Parkland FL HS shooting, shooter arrested, 17 dead

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I agree to a point. Handing out guns like candy is just begging for trouble. However, assuming that number of teachers are armed in proportion to either the number of buildings in the school (like three per building)or in proportion to the student population, then costs will be lowered in both training and safety.
It is claimed there are no mass shootings in schools in Israel. And precisely because a certain proportion of teachers are trained and armed. Given the choice of endlessly repeating school massacres, and fighting the problem with trained and armed persons on the side of the children, I would justify this option. And it would doable, unlike rewriting the constitution.
 
It is claimed there are no mass shootings in schools in Israel. And precisely because a certain proportion of teachers are trained and armed. Given the choice of endlessly repeating school massacres, and fighting the problem with trained and armed persons on the side of the children, I would justify this option. And it would doable, unlike rewriting the constitution.

And it's inconceivable that those armed teachers can't possibly suffer from the same mental health issues that these 'troubled' students do? Have you ever met a high school teacher?
 
And it's inconceivable that those armed teachers can't possibly suffer from the same mental health issues that these 'troubled' students do? Have you ever met a high school teacher?
My father, a petroleum geologist, was a miserable drunk and a near failure at everything he tried, including marriage. At the age of 13, I met a teacher who became, in effect, my foster father. He taught me how to weld and how to drive. He raced a Triumph TR2. He taught middle school and later high school. We mountain climbed together and I lived next door to him for many years. He has passed now, but I'll be eternally grateful to him. My mother was a teacher. I've known many, many teachers. None of them suffered anything like the mental health issues of "these 'troubled' students". Although my high school friend Don became a high school teacher, and was a lush.
 
My father, a petroleum geologist, was a miserable drunk and a near failure at everything he tried, including marriage. At the age of 13, I met a teacher who became, in effect, my foster father. He taught me how to weld and how to drive. He raced a Triumph TR2. He taught middle school and later high school. We mountain climbed together and I lived next door to him for many years. He has passed now, but I'll be eternally grateful to him. My mother was a teacher. I've known many, many teachers. None of them suffered anything like the mental health issues of "these 'troubled' students". Although my high school friend Don became a high school teacher, and was a lush.


And i'm sure you could say the same for the vast majority of school kids too.

The job of teaching, like many professions, is only getting harder as the perks that were once the redeeming factor dwindled away and in some regards replaced by layers of administration bull. I too have had many friends who have been teachers. Some have battled their way through to retirement but most gave it up to do something completely different. Universally they all hated it or hated what the job became. These are the seeds of mental health problems. To think that a teacher couldn't possibly get to the point where they snap and do something rash is a little naive.
 
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And i'm sure you could say the same for the vast majority of school kids too.
Definitely. In my day and age, there was NO SUCH THING as mass school shootings by students. But now something has changed. Whatever that change exactly is, I suggest that it cannot be for the good, or for the better. I would hope that a responsible society would take steps to both understand this and implement means of bringing it to a stop, and do it without diminishing the rights and freedoms of the status quo ante.
 
I don't know. I think some of our teenagers are looking to it as a way to give their life some kind of meaning. Not sure... but maybe outside of the US you would actually do something about someone who had threatened to shoot up a school and demonstrated dangerous tendencies in psychiatric evaluations. In the US we send them out the door to the gun shop across the street.

This reminds me... yesterday TV said a student had threatened to shoot up a school on the school's Facebook page. Likewise, a couple of years ago a student found a threat on one of my college's bathroom stalls. A lot of people missed college on the day the shooting was supposed to happen, I simply went to class anyways since I was pretty sure nothing would occur. At least in Argentina it feels like these treaths are usually false alarms with the purpose of scaring people than actual things that happen.

Looking it up on Wikipedia, it appears there's only been one school shooting in Argentina. Three dead, five injured. Gun used was a 9mm Browning that belonged to the teen's father (Naval sub-officer).
 
Definitely. In my day and age, there was NO SUCH THING as mass school shootings by students. But now something has changed. Whatever that change exactly is, I suggest that it cannot be for the good, or for the better. I would hope that a responsible society would take steps to both understand this and implement means of bringing it to a stop, and do it without diminishing the rights and freedoms of the status quo ante.

Wikipedia has you covered:


Sandyhook is just such a tough entry there. I have trouble even looking at that line.


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Incidentally, I attended one of those schools (not during the shooting).
 
Wikipedia has you covered:


Sandyhook is just such a tough entry there. I have trouble even looking at that line.


Edit:

Incidentally, I attended one of those schools (not during the shooting).
Apples and oranges. Your list include the Charles Whitman Texas Tower shooting. Whitman was an adult, and an ex-Marine. My post was about mass shootings by students.

You should think about what has happened in modern times that has precipitated these (mass shootings in schools by students) atrocities.
 
Apples and oranges. Your list include the Charles Whitman Texas Tower shooting. Whitman was an adult, and an ex-Marine. My post was about mass shootings by students.

You should think about what has happened in modern times that has precipitated these (mass shootings in schools by students) atrocities.

So you weren't talking about the shooting in this thread then? I don't understand why you're making the distinction you're making, but my list both rebuts your position and supports it, depending on which part you're looking at.
 
So you weren't talking about the shooting in this thread then?
Good question. Cruz was 19 and not currently enrolled in that particular school. But on balance, I'd say he was a student, and not an adult or ex-Marine.

How are you with trained and armed teachers?
 
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Good question. Cruz was 19 and not currently enrolled in that particular school. But on balance, I'd say he was a student, and not an adult or ex-Marine.

I don't think you should limit your point to students. I'll do some leg work and figure out how many of these were by students.



Yup, school shooting by students was not really a thing in your day. But it has only happened twice in the last 10 years. And in the last 20 years, only 4 times by someone under age 20 (who was also a student). Contrast that to 3 times by someone under age 20 between 1996 and 1997 (admittedly with a very low body count).

By the way (to all in this thread), guns have been legal the entire time. So are we still blaming guns or can we admit that something else is changing?
 
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I don't think you should limit your point to students. I'll do some leg work and figure out how many of these were by students.



Yup, school shooting by students was not really a thing in your day. But it has only happened twice in the last 10 years. And in the last 20 years, only 4 times by someone under age 20. Contrast that to 3 times by someone under age 20 between 1996 and 1997 (admittedly with a very low body count).

By the way (to all in this thread), guns have been legal the entire time. So are we still blaming guns or can we admit that something else is changing?
From your list it can be seen that the phenomenon really began to pick up steam in the mid-nineties. But in my mind, the Columbine massacre sticks out like a sore thumb. In that case, psychiatry prescription anti-depressants may have played role.
 
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From your list it can be seen that the phenomenon really began to pick up steam in the mid-nineties. But in my mind, the Columbine massacre sticks out like a sore thumb.

I think one of the most striking things from my list is that the most recent shootings (some of the most deadly in history) are largely perpetrated by non-students, many times adults. But this phenomenon, while picking up steam, is not necessarily new. The 60s University of Texas shooting seems to fit the current theme - angry adult men looking for fish in a barrel.
 
I think one of the most striking things from my list is that the most recent shootings (some of the most deadly in history) are largely perpetrated by non-students, many times adults. But this phenomenon, while picking up steam, is not necessarily new. The 60s University of Texas shooting seems to fit the current theme - angry adult men looking for fish in a barrel.
That reminds me of the phrase "angry young men", meaning disillusion with society, but armed.
 
In somewhat lighter news, Peter Wang, the Army JROTC student who lost his life helping students evacuate, has been awarded the Medal of Heroism, alongside two other JROTC students who were killed. Cadet Wang has also been posthumously added to the West Point Class of 2025.

These kids went above and beyond to save their fellow classmates, something that hopefully won't be forgotten anytime soon.
 
It is claimed there are no mass shootings in schools in Israel. And precisely because a certain proportion of teachers are trained and armed.

What about every other country that also manages it without having guns in the hands of select teachers?
 
What about every other country that also manages it without having guns in the hands of select teachers?
Maybe you have good point there, and thanks for your question, Shaun. All I can answer, not having been to Israel, is that they are said to have numerous "terrorist" threats there inside and nearby their country. It also may be that the "angry, disillusioned youth" on anti-depressants (mental health issues) are handled better in some other countries than in the USA. I wish I had all the answers. In the meantime, I'm working on a time machine in my basement, to take us back to happier, more sane times. Would you like to contribute? :D
 
Maybe you have good point there, and thanks for your question, Shaun. All I can answer, not having been to Israel, is that they are said to have numerous "terrorist" threats there inside and nearby their country. It also may be that the "angry, disillusioned youth" on anti-depressants (mental health issues) are handled better in some other countries than in the USA. I wish I had all the answers. In the meantime, I'm working on a time machine in my basement, to take us back to happier, more sane times. Would you like to contribute? :D

When would that be?

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When would that be?

6a00d83451b14d69e2017ee653b568970d-500wi
So far, due to technical challenges, my time machine is limited to only 3 stable time settings, 1118 AD, 1418 BC, and 6718 BC, and operates only where it is located. I need your funding to move it to a small fishing village on the French Mediterranean coast.
 
The thoughts and prayers meme is a really disrespectful meme that isn't helpful. Antagonising people for no reason. All it does is stroke the ego of consequentialist assholes who arrogantly posit their assertions.

It's politician-speak for "I'm not going to do anything about, even though I could actually try help, but it would piss off my donors and constituents." But of course, they won't just be upfront about their opinions. It's pseudo-religious eyewash by now.

It's mentioned in the arena in which thoughts are encouraged, and by not actually saying those thoughts, I'm left thinking how intellectually dishonest or even vacuously stupid those politicians, celebrities, or Internet goofwidgets really are. Bonus plagues for the increasingly gaunt media for blindly accepting that as an answer towards anything.

How ironic that the anti-PC crowd hasn't seen that tree from the rest of the woods, while everyone else sees right through it.
 
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It's politician-speak for "I'm not going to do anything about, even though I could actually try help, but it would piss off my donors and constituents." But of course, they won't just be upfront about their opinions. It's pseudo-religious eyewash by now.

It's mentioned in the arena in which thoughts are encouraged, and by not actually saying those thoughts, I'm left thinking how intellectually dishonest or even vacuously stupid those politicians, celebrities, or Internet goofwidgets really are. Bonus plagues for the increasingly gaunt media for blindly accepting that as an answer towards anything.

How ironic that the anti-PC crowd hasn't seen that tree from the rest of the woods, while everyone else sees right through it.

I don't think it's meant to be an answer towards anything. I don't know why anyone would expect politicians (of all people) to have an answer for something the moment the news hits the headlines. It is merely a condolence, offered in the most non-offensive way they could think of (not that I could think of, but that they could think of apparently).

Question: Does that chart count self-defense homicides, or ignore them all together?

@Danoff

I'd imagine that would not be included as murder... but I don't have time at the moment to make sure that's the case.
 
Please explain Logic:

Drugs kill people=ban drugs, jail drug dealers
Guns kill people=no, people kill people, guns do not! Buy your favorite gun/semi-automatic* weapon at you local retailer!

Immigrant shooting=keep them out of the country. We should have an immigration ban/ build wall!
White persoon Shooting=There is nothing that we could have done. We can only give thoughts, prayers and should arm more people to “protect” themselves. Don’t Politicize this tragedy!

Drug related deaths= War on drugs! Make it harder for people to get drugs!
Gun related deaths= Let’s do away with background checks/gun control. Make it easier to buy guns!

I really don’t understand it and probably never will.

* edited
 
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Please explain Logic:

Drugs kill people=ban drugs, jail drug dealers
Guns kill people=no, people kill people, guns do not! Buy your favorite gun/automatic weapon at you local retailer!

Immigrant shooting=keep them out of the country. We should have an immigration ban/ build wall!
White persoon Shooting=There is nothing that we could have done. We can only give thoughts, prayers and should arm more people to “protect” themselves. Don’t Politicize this tragedy!

Drug related deaths= War on drugs! Make it harder for people to get drugs!
Gun related deaths= Let’s do away with background checks/gun control. Make it easier to buy guns!

I really don’t understand it and probably never will.

Society has an insane number of double standards and contradicting opinions. It’s not just one side of the aisle that does it either.

You are correct that it’s impossible to understand and will never be understandable.
 
Please explain Logic:

Drugs kill people=ban drugs, jail drug dealers
Guns kill people=no, people kill people, guns do not! Buy your favorite gun/automatic weapon at you local retailer!

Immigrant shooting=keep them out of the country. We should have an immigration ban/ build wall!
White persoon Shooting=There is nothing that we could have done. We can only give thoughts, prayers and should arm more people to “protect” themselves. Don’t Politicize this tragedy!

Drug related deaths= War on drugs! Make it harder for people to get drugs!
Gun related deaths= Let’s do away with background checks/gun control. Make it easier to buy guns!

I really don’t understand it and probably never will.

You're absolutely correct. Drugs shouldn't be illegal in the first place.
 
Please explain Logic:

Drugs kill people=ban drugs, jail drug dealers
Guns kill people=no, people kill people, guns do not! Buy your favorite gun/automatic weapon at you local retailer!

Immigrant shooting=keep them out of the country. We should have an immigration ban/ build wall!
White persoon Shooting=There is nothing that we could have done. We can only give thoughts, prayers and should arm more people to “protect” themselves. Don’t Politicize this tragedy!

Drug related deaths= War on drugs! Make it harder for people to get drugs!
Gun related deaths= Let’s do away with background checks/gun control. Make it easier to buy guns!

I really don’t understand it and probably never will.

Unlike the NRA drug cartels don't have a strong lobby group...
It's the same neverending discussion everytime one of those many tragedies happens and as usual (almost) nothing will be done about it.

You know, I can understand that the Second Amendment guarantees US citizens the freedom to carry a gun and while I don't necessarily agree with it I can respect that.
But you can tell me what you want, you do NOT need semi automatic rifles with bump stocks and extended magazines to protect your home and family or to go on a hunting trip.
 
You know, I can understand that the Second Amendment guarantees US citizens the freedom to carry a gun and while I don't necessarily agree with it I can respect that.
But you can tell me what you want, you do NOT need semi automatic rifles with bump stocks and extended magazines to protect your home and family or to go on a hunting trip.

Perhaps not, but they're more useful in opposing an oppressive government. See the Declaration of Independence.
 

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