Overtaking in F1

[Dotini]

"On 23 November we'll discuss the overtaking problem in the commission," Todt revealed. "It's the cars' and tracks' fault.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88389

In this article the FIA President has criticized the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix due to its terribly limited overtaking possibilities.

For years now this topic has received the concerted attention of the organizers and constructors, yet nothing particularly satisfactory seems to have emerged. They have tweaked tires, wings, diffusers and whatnot, but where's the real problem?


In my opinion as an active racer and longtime student of motorsport, there are three basic areas where huge improvements in overtaking possibilities could be had by changing the specs of the cars.

1) Brakes. The physical time and distance during which braking takes place is so small that humans almost cannot utilize most braking zones for overtaking in today's F1 cars. To reintroduce steel brakes would improve this greatly.

2) Robustness of the chassis. Contact between wing elements and tires or tires and tires is almost always results in a pitstop or retirement. The configuration of the chassis should be such that some rubbing and minor contact can safely and routinely occur as the cars jostle for position in the corners.

3) Physical size. In motorcycle racing and karting it is common for two or more competitors to run side by side through the corners. More of this could happen in F1 if the cars were at least 50cm narrower than they are now.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[Ardius]

First you must ask the question, how little overtaking is there really? And secondly, what is currently stopping drivers overtaking as opposed to other series?
The biggest factor currently appears to be aerodynamics, the cars producing a wake effect that takes away downforce for the following car and therefore speed in the corners. This means they can never keep close to make attacks without there being significant straights at the circuit.
So I simply say, fix the aerodynamic wake issues, as they hopefully will be doing next year (banning of double deck diffusers).

How much more overtaking should there be? Not that much more. Formula 1 has never been about oodles of overtaking moves. Its more quality than quantity, an overtake should be special and hard-worked for, not easy "push-to-pass".
Overtaking certainly needs to be a bit easier, but it doesn't need a huge improvement, not to the extent of introducing artifical rules to force overtaking to happen.

Making the cars narrower isn't going to help...if anything the cars should be wider, so they can carry more speed in the corners and they aren't so reliant on aerodynamics for their grip (more mechanical grip).
Increasing braking distances would be the biggest help.

People always refer to the cars being too weak. Well, hello? They fall apart for a reason! You cannot have cars that are safe for impacts at 200mph but also can bash each other with no consequence. Also, I remember several incidents this year alone with cars "rubbing" with little/no damage caused. Alguesuari on Kobayashi being the most obvious. This isn't Touring Cars, reference Villenueve/Arnoux as much as you like, but you can't expect open wheelers to go wheel to wheel and always come out fine.

Personally I think the overtaking "problem" is a massively overblown issue, yes, it needs improving a fair bit. But its not the big issue some are making out.

 

[Beliall]

Kamui "banzai" Kobyashi doesnt seem to have much trouble. Overtaking is possible, if the drivers want it bad enough.

 

[GTPorsche]

1. I don't see an issue with reverting to a different brake compound. This might actually be the answer they are looking for. Making the braking zones longer can potentially introduce passing opportunities as the drivers outbrake each other into the turns.

2. F1 isn't a contact sport. Does he not realize what happens when open-wheel cars make contact?

3. The F1 cars are narrow enough as it is. The tracks are plenty wide enough for two cars to go side by side through the corners. Older F1 cars were wider and they had no issues going side by side.

 

[Dotini]

How much more overtaking should there be? Not that much more. Formula 1 has never been about oodles of overtaking moves.

I agree that F1 has never been about oodles of overtaking. That is the glorious past of Fangio and Moss, Stewart and Lauda, Senna and Prost. But now we are talking about the modern F1, which is commercialized to the nth degree, and must be seen to put on the best possible show for spectators and sponsors on TV.

First we must agree that more overtaking is necessary. If so, the cars must be made robust enough to handle it. And the technical means must be found to enable it.

 

[Ardius]

Kamui "banzai" Kobyashi doesnt seem to have much trouble. Overtaking is possible, if the drivers want it bad enough.

Ok, this is a different issue altogether. Kobayashi's overtakes are not "normal" overtakes, they are effectively dive bombs half the time. Now, he's very good (so far) at judging where to do it and he's extremely lucky that all of his opponents have seen him coming.
If everyone overtaked like Kobayashi did at Suzuka, we would have a heck of a lot more accidents. The problem is, if Barrichello or whoever had not seen him coming, who is at fault? It shouldn't be Barrichello because he can't be expected to see someone diving from far back and after a blind corner.

As good as Kobayashi's moves are to watch, they shouldn't be praised too much. You have to give the guy in front a fair chance to see the move coming and react.

Not to mention those overtakes are only a certain kind. You don't just overtake in braking zones and it shouldn't be the only kind.

Generally speaking, Kobayashi's moves are normally frowned upon in racing ettiquette terms, because you've pushed the line from being a balance of the defender and the attacker being fair to just simply the defender being lucky enough to see it coming. Its basically the same idea as the silly rules they are trying to bring in where you can only use the adjustable rear wing if you are X amount of yards behind the car in front and the defending car can't use it. I.e. once the attacking car is close enough, the overtake has happened already and the defending car can't do anything.

This brings me back to the whole point of this debate really - overtaking should be a quality skill. Kobayashi did show awesome braking and control skills, but I wouldn't call it a great "battle" because he gave the guy in front absolutely no chance at all to react. Would you rather see everyone diving every corner and giving the right to the racing line to the guy attacking?

This same issue plagues online racing games. People seem to think as long as you are on the inside, you win the overtake, regardless of speed and direction of the line and corner. Its not just about getting the advantage line, but also giving racing room and letting the other guy fairly defend his position.
And there is no good way of making a decent rule out of racing ettiquette too, other than the "1 move in the braking zone" gentleman's agreement. Where an overtake works and where it doesn't is very circumstantial. Its something you only learn through experience.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Steel brakes won't actually make any difference, for two reasons:

Firstly, steel brakes in and of themselves won't significantly increase braking distances
Secondly, the cars' and drivers' performance levels are too close. You put all the cars on steel brakes, you're left with the same problem because the drivers will all brake within millimetres of each other.

To introduce overtaking you have to have a difference between cars & drivers, and you have to not have the quickest cars at the front at the start.

Not easy problems to solve in F1.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Fernando Alonso is far more skilled F1 driver than Vitaly Petrov, in a superior car, with a world championship title on the line... and he can't over take...

I'm not sure what the problem is with F1, but if that situation can't be resolved F1 is gonna continue to be fairly boring.

 

[Shaggy Alonso]

They're due to be bringing back ground effect in 2013 which should definitely improve things. I understand that Indycar racing has had this for a long time and that the racing is a lot closer, even on the road courses. Can someone a little more au fait with Indycar racing elaborate on this?

 

[Matti_Dude]

From what I have read about the rule changes for 2011 they are going the wrong way about increasing overtaking in the sport. I don't want to see somebody use a boost button to just blast past somebody on the straight, or give themself an advantage by adjusting a wing that the driver in front doesn't have. Sure it will increase the amount of overtaking but they won't be anywhere near as interesting as a proper overtake where real race craft is needed to pull it off. Getting rid of the double diffuser does sound like a good idea to me, and brining back ground effects in 2013 should also help because the cars won't need to rely on their wings as much to generate the same level of downforce.

In terms of the tracks I think generally most of the layouts are set up nicely for overtaking, bar a few exceptions like Hungary and Singapore (but even in Singapore we saw a fair amount of passes being made, mainly thanks to Kubica). Sure some people aren't a fan of Tilke's tracks but they do tend to lend themself to generate overtaking oppurtunities. All in all at least now with the no refuelling rule it is forcing drivers to pass each other on the track rather than in the pits but if anything it has just highlighted how difficult it can sometimes be for two quite equal cars to pass each other in Formula one. I don't think we will see any massive improvements until the big rule change in 2013 which is quite a long time away.

 

[Boundary Layer]

I'm not convinced that skirts and aerodynamic undertrays are the full solution. They might help by reducing the impact of running into a wall of hot highly turbulent air behind another car... but ultimately there will always be some inefficiencies created over the surfaces of the trailing car. The leading car always has the advantage through the corner in terms of aero grip no matter what you try to do.

I think Pirelli's direction with the tires next year will help, albeit in a gimmicky kind of way. (purposely delivering marginal tires? ) ...but not as gimmicky as the adjustable rear wing idiocy.


My thoughts:

1. Before they even start to touch the technical regs, they need to revisit the sporting regs and stop handing out drive thru's every time an attempted passing maneuver goes wrong. Let the guys take a few more risks...
   I think this is paramount.
   
   
2. Get rid of parc ferme! Bring some actual strategy back into the sport so that guys naturally end up running at different paces throughout the race. Allow changes to setup and strategy Saturday night to allow cars to gain speed, or possibly even lose speed if they go the wrong way with it. Let them react to what they think the other teams might be doing. A decade ago this was one of the most intriguing aspects of the sport for me. I hate the ridiculous rules that were introduced over the years forcing the teams to tell their rivals exactly how much fuel or type of tire they're going to start on. Keep them guessing!
   
   
3. I say get rid of the rev limit. Let the guys turn the wick right up when they need to. ...maybe pair this with the removal of the engine endurance rules so teams/drivers can do this without having to worry about how they'll fare at Monza during the race in Bahrain (as an example).
   This works well with the next point...
   
   
4. Allow for refuelling but limit the amount of fuel available to each driver on race day, and make it a bit tight so there's no possible way of finishing without turning down the wick for awhile. Granted, the much more frequent use of the safety car now compared to 10+ years ago provides more opportunity for this to be done for free, but its the same for everyone.
   And don't make them declare the fuel load for their first stint on Saturday. Let them adjust strategy prior to the race.
   
   
5. Get rid of the mandatory stop for tires. I understand the decision to only bring two compounds to a race to ease the burden on the supplier... but why do the teams need to use both? Everyone ends up running almost the exact same strategy with this in play. Remove that, let the teams do some homework and make the call entirely on their own, based on what they think will get them to the finish line the fastest (that's how it should be, don't you think?). They should be the ones deciding whether they want to run the race at a slower lap time but without any stops, or faster lap time with a few stops, etc...
   And don't make them declare the tires for the first stint on Saturday.
   
   
6. I also think KERS will help if the FIA would open up development on it a little more. Some call it a gimmick, and to some extent I agree with this purely because of the restrictions on its usage, but it does have potential as a road-going green technology so I think it looks good on the sport to help develop it. If the FIA kept a limit on the amount of energy stored, got rid of the 6sec/lap rule but imposed a J/lap rule and allowed the teams/drivers tune on the fly how rapidly it is discharged I think it could be great.

 

[Small_Fryz]

Great post BL 👍

 

[FishforRent]

^^Excellent well thoughtout post BL. 👍

From my perspective, the key to having more overtaking occur on-track is making the cars need to pit more than just the single stop that they are required to make now. The car's performance needs to suffer during the race so that the teams have to pit to recover their pace. And that would have to occur at least twice during the 1 1/2+ hour races. Whether its the tyres fading or the race strategy being mismanaged, with the cars being so equal (with the top teams) and history dictating that the engineers will recover whatever speed is deluted through regulations, it seems to me that the cars will need to go through a phase of the race where each will have a disadvantage; where they will be racing under duress at mulitple times in each race. That way the engineers will have a play during the race, the driver may have to muscle through a stint with less performance than his peers, and the race will not be so determined by who has pole and can occupy the racing line. I'll leave the how to the experts.

 

[Peter]

This same issue plagues online racing games. People seem to think as long as you are on the inside, you win the overtake, regardless of speed and direction of the line and corner. Its not just about getting the advantage line, but also giving racing room and letting the other guy fairly defend his position.

This.


Countless times in GT5P, or whatever, going up the straight toward 130R at Suzy in GT5P, and i've got someone up my inside, they go for it ,and what happens? Collision. I always end up having to brake a lot more than I need to to prevent it.


Same in F1 2010 too. People don't hesitate to go for an overtake, giving the other guy no room or anything, and even if the pass will almost certainly cause an accident.

 

[Shaggy Alonso]

Having the high ground is paramount though in making an overtake. For example, if i'm on the outside and someone is coming through on the inside and is level with me, it's no longer my corner to defend - so I can't just turn in on the car coming through on the inside, I need to give them space, ala Button on Hamilton into turn one at Istanbul. This looks like a great overtake on the part of Hamilton, but in reality the overtake was already done as soon as he had the high ground, all he had to do from there was get the right braking point and Button was obliged to yield, lest the pair of them initiate what could have been a nuclear fallout afterwards had that resulted in a crash.

 

[Kilika]

Bringing back the tire war would make it interesting. I know "control" tires is all about cost cutting but it just took out another variable that differentiates the cars. Now the majority of the cars start on the option tires then finish the race on the prime tires while all carrying the same fuel loads.

I missed the days when one tire manufacturer had great intermediates while the other one had great "warm weather" tires, etc. With the unpredictability of weather and changing track temperatures, it really changed the dynamics of a race.

Also, mechanical grip > aerodynamic grip will lead to more overtaking.

Yes all of this was gone in order to save money but F1 is too much like a spec series now. I say bring in budget caps but let the cars be more differentiated.

 

[Pupik]

The Abu Dahbi / Yas Marina Circuit has only one good overtaking place; the track moves around too much for overtaking, and there isn't any overtaking in places where the cars slow from 140mph to 80mph, unless someone makes an error. The track's width is about "medium", compared to other F1 circuits.

Tracks need unfettered straightaways and sweeping flat-out curves to promote overtaking, coupled with braking zones for tighter turns. Due to safety concerns with spectators, the need for huge billboards, you can't have it all: If we go back to a time with longer straights and faster, wider curves, we wind up with a situation where the fastest/faster cars will generally dominate, gaps between cars will increase, and F1 becomes a high-speed parade once more. Making the latest tracks wider has helped, in my opinion, which makes for overtaking opportunities, but if the track is wider, you still stand the chance for longer apex maneuvers, and more cutting-off of other drivers. Taking away some of the sandtraps also gives the drivers a little more confidence, although I think some drivers would/should retire from a said race had they not been there in the first place. More cars running equals more racing, and more interest.

Overtaking is actually decent at most races, compared to 10-15 years ago. Sometimes the field gaps itself to a point where overtaking can't happen, other times you get close racing...there really is no magic trick for this, although making it a spec series can influence close racing, F1 isn't really about that.

Formula 1 has never been about oodles of overtaking moves. Its more quality than quantity, an overtake should be special and hard-worked for, not easy "push-to-pass".

Yeah, that too.

 

[Barra333]

In my opinion, to make for more interesting racing - strategy, overtaking etc - just make the tyre compounds much softer, so that a driver can't drive 80% of the race on one set.

If, for example, Pirelli took two compounds to a race, make the harder of the two equivalent to the softer one that Bridgestone used this year. This would force teams to think about how to plan the race, especially if the softer compound allowed the driver to make up large amounts of time.

The other advantage to this would be that it would increase mechanical grip, diluting the effect of the 'dirty air' zone, and give drivers more of a fighting chance to overatake.

 

[Rossticles]

Q: What is your secret for overtaking?
Kamui Kobayashi: Because I am Japanese I have small eyes - so I can’t see the others guys.
Q: …and seriously?
KK: If I feel I can overtake I just do it. That’s all, no secret.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think the bigger problem is with the cars themselves. They're too aero-dependent. The problem is that the teams won't give up on aerodynamic grip because they kow it can make the car go faster.

 

[Barra333]

I think the bigger problem is with the cars themselves. They're too aero-dependent. The problem is that the teams won't give up on aerodynamic grip because they kow it can make the car go faster.

Exactly, thats why I think increasing mechanical grip through the tyres will help.
With the increased benifit of the teams really having to think about strategy. Remember that race at Montreal a couple of years ago when the tyres were not lasting long enough to get cars to the end on only one stop?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

When you think about it, wings are pretty redundant. It wouldn't be too difficult for teams to develop cars that produced aerodynamic grip via ground effects without any need for wings, and without the by-product that is the wake generated behind them, which is what makes it so difficult to pass (you'd also think someone might try to make a design that works best when in turbulent air). But it's also pretty risky, and the teams are content with what they have because they are sure of it.

Remember that race at Montreal a couple of years ago when the tyres were not lasting long enough to get cars to the end on only one stop?

That was this year.

 

[Barra333]

That was this year.

OK. Sorry, my long term memory for details like that is not great. I do remember it was a great race though.

 

[Dotini]

When you think about it, wings are pretty redundant. It wouldn't be too difficult for teams to develop cars that produced aerodynamic grip via ground effects without any need for wings, and without the by-product that is the wake generated behind them, which is what makes it so difficult to pass (you'd also think someone might try to make a design that works best when in turbulent air). But it's also pretty risky, and the teams are content with what they have because they are sure of it.

I think this is a great insight and a good idea! It's also maybe harder to put advertising on ground effects than it is on wings.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's also maybe harder to put advertising on ground effects than it is on wings.

Maybe?

More like definitely. Ground effects are on the floor of the car. But advertising had little to do with it - there's plenty of space on the nose, sidepods and ending cowling. The problem is that the teams will resist change because they know that they can get more and more downforce with wings than with mechanical grip. Of course, they can get even more with ground effects, but they're unwilling to do it because it's too risky. There's a greater chance that they can screw it up and slow themselves down.

 

[Peter]

Fans could work. Although they might shoot some debris out the back, which could pose problems to drivers behind them. And then there's rain.


Wouldn't more mechanical grip make the cars a lot easier to drive?

 

[Dotini]

Maybe?

When I say maybe I'm thinking of cars like the 1982 Williams-Ford as sponsored by Saudia. It has huge full-length venturi-tunnel sidepods (with skirts) with real acreage for the sponsors, it's wings almost vestigial. I watched Keke take 2nd with this at Long Beach.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Fans could work. Although they might shoot some debris out the back, which could pose problems to drivers behind them. And then there's rain.

It worked just fine for the Brabham Fan Car.

Wouldn't more mechanical grip make the cars a lot easier to drive?

No. Mechanical grip is limited to the points were the car is in direct contact with the road - namely, the tyres. Aerodynamic grip is limited to the points where the airflow over the car pushes it down - namely, the entire car. Mechanical grip would be significantly less than aerodynamic.

 

[Peter]

It worked just fine for the Brabham Fan Car.

I remember hearing somewhere, I don't remember if it was about the BT46, or the Chapparal 2J, but drivers said that they didn't like to be behind them, because they would throw up debris. Safety issues of the fans was probably not really taken into account, because of the short racing lives of both cars, and because safety wasn't as much of a big deal back then.

 

[Ardius]

Yes, Peter is correct, it was the Brabhram fan car which used to spit out stones at its competitors.
The other safety issue with fan cars and other extreme ground effect cars is that they allow the cars to go pretty rediculous speeds in corners...to the point where a failure on the car isn't going to end well. The fan also requires a flat surface to really work effectively, bumpy tracks or tracks where the drivers ride the kerbs are not its strength.

Limited ground effect regulations are an option but the reason they were banned in the first place was because the cars were becoming too quick. Its funny that you've come around to David Richards' thoughts too Ludes, because yes, wings and aerodynamics are pretty irrelevant. Unfortunately, the teams will fight a major a change like ridding of wings etc because they happen to employ aerodynamics engineers.