Paris: New Elise, Elan, Elite, Eterne and Esprit

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So why call it an Elise at all?

Because they're running out of names beginning with "E"?

Edit: In all seriousness, because it's still their lightweight, mid-engined sports car. Makes more sense than coming up with an entirely new moniker.
 
^ Exige beat me to it. And here in the UK you can pick up an Elise from about £5k. Of course an NA MX5 that's as much as 21 years old is going to be cheaper than a brand new Elise and if you spend $50k modifying pretty much anything it'd beat an Elise...
Thank you. Might as well be comparing buying a $20,000 C5 Z06 & how you can build it to run next to Ford GTs all day with the money you save.

And tbh, when you pay $50,000 for an Elise, you're still technically buying into the image (like Ferrari). We had guys stop looking at a GT-R at CCM7 to ask my buddy about how his Elise has been for him. It's highly unlikely any Miata will get that same amount of attention & unless you've just dumped large sums of cash into it to make it stand out.

I mean if you want to talk about dumping $45K into an old Miata & how it'll beat an Elise, let's dump that same amount into the Elise. I don't think any Miata will ever touch it. I've seen what happens to an Exige just by putting $20K into it (C/F body work, S/C, track tires, etc.) & I don't think I've ever seen just about any car lap MSR as fast as that Exige did. I can imagine an equal amount of money would turn the Elise into a similar beast.
 
You can't really be comparing buying a brand new Elise to a modifying a 20 year old Mazda.

Here's a 5 year old Elise down the street from you asking 24,900.
Let me reiterate my point here. I didn't have the money to buy it, but recently I attempted to jump through some car loan hoops to buy a 1999 Miata. It had 10,000 original miles, as opposed to that Elise's 35,000. It cost $10,000, as opposed to that Elise's $24,000. That's a savings of 25,000 miles and $14,000. That's quite a lot of money left over to modify your technically newer 1999 Miata. And since it is a Miata it actually has more creature comforts than the Elise, so is all around the better car.

Now if you want to tell me that 1999 Miata is too heavy, then alright. That brings us back to the $3,000 I can buy a comparable NA for. Some models came without power steering, like Elises. Those base models weigh just over 2000 pounds, within spitting distance of the Elise. Buying one of those would leave a whopper stack of cash on your kitchen table with which you could actually have fun modifying your easily modifiable car, be proud of the work you've done, be respected my fellow purists, mechanics, and petrol heads, and of course rape that Elise around a track. Or in a straight line. Or pretty much anywhere.

Don't even talk about being a motoring purist if you're going to spend that kind of money on some flashy, useless sports car when you could spend a fraction of the money on the sports car and do some man work without having to drop the subframe to change the air filter. In your garage, with some buddies, a case of beer, and football on the TV.
 
This might as well be one of those stupid arguments about how you can build a Corvette & just beat on Ferraris all day because of the money you saved.
 
Don't even talk about being a motoring purist if you're going to spend that kind of money on some flashy, useless sports car when you could spend a fraction of the money on the sports car and do some man work without having to drop the subframe to change the air filter. In your garage, with some buddies, a case of beer, and football on the TV.

With the greatest respect, that's a really arsey thing to say.

I'm as big a Miata fan as anyone but from just about any car enthusiast I can think of (who isn't some sort of tuning crowd elitist) I'd get more respect with the proper, focused sports car. I.e. the Elise.

And you happily ignored the bit where I mentioned that you can get an Elise in the UK for about £5k. Or about $7,800. One of the original S1s, which weigh less than 750kg and do 60 in under six seconds. And unlike a Miata that age (in the UK at least) it won't be rusty.

You also seem oblivious still that you can modify pretty much anything for a certain budget and make it quicker than something else. It misses the point and it's unfair to compare a modified car with a completely stock one.

As for the "all around the better car" comment, that's so subjective it's hilarious. Huge numbers of Elise owners over here commute in them every day (one of my friends used to own one and carried all his Air Force kit in it, every day on a 40-mile each-way commute, in all weathers) so if they were that terrible I can't see why people would do that to themselves. Not to mention that a standard Elise goes, stops, steers, grips, handles and rides better than a stock Miata... now "handling" is subjective but all those other points are fairly objective...
 
In the interest of not dragging this on too long I'll just stop arguing about the current car. I generally feel that adding weight to a car simply makes it worse most of the time, and I've lost quite a lot of respect for Lotus not adhering to it's founder's ethos. The only fairly mainstream company that was so adamant about light weight for years now, producing only the Elise and Exige, has gone the way of every other company out there. Just like BMW, advertising "The Ultimate Driving Machine" when they're smallest offerings are approaching 2 tons. Lotus has pretty much defaulted on the philosophy that they were founded on in the name of profit.

Mazda, on the other hand, started by making Kei cars. They didn't begin with a sporty identity, they created it. They're the only company putting their ridiculous rotary engine in production because that's the identity they want, they've applied to numerous flagship sports cars which set this sporting identity in stone, they're the makers of the most popular light weight sports car in history, they still make it, and want to get back to its roots next time, and of course they still make cars for everybody just like the did in the beginning. Mazda is pretty honest. Lotus just isn't anymore. I feel lied to, and I find it astonishing that everyone is isn't raving about this.

Maybe I'm a Mazda fanboy now, but who wouldn't want to support a company with such an honest philosophy and brave endeavors.
 
In the interest of not dragging this on too long I'll just stop arguing about the current car. I generally feel that adding weight to a car simply makes it worse most of the time, and I've lost quite a lot of respect for Lotus not adhering to it's founder's ethos. The only fairly mainstream company that was so adamant about light weight for years now, producing only the Elise and Exige, has gone the way of every other company out there. Just like BMW, advertising "The Ultimate Driving Machine" when they're smallest offerings are approaching 2 tons. Lotus has pretty much defaulted on the philosophy that they were founded on in the name of profit.
This argument would work except:
The Esprit was never light and it was launched (and updated) within Chapman's lifetime. Sure, the S1 was a metric tonne - which is some fabled promised land these days - but look at the other cars of the day. It weighed 25% more than the Golf GTi, 12% more than an Escort RS and 10% more than an Opel Kadett, while coming in at 30% less than a Datsun 280Z.

Flash forwards 33 years and the Esprit now weighs 1,450kg. That's almost identical to the top Golf (Golf R), 1.1% less than the Focus RS and 11% less than the top Astra, while coming in at 20% less than a Nissan GT-R.


In terms of what's around it, the Esprit is lighter now than it ever was. So who's going against Chapman?

Mazda, on the other hand, started by making Kei cars. They didn't begin with a sporty identity, they created it. They're the only company putting their ridiculous rotary engine in production because that's the identity they want, they've applied to numerous flagship sports cars which set this sporting identity in stone, they're the makers of the most popular light weight sports car in history, they still make it, and want to get back to its roots next time, and of course they still make cars for everybody just like the did in the beginning. Mazda is pretty honest. Lotus just isn't anymore. I feel lied to, and I find it astonishing that everyone is isn't raving about this.
This is a ridiculous argument.

You've gone from talking about how you can build a Miata to compete with an Elise to how Mazda is an honest company & Lotus isn't because the Elise isn't as light as it used be.

I honestly believe Keef, that you don't clearly understand what Lotus is doing. Car's get heavy with age, that's how the technology is evolving. To sit here & suddenly act like that adding weight has suddenly made the car terrible is stupid, it really is. If adding weight made a car worse, how on earth has 2 cars that tip scales close/at 4,000lbs. done so amazingly well on a race track? Even BMW has made the E92 300lbs. heavier than the E46 & it still remains as the benchmark for Audi, Mercedes, Cadillac, & now Ford to run up against.
 
Weight causes problems that ultimately can only be overcome by less of it. More stress on the brakes, no matter how good the brakes are, and more stress on tires, no matter how good the tires are. It's a fact that weight is the enemy of performance, and technology is only hiding that reality. I feel that is a temporary condition and eventually cars will simply need to start shedding weight, simple as that.
 
I'm quite positive if Lotus could have knocked anymore weight off the Elise, I'm sure they would. It's not like Lotus thought, "I think that's ok" & left it at that. :rolleyes:

What's funny is that while I don't disagree that weight hurts performance, history has proven that manufacturers can overcome it & that technology is doing a fine job of hiding it b/c it continues to advance. Again, the GT-R is the prime example. Whilst it weighs 3,800lbs., the tech. is so advanced that the weight hardly looks as if it even affects it compared to the car's competition.
 
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Weight causes problems that ultimately can only be overcome by less of it. More stress on the brakes, no matter how good the brakes are, and more stress on tires, no matter how good the tires are. It's a fact that weight is the enemy of performance, and technology is only hiding that reality. I feel that is a temporary condition and eventually cars will simply need to start shedding weight, simple as that.

If I'm not mistaken, the VW group will start some intensive weight loss program, which includes extensive usage of aluminium on normal road cars. Less weight means that less torque is necessary to achieve sub-6 seconds times from 0 to 60, being so, the engines could be downsized, the fuel economy would be improved and the list of benefits goes on.

What Nissan achieved with the GTR is tremendous, however, car companies are inclined to reduce the weight in their cars up to a percentage of 20% in the next decade, and that's wonderful.

What Lotus is doing is moving upmarket, which necessarily implies the demand for more comfort and power, the weight gain is inevitable then. Also, 1000 kilos in a car which has almost 300 bhp is pretty impressive and would make the Elise a very nice performer as well.
 
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You mean more than simply using the name of the car Lotus makes that already exists in that class?

Which one? The Evora?

The Evora is a 2+2. The Elise is not. The Evora is also a bit of a semi-GT. I'm presuming the next Elise won't be. Even considering the changes, the interior on it still looks relatively spartan.
 
Because Lotus has an upmarket Elise to begin with, the Europa, that also fits the description of this 2,400lb S3 Elise, you're suggesting using the existing name. I thought you guys were talking about Elan being a name used to theoretically replace the Evora, which maybe should have been named the Europa to begin with if it wasn't for that new Proton Europa abomination.

I misunderstood what you were suggesting and got lost in all the E's. Either way, the latest Europa isn't in production anymore anyway, and they hardly sold any. Eclat was always a tad porky, name something after than :p
 
The Europa was an unfortunate failure. It all could have been so nice... an Elise for people who don't fit in the Elise. Apparently, it was just too big for the hardcore Elise fans and too small to appeal to traditional sportscar buyers (the Cayman crowd). The Evora fullfills that role better... but a full-sized Esprit is still needed for more (sales) volume.

Personally... I don't really care if Lotus builds full-sized cars... as long as they're lighter than the rest of the class for the same interior space, I'm sold.

What I do care about is that Lotus is still using Toyota engines. The V10 will likely be good in Lotus trim, and the high revving 1.8s suit the Elise/Exige line well, but the Evora deserves so much better than that horrid V6.
 
Again, the GT-R is the prime example. Whilst it weighs 3,800lbs., the tech. is so advanced that the weight hardly looks as if it even affects it compared to the car's competition.

It doesn't drive like it weighs more than a panel van either. I have no idea how they've done it, but it's actually nimble.

Also, I agree. Few cars - but Lotus in particular - weigh any more than they have to. All manufacturers are aware that weight kills performance, wears parts and hurts fuel economy - and when they're being penalised for their carbon emissions (or "fuel economy") and paying out under warranty for worn suspension and brakes, it makes no financial sense to make a car any heavier than it ought to be. Maybe some luxury cars have more sound-proofing and deadening to make them all quiet and smooth, but a brash, noisy luxury car isn't going to sell. People expect Loti to be noisy and naked metal everywhere, so they can get away with it.
 
Why do the Elise, Elan and Esprit look exactly alike. I mean, if they're trying to steal a page from Porsche, well done, but seriously...it's a Goldielocks syndrome: the Big Esprit, the little Elise and the just right Elan...which is weird, 'cause the old Elan is smaller than the Elise....by a lot. The Elan looks like a Lambo clone, and the rest are just....ahead of their time. I mean, in 2020, when electric cars rule again and there's a robot in every house, not because we buy them at the store, but because we, essentially, are robots, then I can see these cars rolling down the road. They seriously look like something out of a futuristic movie. I don't know. Mixed feelings for me.

EDIT:

As for the new Europa, it's a shared design as Dodge is going to be using the same body for their EV car. I don't know if that means the Europa will cease production then, but, it'll be weird having two cars with the same body but different interals....they'll be brothers literally from different mothers.

Dodge-EV.jpg

Lotus-Europa-Turners-fq.jpg


Edit: Lotus is going to change the Europa design:

2010-lotus-europa-i6-concept-02.jpg



By the way, who is Lotus owned by now?
 
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Edit: Lotus is going to change the Europa design:

2010-lotus-europa-i6-concept-02.jpg



By the way, who is Lotus owned by now?

That has got nothing to do with Lotus

It’s been a while since we last heard of South African designer Idries Noah but now he’s back, this time with a new design proposition called the Lotus Europa i6.

They are currently owned by Proton who are sinking approx £700 million into progressing the brand.
 
As for the new Europa, it's a shared design as Dodge is going to be using the same body for their EV car. I don't know if that means the Europa will cease production then, but, it'll be weird having two cars with the same body but different interals....they'll be brothers literally from different mothers.

Can't see that Dodge will use the Europa as a basis for their EV car. Tesla will have to stop selling the Roadster in 2011 when Lotus stop making the current Elise/Exige. Since the Europa uses the same chassis, i can't see any vehicle using that chassis since it's unlikely to be made any more. Dodge could take up chassis production themselves but i can't see that being very cost effective for such a low volume.
 
As for the new Europa, it's a shared design as Dodge is going to be using the same body for their EV car.

It's not a shared design. Dodge commissioned Lotus to do the work on that EV car. Lotus developed the drivetrain and stuck it in their car, put a Dodge tag on it.

I don't know if that means the Europa will cease production then

The Europa is already out of production.

it'll be weird having two cars with the same body but different interals....they'll be brothers literally from different mothers.

They were never going to be in the same market so it wouldn't have made any difference. They would be from the same mothers because Lotus would have manufactured the car for Dodge, then shipped them over.

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The Europa itself is a bit of a strange case for Lotus. Proton hired Lotus to come up with a sportscar for the Asian market, still under the Proton name. The car was seen testing there alongside other Proton test cars. Their marketing team decided that there wasn't enough of a demand for an Elise with more accessibility and comfort, so the car was shipped back to England, and Lotus just decided to release it under their own brand. That's why it doesn't look anything at all like their current brand, and it doesn't seem like Lotus lost any money at all, even with the poor sales.
 
No. The Europa.

I suspect they edged away from that once since the last Europa was a flop. Elise on the other hand is a byword for a great sports car. Makes sense to re-utilise it. Plus, the new car will still be the baby of the range for the forseeable future. Just a baby that's on steroids.

The Europa itself is a bit of a strange case for Lotus. Proton hired Lotus to come up with a sportscar for the Asian market, still under the Proton name. The car was seen testing there alongside other Proton test cars. Their marketing team decided that there wasn't enough of a demand for an Elise with more accessibility and comfort, so the car was shipped back to England, and Lotus just decided to release it under their own brand. That's why it doesn't look anything at all like their current brand, and it doesn't seem like Lotus lost any money at all, even with the poor sales.

Probably because they already had rights to the engine (wasn't it the one from the VX220 turbo? If so, I'm sure Vauxhall would have provided it cheaply since they used the Lotus chassis...) and the rest of it was basically an Elise anyway with different bodywork. I suspect it took very little re-engineering to turn Elise into Europa.
 
and the rest of it was basically an Elise anyway with different bodywork. I suspect it took very little re-engineering to turn Elise into Europa.

And Proton footed that bill because it was meant to be commissioned to them. All they had to do was throw the badge on, really...

protonsportscar16zl.jpg


protonsportscar25js.jpg
 
Interview by Autocar with Lotus's new CEO Dany Bahar.

Autocar
Lotus: How we're going to do it

Lotus stunned the world last week with the launch of six new models at the Paris motor show that will take the Norfolk firm right into the heart of Aston Martin, Porsche and Ferrari territory. Many commentators have expressed extreme scepticism over the plans, so Steve Cropley went to meet Lotus's new CEO Dany Bahar for the inside story on how the firm will carry out its radical plan.

“I always had a weakness for this brand,” says Hethel’s rule-changing CEO of the past 12 months, Dany Bahar. “Even while I was working at Ferrari, I knew Lotus was special. But to me, the products weren’t doing justice to the great name and heritage.”

Bahar, who sounds like a soft-voiced Michael Schumacher when he speaks, comes across as a far more emollient character than the person portrayed on the rumour-mill for the 12 months he has so far spent in the main man’s seat at Lotus, avoiding interviews while he put his radical changes into action.

He settles comfortably in an armchair as we talk, resting one leg comfortably on the other and displaying the sharpest trouser creases I’ve ever seen.

“We want our new cars to be as big as the brand itself,” he explains. “The previous management tried hard to do that with the Evora, but they had to leave everything else the same. Our new plan means we have the opportunity to change everything — to do things from a better position — and that’s what we’re going to do.”

Bahar readily acknowledges outsiders’ worries about his plan — raising the investment, finding the buyers, delivering the quality — and deals calmly with them, one by one. “Our investment is confirmed,” he insists. “Our shareholders have lost a lot of money at Lotus over the past 14 years, and they wanted to stop that. There were two options: sell the company or run it to its potential. They made the second choice.”

But just how dependable is the solvency of Lotus’s owner, Proton, given its well-known past losses and market difficulties? Bahar points to its strong links with the Petronas oil company and with the Malaysian government.

“They’re strong,” he says. “They have their own aggressive plan to lift production to a million cars over the next five to seven years, from around 350,000. Besides that, they’re fun to work with. They have 1000 engineers of their own, and Lotus is already making use of those as capacity allows to work on third-party engineering projects. It’s a great partnership.”

Bahar insists that although his name is on the recovery plan, it wasn’t simply something he dreamed up. “I asked people,” he says. “I'm not a car guy. We did lots of research and I consulted people I trust, some of whom liked the idea so much they now work in the business. That part feels good; knowing there are people who believe we can do this thing just as passionately as I do.”

Downsides? Bahar is disappointed by the reaction of the UK’s coalition government to Lotus’s requests for loans to finance its plant development. “We were asking for loans,” he says, “not grants. We could have 1200 new manufacturing jobs here under the new plans. They complimented us on our presentation, and the whole thing looked a no-brainer. But we learned it wasn’t a no-brainer…”

Now, Bahar says, they’ll make more use of outside suppliers. “We’ll do what we have to do here, but we’ll outsource things that aren’t our speciality — just like every other modern manufacturer does. That, and clever design, will help a lot with the quality thing. We won’t try to be experts at leather work. We’ll find people who can deliver it.

Bahar, a study in coolness, becomes almost excited when the talk turns to motorsport. “Lotus’s DNA is based on racing,” he says. “No other company has ever had such a wide spread of success: F1, other open-wheelers, Le Mans, sports cars, GTs. Why would we discard such treasure, when it’s where the brand’s authenticity comes from?

“Besides,” says Bahar, “racing has a big impact on the road cars. After they have been tested by the best drivers, you feel safe to take them to the maximum.”
 
It's disappointing that the government doesn't want to be a part of it. They should be investing in manufacturing and engineering in this country.
 
But they don't exactly have a good reputation, or experience, for doing it.

I can understand why they haven't though, if the skills are available from (hopefully British) contractors who would probably need to employ further anyway I don't see why the government should have to assist.
 
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