Out of the Water and into the Fire: Toyota

[LeadSlead#2]

I'm glad we're not getting utter crap such as a Grand Am, a Sunfire or a Taurus from Detroit / Dearborn anymore. But I still wouldn't consider a G6 at the same level as a Mazda6 or an Accord yet, or a Cobalt at the same level of a Mazda3 or a Civic. In many cases they're still just getting there.

Ouch! way to bash Pontiac's best selling car
I don't know where you live, or what you see, but I see 30 new Cobalts a day I've seen about 5 new civics and maybe 5 mazda's a day.
Either way, I've also seen that the new Cobalt interior's are probably the best-looking I've seen, at least on anything less than 30K
Exterior? I like 'em all, but love none.
Performance? we know exactly how that line goes, Cobalt, Civic, Ma,,... wait.... M...no, Maz......Mazda

 

[GT4_Rule]

Of course, you're biased too. Read the custom user title

 

[Carl.]

Ouch! way to bash Pontiac's best selling car
I don't know where you live, or what you see, but I see 30 new Cobalts a day I've seen about 5 new civics and maybe 5 mazda's a day.
Either way, I've also seen that the new Cobalt interior's are probably the best-looking I've seen, at least on anything less than 30K
Exterior? I like 'em all, but love none.
Performance? we know exactly how that line goes, Cobalt, Civic, Ma,,... wait.... M...no, Maz......Mazda

I'm bashing the Cobalt? By the way, a Pontiac Cobalt?? Unless you were speaking about the Grand Am, which is THE WORST car I've ever driven, along with a 1990 Corolla and a 2000 Sunfire - I rank these even lower than the 1988 Ford Tempo or the 1997 Ford Escort I had the (dis)pleasure to drive. My girlfriend's 2002 Hyundai Accent GSi is a joy to drive besides these, even its interior is less depressing. GM had to give them away to sell them, and I wonder what percentage of these sales were rental / fleet cars.

Don't get me wrong here, I think the Cobalt is a decent car, It's certainly lightyears ahead of a Cavalier / Sunfire, but I'm sorry, in terms of interior, the Mazda3 is still the reference in that price range, in terms of design, materials and fit /finish. I've not driven a Cobalt yet, but I've yet to see any reviewer placing it ahead of a Mazda3 or a Civic in terms of handling, too. Having driven a 3, the bar is indeed set very high. I agree that It could use a bit more power, but it's nowhere as bad as you make it sound. The Cobalt engine looks good for the money, though.

In the end I'd probably buy a Mazda3 over a 4 door Cobalt, or a Civic Si over a Cobalt SS, though in each case I would give the Cobalt a try.

And where I live (Montreal), Mazda3s and Civics are bestsellers, you see them everywhere. I don't have numbers for last year but the order in Canada's compact car sales in 2004 was:

1. Civic
2. Corolla
3. Mazda3
4 Cavalier
5 Echo
6 Sunfire
7 Focus

 

[a6m5]

Sure, it's going to cost Toyota a bit of money, but it's more of a preventative safety repair; you naysayers act as if it's the second coming of the Ford Pinto.

IMO, a lot of people already sees the Toyota as the new leader. When you are on top, people will criticize you, taking shots at you. I'd like to say, good job Toyota.... and get used to more love from the critics.

...Of course, as we are (or atleast some of us) are proud Americans who are looking to defend the dominance of the companies that we created.

While I see Carl's point(take it easy on Grand Ams though, I like those too. ), I don't see anything wrong with little bit of fanboyism here. When it comes to cars, a lot of people are this way, especially the "car guys".

P.S. While I'm thinking Cobalt is getting bit overrated in this thread(), I do get the feeling that they are great cars. I'm definitely looking forward to a ride in one. Last Cavalier I drove was the early 90's one......... That, along with whatever also 90's Oldsmobile I drove were the worst (new)cars I've ever driven.

Edit:

2. Corolla

In '06, I get the feeling Corolla will finish strong again with its' 41 mpg on freeway. 👍

 

[Carl.]

take it easy on Grand Ams though

NO!!

I had to deal with recurrent nightmares of Dolly Parton's boob after having to look at that instrument cluster for a few hours.

 

[GT4_Rule]

It is a bit cluttered and awkward - but I don't see any source for nightmares

 

[Carl.]

The picture doesn't do it justice...

 

[a6m5]

Oh, oh, I drove that one. A rental, when I visited California few years back. It was the first Grand Am I drove, and while it was barely an average of a midsize sedan, it was great. When I first came to U.S. in '87, I just fell in love with them. They just look so damn good with those handsome looking frontend. 👍 I used to dream about owning a Grand Am coupe when I was like thirteen.

Edit:
P.S. I'm still upset at Pontiac for dropping the "Grand Am" name. I hope G6 flops like crazy.

 

[Carl.]

I used to like Grand Ams as a kid, too . Heck, I even liked the spaceship looks of the first gen Pontiac Transport / Chevy Lumina at the time. The 2003-ish rental Grand-Am I drove was a nightmare in about every aspect, though.

[/off-topic slide]

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I'm bashing the Cobalt? By the way, a Pontiac Cobalt?? Unless you were speaking about the Grand Am, which is THE WORST car I've ever driven, along with a 1990 Corolla and a 2000 Sunfire - I rank these even lower than the 1988 Ford Tempo or the 1997 Ford Escort I had the (dis)pleasure to drive. My girlfriend's 2002 Hyundai Accent GSi is a joy to drive besides these, even its interior is less depressing. GM had to give them away to sell them, and I wonder what percentage of these sales were rental / fleet cars.

In the end I'd probably buy a Mazda3 over a 4 door Cobalt, or a Civic Si over a Cobalt SS, though in each case I would give the Cobalt a try.

And where I live (Montreal), Mazda3s and Civics are bestsellers, you see them everywhere. I don't have numbers for last year but the order in Canada's compact car sales in 2004 was:

1. Civic
2. Corolla
3. Mazda3
4 Cavalier
5 Echo
6 Sunfire
7 Focus

Why would you even think Pontiac Cobalt???.......??
Yes the Grand-Am, and they were Pontiac's best seller for many years...
Now, I've never been in a 99-up Grand-Am, but it does look like they uglied up the interior....the steering wheel is horrid-looking, BUT, I've seen far worse.

And if you honestly favor an 88 Tempo over that??? there IS something wrong with you. I rode in one too, and they suck, just like every other 80's interior.

Also, why are you bringing up '04 sales? Cobalt's werent even out yet....???

P.S. there was a time, a while back, when I said everyone who bashes American car interiors, brings up a rental....So, Thank You

 

[Carl.]

Why would you even think Pontiac Cobalt???.......??

I Misread your post, when you jumped from Pontiac to the Cobalt.

Yes the Grand-Am, and they were Pontiac's best seller for many years...
Now, I've never been in a 99-up Grand-Am, but it does look like they uglied up the interior....the steering wheel is horrid-looking, BUT, I've seen far worse.

And if you honestly favor an 88 Tempo over that??? there IS something wrong with you. I rode in one too, and they suck, just like every other 80's interior.

I haven't seen anything worse in terms of interior in a post-2000 car, even going back to the late 90s... except maybe earlier Hyundais. The Tempo interior sucked too, but it was nowhere as tacky, especially considering it was 15 years older, and at least the seats were tolerable. The Grand Am was also noisy as hell, there were cracking noises coming from everywhere, the plastics and the interior design were horrible and the steering gave absolutely no road feedback, there was no road feel at all. Oh, the transmission was the antithesis of smooth, too.

Also, why are you bringing up '04 sales? Cobalt's werent even out yet....???

As I said, I haven't found sales for 05, but you said you were seeing 30 cobalts for around 5 Civic and 5 Mazda. That's far from being the case here, I see far more Japanese compacts (both new and used) on the road than Cobalts.

P.S. there was a time, a while back, when I said everyone who bashes American car interiors, brings up a rental....So, Thank You

I drove several rentals / courtesy cars over the years. Some were recent, others were old beaters. They were Fords, Chevys, Pontiacs, Toyotas, Hondas, Volvos, even a Renault... and the Grand Am was the worse of the bunch in almost every aspect, especially the interior.

 

[Onikaze]

Hell, I used to think Intrepids and Grand Am's looked cool.

Then I discovered, to my horror, that people, for some reason, made front wheel drive cars.

Oh...that was a terrible day.

I will give Grand Am's this, they are pretty light, with peppy engines, if nothing else.

 

[YSSMAN]

A thing about the Mazda 3 vs Civic vs Corolla vs Cobalt/G5:

Looking only at prices of the cars when comparibly equipped and the ammount of money that you are going to have to pay to insure the car (in the United States), the Cobalt/G5 are the cheapest of the bunch.

And I wouldn't put the Mazda high on my list, as the only one worth getting (the 2.3 S) is price much higher than the Cobalt LT or SS (sans-supercharger).

EDIT: If we were talking the Protoge5 (still a FAR better car than the 3 2.3 S), then I would probably go for the Mazda. It's not that the 3 is a bad car, but I think it is a tad bit overpriced for what you get.

 

[Carl.]

A thing about the Mazda 3 vs Civic vs Corolla vs Cobalt/G5:

Looking only at prices of the cars when comparibly equipped and the ammount of money that you are going to have to pay to insure the car (in the United States), the Cobalt/G5 are the cheapest of the bunch.

And I wouldn't put the Mazda high on my list, as the only one worth getting (the 2.3 S) is price much higher than the Cobalt LT or SS (sans-supercharger).

EDIT: If we were talking the Protoge5 (still a FAR better car than the 3 2.3 S), then I would probably go for the Mazda. It's not that the 3 is a bad car, but I think it is a tad bit overpriced for what you get.

From GM and Mazda US websites:

Chevy Cobalt SS 1SS: $17 990

Mazda3 S Touring: $18 175

Both are similarily equipped, with a 11hp and 13lb/ft advantage for the Cobalt but it is also over 400lbs heavier than the 3. As I said, I have yet to drive a Cobalt, but it looks like it would take one heck of a rebate to convince me to take one over a Mazda3.

The protege5 was a great little car, although the steering wasn't as good as the 3 and the interior wasn't on the same level (I've driven both). It's chassis was very well balanced though, and I love its looks.

 

[YSSMAN]

I've driven both the 3 and the Cobalt, and I thought they were pretty close given their different trim levels. The 3i, I thought, was pretty comfortable and could be uncorked when it needed to be... The Cobalt LT Coupe I drove was pretty nice as well, and it gave more of an impression of the MKIV Jetta with the 2.0L 8V than a sporty small car. But they were both pretty nice, but if I recall, the Cobalt was indeed cheaper.

 

[GT4_Rule]

The Cobalt is fighting with price - although I'd recommend GM price it a little lower. They still have to work on the interior; even though it's quite nice, it still doesn't match up to Mazda 3. I'd like to own a Cobalt SS than a MazdaSpeed 3 though.

By the way, Grand Am is a nice car. Athletic and sporty. I liked that name.

 

[eiriksmil]

I would only think the build quality of Toyota can improve. Allright, the Avensis (Euro-model) feels tight and very well built. But after living with the Yaris Verso (Euro-model, built in France, known as FunCargo in Japan, estate version of Echo/Platz), I can say, this car was built by drunk people with weird hats. Yes, the car starts every time. Yes, we've never had a single problem with it. But yes, the car rattles. It rattles so bad, I just want to tear the plastic panels down with a hammer, take out the loose Champagne caps inside the hollow rooms in the cheap design, throw them out of the window, and isolate the whole car. Or, it's probably the reason why our sound system is on full.. Apart from the squeeks and the rattles, it's allright. It's built to a price, and you can tell. Shame my old 1991 Daihatsu feels better built.
The new Yaris is probably in a different league, but the new Aygo (European model) is quite possibly the Yaris Mk 1 all over again.
When renting a Corolla last summer, this was a cheap, cheap model, though, the plastic on the A-pillar fell off, some panels were loose, the car rattled more than the Yaris, well, it was terrible.
Allright, Toyota quality is improving, but so is the price.. Better price means child labour and worse quality on industry. A case always have to sides. Guess the rich people just have to live with the rattles, to spear the lives of those poor people making them, so they won't get even poorer.
In Europe, it seems like Ford are way better built than Toyotas. But that's because they're built by Germans.

 

[a6m5]

eiriksmil: Very interesting stuff. In the U.S., Ford quality is definitely not rated on par with Toyota. Probably not even close, but then again, many of our Fords comes from Mexico(I wish they came from Germany).

P.S. Daihatsu cars are not some piece of crap. They are pretty respected mini-car specialist......... and owned by Toyota.

 

[eiriksmil]

eiriksmil: Very interesting stuff. In the U.S., Ford quality is definitely not rated on par with Toyota. Probably not even close, but then again, many of our Fords comes from Mexico(I wish they came from Germany).

P.S. Daihatsu cars are not some piece of crap. They are pretty respected mini-car specialist......... and owned by Toyota.

Daihatsu and Toyota owns each other, in a joint venture. Very interesting, that small Toyota's got Daihatsu parts and vice versa.


Now, this is fun.

The 2006 Fusion, USDM car

The 2007 Camry, USDM car

The 2006 Ford Mondeo, EDM car

The 2005 Toyota Avensis, EDM car

And how the European Toyota cars look, a bit modded Avensis

BTW, I would much rather have a 2007 Camry than any of these..

 

[a6m5]

Daihatsu and Toyota owns each other, in a joint venture.

I don't know about that. Infact, I highly doubt it. Toyota has the controlling share in Daihatsu, but I've never heard of Daihatsu owning any share of Toyota, which means that if they do, it's very little. Daihatsu owning some Toyota stock does not make it a merger either. Personally, I see them as the subsidiary of Toyota. I'd love to find out how much stake Daihatsu has in Toyota though.

 

[eiriksmil]

I don't know about that. Infact, I highly doubt it. Toyota has the controlling share in Daihatsu, but I've never heard of Daihatsu owning any share of Toyota, which means that if they do, it's very little. Daihatsu owning some Toyota stock does not make it a merger either. Personally, I see them as the subsidiary of Toyota. I'd love to find out how much stake Daihatsu has in Toyota though.

Well, I think I mixed the facts. Anyway, in CAR Magazine December 2005issue, there was an article which showed who owns who. Toyota is a shareholder in Daihatsu, but Daihatsu is a shareholder in Perodua. Didn't say anything about joint venture between Dai and Toyota, though. But, I have read somewhere, or heard, that Toyota uses Daihatsu parts.. I'm pretty sure, I just can't remember the source.

 

[a6m5]

Well, I think I mixed the facts. Anyway, in CAR Magazine December 2005issue, there was an article which showed who owns who. Toyota is a shareholder in Daihatsu, but Daihatsu is a shareholder in Perodua. Didn't say anything about joint venture between Dai and Toyota, though. But, I have read somewhere, or heard, that Toyota uses Daihatsu parts.. I'm pretty sure, I just can't remember the source.

Ah, alright. I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota used Daihatsu parts on their smaller cars. From what I understand, reason Toyota wanted Daihatsu was for their kei-car/mini-car knowhow(=technology?).

 

[eiriksmil]

Ah, alright. I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota used Daihatsu parts on their smaller cars. From what I understand, reason Toyota wanted Daihatsu was for their kei-car/mini-car knowhow(=technology?).

Well, for example, Daihatsu has also earned a lot on this, since they've got money for running and developing Perodua cars, which is basically Daihatsu cars with an enourmous reputation in Malaysia and other South-Asian countries. Therefore, I think it's partly right to call it a "partnership", not just a takeover, since Daihatsu is more powerful now than before.
And yes, without Daihatsu, Toyota had still been stuck with bad K-cars. I would actually go as far, as to say without Toyota-Daihatsu, there would never be a 2007 Yaris or an Aygo, at least not so good. So, you could probably call it a partnership, both have earned a lot on it.
Let's not highjack this thread a lot more, so I'll just end with this; without Daihatsu, Toyota would have even worse build quality.

Cheers, mate

 

[Jay]

Ah, alright. I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota used Daihatsu parts on their smaller cars. From what I understand, reason Toyota wanted Daihatsu was for their kei-car/mini-car knowhow(=technology?).

Awhile ago I pulled a Toyota 3B diesel engine from a 80's Toyota Dyna truck (BU32) and the 3B engine had a lot of Daihatsu logo's casted on it.

So yeah it seems atleast Toyota borrows parts.

 

[daggoth]

Allright, Toyota quality is improving, but so is the price..

You're crazy. First and foremost Toyota quality has been DE-creasing over the years. The latter 80's and 90's Toyotas are very well built. From a European point of view I would say it's because many of the cars no longer come from Japan but are built in Europe.

"Better price means child labour"

Where did that come from?

In Europe, it seems like Ford are way better built than Toyotas. But that's because they're built by Germans.

It may seem that way but none of the market polls indicate that, Toyota, Lexus and all the other Japanese brands are at the top of reliability surveys.
Don't make a black sheep the representation of the entire brand, you might have had bad luck with your Yaris and the Yaris Verso was made to be a cheap tiny car that can carry around a lot of cargo, it wasn't exactly thought to be a super confortable noise-free passenger car.

I have read somewhere, or heard, that Toyota uses Daihatsu parts.. I'm pretty sure, I just can't remember the source.

This is true, the two companies share technologies, the first VVT-i prototypes were developed by Daihatsu and the small 1.0l engine used in the European Yaris was originaly made for a Daihatsu car.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

The Grand Am was also noisy as hell, there were cracking noises coming from everywhere, the plastics and the interior design were horrible and the steering gave absolutely no road feedback, there was no road feel at all. Oh, the transmission was the antithesis of smooth, too.

And you think this car was a reputable example of all Grand-Ams? sounds like a clearly beaten rental, no matter the make, model, or year.

 

[YSSMAN]

...The Grand Am was the best selling Pontiac for quite some time, and at one point made up nearly 40% of their sales each year. But the problem with the Grand Am was that it for the most part, always used out of date technology from the frame to the radio, but they knew the cars would sell because they were cheap and reliable. That said, the last of the "compariably good" Grand Ams came and went with the mid '90s redesign of the Camry and Accord, as the Grand Am went on as a volume-seller, and did very little to improve uppon itself.

But times have changed at GM, and the Grand Am replacement (otherwise known as the G6) has done a good job at bringing honor back to the Pontiac entry mid-size. It uses the same bits and pieces that lie beneath cars like the Opel/Vauxhall Vectra and Saab 9-3, and offers a pretty smooth and isolated ride with great fuel economy, all together for a great price. The different versions of the car go above and beyond what the old Grand Am used to offer, with coupes, sedans, and convertables available all with high-performance options as well.

Sure, the cars are no Toyota Camry or Honda Accord, but Pontiac certainly has been selling enough of the cars to call them a mainstream success. Refinement levels of the cars are for the most part on par with the competition, and given the cheaper prices to buy and insure, it would be one of the first sedans I would consider buying outside of the Saturn Aura and Ford Fusion.

 

[YSSMAN]

...I dunno if anyone has been keeping track of the current fued between General Motors and The New York Times over some language in recent reviews, editorials, etc. It has actually been rather funny.

 

[eiriksmil]

You're crazy. First and foremost Toyota quality has been DE-creasing over the years. The latter 80's and 90's Toyotas are very well built. From a European point of view I would say it's because many of the cars no longer come from Japan but are built in Europe.

Personally, the Avensis feels more German than a Carina E. Soft touch plastics, nice details, etc.

Where did that come from?

Or, what I meant, lower price equals less money for the workers. Who will loose on lower price? The workers.

It may seem that way but none of the market polls indicate that, Toyota, Lexus and all the other Japanese brands are at the top of reliability surveys.
Don't make a black sheep the representation of the entire brand, you might have had bad luck with your Yaris and the Yaris Verso was made to be a cheap tiny car that can carry around a lot of cargo, it wasn't exactly thought to be a super confortable noise-free passenger car.

The Ford Focus lead the ADAC survey for quite some time, and the Ford Focus/Mondeo is a lot nicer built than a Toyota Corolla/Avensis.
You are ruining your own opinions, in one hand Toyota quality is de-creasing, on the other hand, I have had bad luck with the Yaris? Er, no, if I should believe what you first said, there's a reason for the Yaris being bad quality, quality has gone down.

 

[Carl.]

The Ford Focus lead the ADAC survey for quite some time, and the Ford Focus/Mondeo is a lot nicer built than a Toyota Corolla/Avensis.
You are ruining your own opinions, in one hand Toyota quality is de-creasing, on the other hand, I have had bad luck with the Yaris? Er, no, if I should believe what you first said, there's a reason for the Yaris being bad quality, quality has gone down.

In North America, we don't get the same Focus or the Mondeo as you do in Europe, and we neither get the same Corolla or the Avensis.

And when the Yaris Hactchback came out (a few years after you, in Canada, then USA), the only vehicules in the same size and category over here were ...the Hyundai Accent and the Chevy Aveo / Suzuki "Swift", which were both a dated, rebadged Daewoo. No Renault, Peugeot, Fiat, Seat, Fiesta, Lupo, Micra, (Proper) Swift, etc...

And you think this car was a reputable example of all Grand-Ams? sounds like a clearly beaten rental, no matter the make, model, or year.

As I said, I'm also comparing it to other high mileage cars (rentals, courtesy or others) I've driven. A few of them were POS or beaters, but none of them left me with such a bad impression. Can you honestly say that a 2003 Grand Am was anywhere near the competition in terms of quality, materials, chassis and refinement? It was long due for a new model, as were the Sunfire / Cavalier.