, one that's slightly faster and one that's slightly slower. I see what you did there, trying to use the tracks to balance out the cars but if somebody that drives a street car has to miss two of the street courses they would be at a big disadvantage on the race courses.

I've driven both the TC cars and I think the Evo TC is at a rather large disadvantage to the Impreza (IIRC). But there are other versions of these cars available that are very closely matched. One example is the RM versions of both cars, the Impreza RM has 5 more hp and is 15kg lighter than the Evo RM so they should be close but the Evo would be slightly slower (in equal hands). The 'Preza has more torque though, so that could be an issue. Requires testing, but they look good on paper.
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No, not in the same race, the 2 street cars on half the tracks and the two race cars on the other half of the tracks. It would only work if the gap was similar between the race and street versions of the cars respectively. So for example you might do the street Evo/Impreza at Monaco, Madrid and Tsukuba and the race Evo/Impreza at Trial Mountain, Nurb GP/D and Monza. First half of the season could be street, second half the race car version. Would add an interesting twist to the series, never seen anything like that done before, relatively simple, but again only works if the race versions line up with the street versions in terms of performance differential.

I don't really drive either car in the game, but the times I have, I always found the Impreza the better of the two mainly because it's more responsive and grippy. The Evo always seems a little sluggish, which would account for it being a little slower.

If you wanted to add another little twist to it, you could have a champion for each version of the car and an overall champion, giving the potential for 3 different winners. Points in the first half of the series don't get transferred to the second half directly, but more along the lines of a Nascar chase setup, where first place in the first half gets "X" points regardless of how many actual points he gets in the series so one can't build up a huge lead heading into the second half of the series, nor will anyone lower down be at too big of a disadvantage. You could set up a points minimum for the first half so that if you at least made all the races but didn't finish too high, you can't get less than "X" points to carry into the second half. You might also leave the faster drivers in the slower cars for the second half but also demote anyone who consistently finished in the top 3 in the faster cars as well. If Driver "A" turns out to be fastest in the fast car in the first three races, you'd like to have the opportunity to subject them to some kind of equalization process to even things up.
 
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Remember JP, I'm trying to keep things simple and minimize the amount of work required on my end. Having 3 different winners per night and 2 different sets of cars for the season does not sound like a good way to simplify things. I'm not saying they're bad ideas, just that I'm not willing to put forth the necessary effort.
 
I vote for JP to be the first one with a speed penalty. How about a huge boat anchor chained to the back of his car ;).

I think a 2 car series would be a cool way to go. The key would be to get 2 cars that are far enough apart to even the field, but not so far apart that it divides it. The TC cars would be nice since they are race cars and you can put a darn number on the side of it. Could do a qualifying race in a street car version (say of the Subaru) as week 1, no points. Top half take the slower of the two TCs, the bottom half take the faster of the TCs. If the bottom half gets a win, they move down to the slower car for the rest of the season. The other topic of conversation would have to focus on if a driver does not race in the first race. Another thought for deciding which car, which driver gets would be to do a single run and see where they are compared to others. Maybe a 6-8 lap run, average the best 3 times. Something tells me I am not helping, just making it more complicated ;).
 
Whatever is decided for helping less talented driver who are interested in a clean racing experince online should help the new serie to have a broader appeal. I hope to be able to join that type of event.
 
A concern I have with a multiple car series is I would think you would need a near full field for it to be exciting and not just hot lapping.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but why not bump it down to one or two races per week tops. Sure some people will not be able to make it, possibility me, but it would be much more manageable than the four I think we did last season...and more practice fun sessions.
 
BrandonW77
Remember JP, I'm trying to keep things simple and minimize the amount of work required on my end. Having 3 different winners per night and 2 different sets of cars for the season does not sound like a good way to simplify things. I'm not saying they're bad ideas, just that I'm not willing to put forth the necessary effort.
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I guess I'm not explaining myself properly. Everything would be exactly the same as you want to do now. One set of races each night, however many times per week, one winner each night, everything the same as it was before or whatever you want now. Two different cars each night, faster guys in the slower car, but still only one overall winner. Driving the slower car doesn't make you in a different race, same race, just slightly handicapped. You do that for three weeks, then you make one switch, one time, for the rest of the season, from the street version of the car to the RM or TC version of the car. Last three races of the season exactly the same as the first three, only in the race version of the car.

In other words, everything is exactly what you want, just switch to the race version of the cars mid season, to add a definite twist to the series. And again, it only works if the RM/TC version of the cars are relatively the same performance level apart as the street versions we pick, at the PP level we choose for the race versions.

The stuff about a winner in the first half and the second half isn't complicated, whoever has the most points is the winner. Forget about the Cup Chase idea. So you could have a Street Evo/Impreza Champion, an RM Evo/Impreza Champion and an overall Evo/Impreza Champion. More winners = more fun!! A championship within a championship and no more work than typing out the words "Driver A is the Street Evo/Impreza Champion"
 
I would just like to add that, I think slower and small cars on good tires make for better racing. Just make driving easier and leaves more room on track.
In the Alfa series we had very grippy tires (SS), made for some close (clean) battles.
 
TomBrady
I agree. Even when people have no intention of racing dirty, when there are consequences other than just having to give a contact concession, people are almost always less inclined to go for that daring pass, that they know they probably shouldn't try. The idea of having to stop at the pits and end up in last place usually keeps everyone in check. I've learned this from playing iracing, which has some of the most unforgiving damage you'll ever find.

I'm not saying the racers here are dirty, we all make mistakes, push a little too hard, etc. I'm just saying it's human nature to be more careful when there are tougher consequences. In public lobbies, heavy damage sucks just because any random person who doesn't know or doesn't care can ruin the race for someone but I figure since we all want the same thing (clean, fair, and fun racing), why not take advantage? I don't think heavy damage would be out of the question.

Like you said, drive it like you own it. I don't think it's a matter of anyone doing things on purpose or not, I just think people need to be as cautious as they would in real life. Some people (myself included) have trouble doing that without real consequences, and I think heavy damage would be a start but it's just a suggestion. Whatever is decided, I'll be in for some racing when the series returns
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Id like to say a few things, first of all thanks for backing me up, second if a Giants fan and Pats fan can find commen ground on this then nobody else should have a problem, GO GIANTS. Finally what if we ran shuffle races when we are not involved in a points series, that way everyone has a the same chances of getting a fast car.
 
FYI. I hauled my TC Evo and Impreza off the delivery truck, changed the oil and then equalized them both to 555 PP, the EVO's lower PP level. Because of it's higher stock downforce the Impreza is penalized 60 hp and yet, on the test course, it was only .600 behind in the 0-1000 metre test. With it's better cornering ability and only slightly slower straightline speed it could potentially be a match for the Evo, +/- 1-2 seconds.
 
Nothing like some solid data, thanks for the testing JP. If I get a chance tonight or tomorrow I will run both at TM to get some average times for me. If a couple others do that and post we will have some more data. What tires would we even be thinking about running? SS, RH? I plan on running 10 laps each, post my best 4.
 
I prefer SS tires. We can make these cars as even/non-even as we want using the power limiter so that's not an issue. The real thing we need to figure out is how we would decide who goes in the fast car and who goes in the slower car. There are a number of ways we could do this and each has its pros and cons. You know me though, I like to keep things simple, fair and quick.

I don't want a system that changes from race to race, I want something that's determined before the first points race and people stay in that car for the duration of the season. If new members join they would likely go in the fast car by default but could be relegated to the slower car if they prove to be fast out of the box. This whole thing is also making the huge assumption that people won't take offense or be upset about being put in the "slower" car. Since it's all in the interest of making the field even I think most people won't have a problem with it, but you never know.
 
BrandonW77
I prefer SS tires. We can make these cars as even/non-even as we want using the power limiter so that's not an issue. The real thing we need to figure out is how we would decide who goes in the fast car and who goes in the slower car. There are a number of ways we could do this and each has its pros and cons. You know me though, I like to keep things simple, fair and quick.

I don't want a system that changes from race to race, I want something that's determined before the first points race and people stay in that car for the duration of the season. If new members join they would likely go in the fast car by default but could be relegated to the slower car if they prove to be fast out of the box. This whole thing is also making the huge assumption that people won't take offense or be upset about being put in the "slower" car. Since it's all in the interest of making the field even I think most people won't have a problem with it, but you never know.
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So you're saying that using the power limiter to create a PP differential is on the table, because I thought it was one of those things that made it too complicated? Because if that's on the table, then this is a piece of cake. We just need to figure out the cars you want to use, possible tracks, some other parameters and the testing can begin. I thought you wanted to equate the PP so we didn't have to do a track reset but this would make it so much easier to balance the cars.

I for one don't mind going in the slower car if it's determined that's where I belong. How we determine this will be tricky, not for the fastest of the fast, that should be easy, but determining how far apart the cars are and what the cut off is....that'll be tricky.

As an aside, Mike from the MCRC ran a hot lap contest at Nurb GP/D. For a week or so, pick any car and run a 1:53.5-1:54 lap on CS tires at the lowest PP possible. For the TT part of the contest, post your times, car, PP level, lowest PP wins. So you pick one of your favourite lower powered cars (stock) and detune it to say 410 pp and you run a 1:52.9, detune to 400pp and run a 1:53.7 and that car is in. You can try as many cars as you like. Four of us gave it a shot, we all ended up in different cars with different PP levels from 393 I believe up to 430.

Phase 2 you head to the track for a race. So we had a Dodge Hemi Truck, Mugen S2000, Volks Scirocco, Volks Golf, and an Elise for couple of races. 5 races, 4 different winners. biggest gap first to last in 6 laps (just under 12 minutes) was 4 seconds, multiple passes for lead and position every race. It was the closest racing I've ever had because the cars weren't spec, weren't equated by PP but were equated by time so you knew that everyone was capable of running the exact same times as you, in spite of their different car and different talent level. Was probably the best racing I've ever had, even when I finished last...lol.

So this type of thing can work is my point!!!
 
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Johnnypenso
So you're saying that using the power limiter to create a PP differential is on the table, because I thought it was one of those things that made it too complicated? Because if that's on the table, then this is a piece of cake. Just name the cars you want to use and away we go. I thought you wanted to equate the PP so we didn't have to do that.
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I don't want to have cars with different PP's that require me making multiple changes to the regulations during an event to let different cars in to the track. That doesn't mean we can't use the limiter to even the cars up.

Example, I tested the RM Evo and RM WRX last night (not fully broken in). The Evo was the slower of the two and was 506pp, the WRX was 518pp and was consistently 1-1.5 seconds faster around Nurb GP/D. I dialed the WRX back to 513pp and that took about a half second off making it 0.5-1 second faster than the Evo. So if we decided that was a good gap between the two I could set the limit to 513pp and be done with it. The Evo is 506pp and with tuning-prohibited it can't go above that so no worries, WRX drivers would dial their limiter back a smidgen at the beginning of the season and they'd be done with it. That's simple, I have no problem doing something like this.
(Note: these cars weren't broken in so these pp values are just for proof of concept)
(Second Note: The RM Evo destroys the front tires so this pairing isn't likely to happen)
 
So we can still have two different PP's but in your scenario the car with the lowest PP has to be the one that is not engine limited so we don't need a reset and don't need to verify anything? That's a bit limiting but could be workable.
 
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Johnnypenso
So we can still have two different PP's but in your scenario the car with the lowest PP has to be the one that is not engine limited so we don't need a reset and don't need to verify anything? That's a bit limiting but could be workable.
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Correct. Why is it limiting though? Seems like the simplest solution to me and accomplishes what we need/want without any extra procedures. The car with the higher PP would go to the slower drivers and the car with the lower PP would go to the fastest drivers, hopefully resulting in a nicely balanced field.
 
The car with the higher PP would go to the slower drivers and the car with the lower PP would go to the fastest drivers, hopefully resulting in a nicely balanced field.
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This makes the flawed assumption that a lower pp car is necessarily slower around a specific track.
 
CC570
This makes the flawed assumption that a lower pp car is necessarily slower around a specific track.
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There would be plenty of testing to confirm that the lower PP car is the slowest. In our tests so far the Evo is consistently the slower of the two around a track, in both the RM and TC trim. You're correct, it may not apply to all cars, but in the case of the Impreza and the Evo it seems that just about every Evo is slightly slower than a comparable Impreza.
 
BrandonW77
Correct. Why is it limiting though? Seems like the simplest solution to me and accomplishes what we need/want without any extra procedures. The car with the higher PP would go to the slower drivers and the car with the lower PP would go to the fastest drivers, hopefully resulting in a nicely balanced field.
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I was thinking it would only work if the engine limited car was the faster one, but it would actually work even if it was the slower car so I have no idea what I was thinking...lol..:scared:

CC570
This makes the flawed assumption that a lower pp car is necessarily slower around a specific track.
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It's possible that a car that is a little better than another car on one track may be slightly better or slightly worse, comparitively, on different tracks. There is no perfect formula other than testing each track independently and setting PP independently for each track but I think that's more work than is needed for slight differences that may or may not occur. I will probably test the selected cars on the biggest and smallest tracks for comparison purposes anyway just to see what the differences are.
 
Speaking of......I'm at a dealership right now (hopefully) finalizing a deal on a 2009 WRX......in World Rally Blue! :sly:
 
By the way, I suggest racing the Evo RM with the Impreza TC and the Impreza RM with the Evo TC since the first combination is more track based while the second pair is more rally-based.
 
Johnnypenso
I was thinking it would only work if the engine limited car was the faster one, but it would actually work even if it was the slower car so I have no idea what I was thinking...lol..:scared:
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I was right the first time...lol. If you want to have it so you set a PP level and there's no way to cheat the system, the car that's at it's PP limit has to be the slower, lower PP car. It'll probably turn out that way anyway but this is GT5 so anything is possible:sly:.
 
Meet my new baby! :)

imageiin.jpg
 
carracerptp
Nice, now all we need is a race between you and another car.... maybe a (Evo) driving member :sly: Battle of the rally imports đź‘Ť
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Owens has an Evo and lives less than 2 hours away. He has about twice the horsepower I do though. :( They had a STI there too, same year, but it was $6k more and way higher insurance. my insurance only went up $13/month for the WRX. đź‘Ť
 
BrandonW77
Owens has an Evo and lives less than 2 hours away. He has about twice the horsepower I do though. :( They had a STI there too, same year, but it was $6k more and way higher insurance. my insurance only went up $13/month for the WRX. :tup:
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He was the very guy I was thinking of.
Now to make the race fair I vote you stick a brick under his gas pedal, that should do it.
Only 13$/month? What did you drive before? Or did you promise them it would only be driven by a little old lady to church on Sundays.
 
Congratulations on your new baby Brandon...:cheers:

Which Evo and Impreza model is it that you can RM?
 
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