Overtaking lapped cars ISSUE. Ghosts or No Ghosts?

[adstomko]

I decided to create a thread for this because, given that the official FIA Championship for GT Sport is just around the corner, such a problem probably needs to be immediately addressed.

So, in the FIA Nations Cup this evening at Suzuka (predominantly an S/S lobby), I was on my last lap, catching the leader. He dropped 3 seconds at one corner, making me believe he may have a pending penalty for corner cutting, or at least be low on fuel. So I start pushing myself for 1st, with 3rd close behind.

Coming into the final chicane, a lapped car appears, originally as a ghost, then suddenly allegedly 'un-ghosts' whilst I am in the braking zone. So, I am thinking to myself 'Is the driver actually still a ghost?'

So, just out of the final corner, the lapped car wheel spins, leaving me with nowhere to go other than tap his bumper. As a result of this, I get given a 5 second penalty 0.5 seconds before I cross the finish line. So I had no time whatsoever to slow down to reduce penalty. Therefore, I dropped to 3rd in the race. If it wasn't for this, I would be in 2nd place in the UK for the Nations Cup.

My points are the following:
- Why have a ghost/no ghost system without simply using blue flags for the lapped car? It confuses everybody. You either have ghosting cars or no ghost with blue flags.
- Why would a car ghost then suddenly reappear as soon as I approach the car? It's seriously off-putting for the faster driver. I had no idea if the car was still a ghost or not until exit of corner. I didn't acknowledge first 'tap.'
- The driver I overtook had his/her stats reset to from B DR to S DR. If the driver is a lap down and causing such issues, don't you think the concept of resetting DRs because they've hammered one event all day and received multiple wins is not realistic? The driver was quite clearly not fast enough to keep up with rest of the field.

I thought I didn't tap driver at first. I thought it would eventually ghost, so I hit driver accidentally, albeit the driver was driving pretty slow.

This could be a massive issue for the official FIA events taking place this month. What's the point in a car ghosting then 'un-ghosting?'... particularly in the middle of a chicane.

I apologise if this sounds like a rant, but if you were in my shoes, you would probably feel the same way.

I think it would be fair if the penalty was somehow removed and I therefore finish the race in 2nd. But anyway, we shall discuss.

Thanks for your time to read this.

 

[Downhill Dino]

Why didn't you give him space? You tapped him twice.

 

[VeeDoubleU]

Why didn't you give him space? You tapped him twice.

Because the system should ghost lapped cars, hence the OP thought it would, however the system for some reason didn't.

 

[Downhill Dino]

That was originally the case as of 1.13

- Cars over a lap behind will now be ghosted and will not be subject to collisions. (Only enabled in Sport mode)

And in 1.15 was changed to

- Cars over a lap behind will now be ghosted depending on the distance from the player's car.

I don't know what that distance or how it's determined but it's no longer permanent ghosting.

 

[adstomko]

Why didn't you give him space? You tapped him twice.

My point exactly @VeeDoubleU .
Also, it's a bit difficult to avoid the lapped car's braking point when you are already in the middle of your braking point.
I was catching leader, who started making mistakes on the last lap, so I wanted to race to the limit, with 3rd place also not that far behind.
If the driver wheel spins out of a corner, it's almost impossible to avoid them and slow down.
Bottom line is: Why ghost then suddenly 'un-ghost?'

I don't know what that distance or how it's determined but it's no longer permanent ghosting.

There should be blue flags then...

 

[VeeDoubleU]

I don't know what that distance or how it's determined but it's no longer permanent ghosting.

Well unless the distance is negative, the car ahead should have been ghosted at some point.

 

[StirlingMoose]

Same thing in race C at Tsukuba. They'd be ghosted as you approached, then materialize as you got closer. It's like it's backwards. What's the point in ghosting a car if you're nowhere near it?

 

[Downhill Dino]

My point exactly @VeeDoubleU .
Also, it's a bit difficult to avoid the lapped car's braking point when you are already in the middle of your braking point.
I was catching leader, who started making mistakes on the last lap, so I wanted to race to the limit, with 3rd place also not that far behind.
If the driver wheel spins out of a corner, it's almost impossible to avoid them and slow down.

I'm going to nitpick, both times you hit him you were accelerating. You were in full control in not coming into contact.

Bottom line is: Why ghost then suddenly 'un-ghost?' without blue flags?

I would imagine it was because you two had matched speeds where as he was going much slower than 1st place.

There should be blue flags then...

More flags the better!

 

[adstomko]

I'm going to nitpick, both times you hit him you were accelerating. You were in full control in not coming into contact.

I think full control is a bit far-fetched. I accelerated because I was about to exit a corner/take the normal line. And the second tap, well, I'm in the middle of a straight. What am I supposed to do?

 

[Downhill Dino]

I think full control is a bit far-fetched. I accelerated because I was about to exit a corner/take the normal line.

Slow down?

And the second tap, well, I'm in the middle of a straight. What am I supposed to do?

Slow down?


Better safe than sorry, aggressive tailing for a backmarker. I would've coasted for second place.

 

[coryclifford]

If only ghosted cars existed in real life, think how many accidents in real life wouldn't happen...

 

[adstomko]

Slow down?
Better safe than sorry, aggressive tailing for a backmarker. I would've coasted for second place.

But I presumed the car was a ghost/about to ghost. Why become a ghost and suddenly un-ghost?
If lapped driver in front doesn't move out of way, why should I be penalised?
Plus, 1st place could've had a penalty after the errors the driver made. So why would I slow down with the opportunity to win fairly?

 

[Downhill Dino]

I would like to note I'm not advocating for how the system works (I don't really like it myself), but giving reason why it may have happened.

But I presumed the car was a ghost/about to ghost. Why become a ghost and suddenly change?

He was out of ghost for a good second or two before you got to him, I'm not sure why you would think he might go back into it. I said earlier he probably unghosted because speeds were matched with every surrounding opponent. Might be what the game is doing as that's what it looks like, so I'm not sure what their distance parameter that was mentioned in the notes is all about. I need more examples.

If lapped driver in front doesn't move out of way, why should I be penalised?

A driver is still a driver regardless of position, you were penalized for hitting another driver.

 

[Nuschel01]

 

[adstomko]

I'm not sure why you would think he might go back into it.

Because it appeared pretty obvious that I was travelling at a higher speed than him. Once the first tap occurs, coming from a long distance, then surely the system should acknowledge that the driver behind is travelling faster than him. Consequently, it should ghost immediately?

I understand your points. I know you do not like the system either.
My conclusion is that this ghosting/non-ghosting nonsense should be scrapped. It just confuses approaching drivers.

 

[adstomko]

(Duplicate)

 

[Downhill Dino]

Because it appeared pretty obvious that I was travelling at a higher speed than him. Once the first tap occurs, coming from a long distance, then surely the system should acknowledge that the driver behind is travelling faster than him. Consequently, it should ghost immediately?

I understand your points. I know you do not like the system either.
My conclusion is that this ghosting/non-ghosting nonsense should be scrapped. It just confuses approaching drivers.

I don't know, not sure you guys had that differing of speeds. Ghost systems are so annoying I too would be happy without it. I think the only time it was fine was in GRID.

 

[adstomko]

I don't know, not sure you guys had that differing of speeds. Ghost systems are so annoying I too would be happy without it. I think the only time it was fine was in GRID.

Agreed. Cars seemed to only reappear after they reached a high speed on a straight if I'm not mistaken?

 

[Woodybobs]

To be fair, ghosting the back markers was only introduced to stop lapped drivers from intentionally taking out the leaders, not so they can be driven through in every part of the track. It looks like that car let the leader through but then had nowhere to go to let you through. He had to take the chicane. It's unlucky for you but it's part of racing. It's safer to treat ghosted cars as if they weren't.

 

[adstomko]

To be fair, ghosting the back markers was only introduced to stop lapped drivers from intentionally taking out the leaders, not so they can be driven through in every part of the track. It looks like that car let the leader through but then had nowhere to go to let you through. He had to take the chicane. It's unlucky for you but it's part of racing. It's safer to treat ghosted cars as if they weren't.

I don't think he deliberately let him through. He just spun (causing yellow flags) and got back on track. He definitely had somewhere to go out of the last corner. Could've just gone left or onto grass on right. He's not exactly battling for position.

 

[tofuhero]

That seems like there's probably a bug with the 1.15 lapped ghosts change. I've seen players ghosted when I come up on them (not recovering from an accident) and lap them as of 1.15.

I think if PD keeps the ghosting system, they need to provide some visual way for other players to know when they're about to go opaque. Maybe a Pac-Man kind of blink faster thing, or put a countdown number above the car. The way it is now provides no information and doesn't provide confidence to other drivers passing.

 

[Woodybobs]

I don't think he deliberately let him through.

You could be right there.

Could've just gone left or onto grass on righ

That's an unrealistic expectation.

 

[adstomko]

You could be right there.


That's an unrealistic expectation.

Somebody immediately moved to the grass in qualifying because they made a mistake in the chicane. It can be done

 

[Woodybobs]

Somebody immediately moved to the grass in qualifying because they made a mistake in the chicane. It can be done

That doesn't mean you should expect it. He did exactly what I would expect him to do in that situation. It was unfortunate that you caught him there but he's a car on the track. He should be treated as such. Sometimes one has to let go of the win.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Penalties should be disabled when lapping traffic. I give people one second to get out of my way then I am going to force the issue.

 

[adstomko]

That doesn't mean you should expect it. He did exactly what I would expect him to do in that situation. It was unfortunate that you caught him there but he's a car on the track. He should be treated as such. Sometimes one has to let go of the win.

I wasn't expecting it, but why should I be penalised for somebody clearly slowing down/impeding another driver? Like @ShiftingGears said, they shouldn't really give penalties to leaders in such situations.
In Formula 1, the backmarker would be penalised.

 

[Woodybobs]

they shouldn't really give penalties to leaders in such situations

So leaders should be allowed punt back markers off track? That's ridiculous. So ridiculous I wasn't sure if he was joking or not.

In Formula 1, the backmarker would be penalised

They'd likely be given time to navigate the chicane. It happens regularly.

 

[adstomko]

So leaders should be allowed punt back markers off track? That's ridiculous. So ridiculous I wasn't sure if he was joking or not.

They'd likely be given time to navigate the chicane. It happens regularly.

I didn't say that punting should be allowed for leaders. But it's not as ridiculous as receiving a 5 second penalty for an unghosted car under braking and making a mistake right infront of you.
To be honest, if a backmarker on a video game was holding me up at the front without awareness and with carelessness, I don't blame the leaders for pushing them wide (not punting them off circuit). It's selfishness on their behalf in the first place.

F1: But if they cost the driver time in a situation where driver may have won, the backmarker would be penalised.

 

[Woodybobs]

I didn't say that punting should be allowed for leaders. But it's not as ridiculous as receiving a 5 second penalty for an unghosted car under braking and making a mistake right infront of you.
To be honest, if a backmarker on a video game was holding me up at the front without awareness and with carelessness, I don't blame the leaders for pushing them wide (not punting them off circuit). It's selfishness on their behalf in the first place.

F1: But if they cost the driver time in a situation where driver may have won, the backmarker would be penalised.

The penalty is for bumping him. It doesn't/shouldn't matter what position he's in. As for his mistake, you have to take some responsibility for that as his line was compromised by the first bump. Five seconds is harsh for that in any situation but it'd be the same if you we're fighting for position with him (if the algorithm is consistent). You should treat him like any other car on track. The video shows no sign of intentional blocking by him (that's not to say he wasn't but there's not enough evidence to support it). As such he probably wouldn't be penalised in F1. He hasn't really got anywhere to go. He could go right but he is not obligated to, and he risks getting a penalty himself for leaving the track. Going left could create problems if you decide to go on the outside.

 

[adstomko]

The penalty is for bumping him. It doesn't/shouldn't matter what position he's in. As for his mistake, you have to take some responsibility for that as his line was compromised by the first bump. Five seconds is harsh for that in any situation but it'd be the same if you we're fighting for position with him (if the algorithm is consistent). You should treat him like any other car on track. The video shows no sign of intentional blocking by him (that's not to say he wasn't but there's not enough evidence to support it). As such he probably wouldn't be penalised in F1. He hasn't really got anywhere to go. He could go right but he is not obligated to, and he risks getting a penalty himself for leaving the track. Going left could create problems if you decide to go on the outside.

After rejoining the circuit and noticing the leader fly past, it would make sense for the leader to cut the chicane to avoid any infringement. I probably would've done that regardless of the system giving me a penalty for corner cutting. When an F1 driver is completely on his own and not fighting for position, he would just move out of the way. Also, on the video, he does kind of block me because he veers left onto my racing line as he approaches the chicane.
And heck, he can't make any gains in the race because the leader has just lapped him, meaning he only has one corner left and his race his done!

I didn't treat him any differently. Given that this was an FIA race, you wouldn't expect to encounter such instances and slow drivers.
I mean, 13 laps at Suzuka and you encounter a backmarker? All in all, I blame the (un)ghosting system. It's quite clearly an issue.