PD equating speed to difficulty

[nickg07]

Since even the beginning PD have seeming equated speed to difficulty. Just because I have completed C, B, A doesn't mean that I now only want to race faster cars and LMPs.

This problem seems to be based on how PD organise the categories of their racing.

I'd love to run 500pp cars in 'S' class series but say longer laps, fuel and pitstops and increased payouts - with more challenging AI. And that's the key point.

I don't want to only have to drive 700pp cars and above to earn monies. And single lap seasonal aren't the same thing either.

So why is it that in order to get money you only have the option of nascar/gt3/etc in the higher race classes?

Anyone else on my wavelength here?

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I see where you're coming from, but when you think about a real life racing career, usually you look to step up into faster spec cars as you progress, with the pinnacle being Formula 1. Going from a faster spec championship to a slower spec is normally seen as taking a step back.

There's little money to be made in lower speed motorsports, the money and the sponsership comes with the big boys in the real world, and GT is supposed to be a sim so that's my guess as to why GT's career follows a similar path.

There are a few road car championships in the A + S categories though, I usually raced 500-550pp cars on CS/SH tires in them for a fun challenge.

 

[VBR]

I see where you're coming from, but when you think about a real life racing career, usually you look to step up into faster spec cars as you progress, with the pinnacle being Formula 1. Going from a faster spec championship to a slower spec is normally seen as taking a step back.

True, but there's always the exception to the rule. For instance; when many F1 drivers were also running in the BTCC back in the 90's, because it got so awesome & popular.

 

[iCyCo]

I've been thinking this a while as I find myself longing to race lower spec cars like Civics, Evos, Imprezas in S class against similar cars, like say the PD Cup with longer races and fuel and tire wear.

And with arcade mode lacking tire wear and fuel depletion it really hits home this oversight in game design.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

True, but there's always the exception to the rule. For instance; when many F1 drivers were also running in the BTCC back in the 90's, because it got so awesome & popular.

But BTCC was the bee's knees in the late 80's-90's, who wouldn't have wanted to race in that? That era of racing will never be surpassed in my opinion, that was stella stuff that we'll never get to enjoy quite like that again.

 

[VBR]

But BTCC was the bee's knees in the late 80's-90's, who wouldn't have wanted to race in that? That era of racing will never be surpassed in my opinion, that was stella stuff that we'll never get to enjoy quite like that again.

Maybe we could enjoy something similar in Gran Turismo, I think that @nickg07 has a good point. Anyway, I don't want to go too far off topic but if you haven't seen it already, the Touring Car Legends 3 part documentary aired on ITV4 recently & you can still get it on Catch Up. One word; AWESOME!

 

[cjr3559]

I'm still an advocate of awarding higher payouts for challenging race scenarios similar to some of the GT5 Seasonals. If you choose a car that's well below the PP limit or use a lesser tire compound than the competition, you should be compensated.

 

[SavageEvil]

I get what you're saying but PD thinking does make sense as the higher the class of car the deeper the level on concentration as a mistake is much harder to come back from. Although PD can add a change to the payouts to match the level of difficulty such as high powered cars riding on street tires equates to even more concentration than driving on stickier tires. Or just put it the same across the board and increase pay depending on the amount of laps and participants.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Two Words: Event Creator

Everyone wins

 

[Mulan]

The logic is probably higher series pay more in real life. Since it is a real driving simulator you get that logic with money too.
But reality is that i always had more fun driving lower pp races. At least it was harder to pass all on first lap and races online were really fun, less destruction derby.
The payout should be the same, its about having fun driving what you like not driving cars you dont like just to earn some money.

 

[RacerPaul]

But BTCC was the bee's knees in the late 80's-90's, who wouldn't have wanted to race in that? That era of racing will never be surpassed in my opinion, that was stella stuff that we'll never get to enjoy quite like that again

You're giving away your drinking habits there I reckon

The word is stellar. I'm not having a pop at you, I just thought that was funny 👍

 

[nickg07]

Thanks for the feedback guys and I totally understand that in real life you can move up the formulas etc and the payouts increase.

However in real life there is no sunday cup. In game you can change difficulty of Ai and aren't restricted to sponsor money as you can pay out what you like in credits.

Event creator would definitely go towards this but it wouldn't be a core part of game progression with payouts etc. Arcade mode is okay but too limited to enjoy fully. It can only be recreated online and then payouts are awful and it requires like minded humans which can be in short supply on the time and date you want them.

edit maybe a simple solution might be to give the user a chance to platinum and reset each series once you've golded or bronzed the events. On a reset they would then be longer races with better payouts with tougher ai but the same PP and tyre restrictions?

 

[lcompx]

I'm definitely disappointed that the endurance races are limited to race cars and super high performance production cars. I really enjoy racing lower pp cars so I've been spending a lot of time with arcade mode since I finished the platinum, but since arcade races don't pay credits I feel like I'm forced to choose between actually progressing and earning credits or racing with cars I enjoy the most. It would sure be nice if I could do both instead of choosing either/or.

 

[Johnnypenso]

edit maybe a simple solution might be to give the user a chance to platinum and reset each series once you've golded or bronzed the events. On a reset they would then be longer races with better payouts with tougher ai but the same PP and tyre restrictions?

It's been mentioned before but bears repeating. How about we have the option to set the number of laps of any race in career mode and payouts adjust accordingly? Combine this with a difficulty slider and allowing you to choose from a range of opponents (Event Creator), fix the AI of course, and you have virtually unlimited replay ability with very little effort on PD's part, outside of fixing the AI.

 

[ShiftingGears]

I don't like PD separating events into different classes of difficulty like in GT5. Because the cars just get faster or more expensive, the AI doesn't actually improve in any significant way, so it isn't really more difficult at all. Proper AI and Career options are well overdue.

 

[nickg07]

I don't like PD separating events into different classes of difficulty like in GT5. Because the cars just get faster or more expensive, the AI doesn't actually improve in any significant way, so it isn't really more difficult at all. Proper AI and Career options are well overdue.

The difficulty comes down to can you concentrate for x amount of laps at 240mph and still slow down for a hairpin and not spinyourself backwards into a hedge. Currently anyway. It is a personal test of mental attrition.

 

[gambleboyen]

I see where you're coming from, but when you think about a real life racing career, usually you look to step up into faster spec cars as you progress, with the pinnacle being Formula 1. Going from a faster spec championship to a slower spec is normally seen as taking a step back.

There's little money to be made in lower speed motorsports, the money and the sponsership comes with the big boys in the real world, and GT is supposed to be a sim so that's my guess as to why GT's career follows a similar path.

There are a few road car championships in the A + S categories though, I usually raced 500-550pp cars on CS/SH tires in them for a fun challenge.

Yes, but when the AI is equally dumb no matyter how fast you go, it wears the patience with the game very thin.

 

[Samus]

The difficulty comes down to can you concentrate for x amount of laps at 240mph and still slow down for a hairpin and not spinyourself backwards into a hedge. Currently anyway. It is a personal test of mental attrition.

Problem with that is a) X is usually no more than 5, so hardly a huge mental test b) there is no damage to properly punish mistakes and c) the AI will help you catch up if you do make a mistake.

 

[lazywolfe]

Apr 9 2014

 

[Bhowe83]

I'm definitely disappointed that the endurance races are limited to race cars and super high performance production cars. I really enjoy racing lower pp cars so I've been spending a lot of time with arcade mode since I finished the platinum, but since arcade races don't pay credits I feel like I'm forced to choose between actually progressing and earning credits or racing with cars I enjoy the most. It would sure be nice if I could do both instead of choosing either/or.

I'm more disappointed in the fact that the endurance races are 24 minutes. That doesn't even constitute to a sprint race.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I was actually going to disagree with you about money, but then I researched and saw this:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/the_road_ahead/the-evolution-of-driver-salaries
"Then, with a verifiable display of talent and success, comes the desire to get paid to drive those racing cars. The desire part is easy. And the getting paid part? It gets harder every year—even for proven winners and past champions. With the near financial collapse of 2008 placing an enduring strain on the global economy, driver salaries from the 1990s look like fantasy figures compared to what some of the best earn today."

"There are six or seven guys making over a million in IndyCar today, I reckon,” added Franchitti, who starred at a time in the late 1990s when the biggest names could bank $6-8 million a season. “But most of the guys are nowhere near that. It was good for those of us who drove during those times, but those kinds of salaries are a fantasy today."

@nickg07, I agree that there should at least be more variety in laps and harder AI in that PP range of races.
But as far as payouts, it would be interesting if your talent made the game pay you more, even for the lower spec races. Simulating what Franchitti mentions about only a few top guys getting high salaries, even though the average is very low. It would be incentive to race better. The game could keep track of your lap times, wins, how often you go off track, etc, and then use those bits to determine that you are a top tier racer and you can get higher payouts (salary).

...Yeah, I know. None of that will happen.

The real problem with the game's economy IMO is that there is no separation of game modes or money earned from those modes. If you want to do some PP racing online from 400-550 you need a good 100 cars to be competitive and have fun if you plan on putting some time into it but you need to play the rest of the game in order to fund it, even if you hate racing or driving offline.

If the game modes were separated into Online Career, Offline Career, Time Trial, GT Classic (same as you have now) etc. and prizes and garages were separate, you could tailor your own game experience to suit your needs. In Online Career Mode for example, maybe you start out with 5 cars, all Spec and unchangeable and have to race them to win money and build your online garage. Completely separate lobbies from those wishing to just run random PP races and other stuff. Matchmaking lobbies could be set up by PD that are there all the time with set race lengths and start times. Then you would have a completely separate offline career, starting with just one car and a small bank account and you have to earn your way into higher series, be offered contracts or buy rides, with adjustable difficulty and variable race lengths.

There is so much more that can be done with this game, it's very frustrating to see it remain stagnant for so long.

 

[lcompx]

I'm more disappointed in the fact that the endurance races are 24 minutes. That doesn't even constitute to a sprint race.

Yeah, I feel the same way. I've never understood why racing games are afraid of having longer races; in my experience an average game of Madden with the default settings last around 40 minutes and it doesn't seem to bother anyone. Why is it always assumed that races longer than 10 minutes will bother people. I would love it if the average race was more in the 20/30 minute range with longer races for finales/endures/etc.

I don't think it applies to GT6's AI so much with the rolling starts and rubber banding, but I feel like the short race lengths in Forza 4 really broke the games difficulty. The early races in that game were short 2 or 3 lap affairs and going from 6th to 1st in 2 laps could be a real challenge at some tracks, but then the longer 12 lap races at the end of the career were super easy even on the hardest difficulty. The AI needed to be significantly faster to make the longer races challenging, but if the AI was made any faster those early 2 lap races would have been nearly impossible to win. It seems like making all the races a more reasonable length would go a long way towards alleviating these problems with race difficulty.

 

[Bhowe83]

Yeah, I feel the same way. I've never understood why racing games are afraid of having longer races; in my experience an average game of Madden with the default settings last around 40 minutes and it doesn't seem to bother anyone. Why is it always assumed that races longer than 10 minutes will bother people. I would love it if the average race was more in the 20/30 minute range with longer races for finales/endures/etc.

I don't think it applies to GT6's AI so much with the rolling starts and rubber banding, but I feel like the short race lengths in Forza 4 really broke the games difficulty. The early races in that game were short 2 or 3 lap affairs and going from 6th to 1st in 2 laps could be a real challenge at some tracks, but then the longer 12 lap races at the end of the career were super easy even on the hardest difficulty. The AI needed to be significantly faster to make the longer races challenging, but if the AI was made any faster those early 2 lap races would have been nearly impossible to win. It seems like making all the races a more reasonable length would go a long way towards alleviating these problems with race difficulty.

I wouldn't mind it if I didn't start 30 seconds back from the leader. In the short time allotted I have to take an overpowered car to make it to the lead.

If we could actually have a realistic start then I could have fun taking a car that is on par with the ai and have a good challenging race. But you just can't do that when you have to start 30+ seconds behind

 

[lazywolfe]

Apr 19 2014

 

[Z1-AV69]

Gran Turismo has always been more of a toolbox than a well directed game. You'll have to build your own fun out of some race in combination with the right car and tyres for your level.

Have you tried the Ascari S-class race? Once you learned the track properly you can win this with surprisingly low PP cars, it doesn't have unreal time effects and the payout is decent. The AI is much more fun to race against if you use 1-2 grades lesser tyres. Find the right combination for your skill or taste and you can have some fun.

 

[light driver]

I am in line whit the thread starter...The solution will - hopefully - come to us, when they launch some Seasonal RACE Events, like GT5...I cannot imagine this will NOT come...Looking forward to it...

 

[panjandrum]

I would love to see special events brought back like in GT4. In many of those you could run low PP cars and still rake in some bucks selling the prize cars over and over. It was the most fun of the series for me. I would take a car (Say, Alpine 1600) and then see how far I could get through the levels of events with it (either stock or tuned). A great series of races that I sorely miss.

 

[Exorcet]

This is indeed a bad stereotype in all racing. Even if you just want to follow the way it is in real life, that doesn't mean everything needs to be faster.

I get what you're saying but PD thinking does make sense as the higher the class of car the deeper the level on concentration as a mistake is much harder to come back from.

Not necessarily. A car meant for racing will at least try to handle well. They can handle poorly, but going faster doesn't have to be astronomically more difficult. If anything the trend of higher speed being linked to higher skill in reality is due in part to safety as crashing at a higher speed results in more damage.