PD's Biggest Mistake with GT Sport

[kilesa4568]

I think you are severely underestimating people’s attitudes and motivations when it comes to online racing. Whether or not you get trophies for winning, there are lots of people who don’t give a 🤬 about anyone else and will just shove people out the way to win.

Judging by the amount of comments on this forums about trophies, how far to go etc, I'd say far too many people are single minded about them. Like said above, deliberately dropping ranking to get easier races. He's an exception as he knows his was round a track but it also makes the win cheap in that they're racing people below their standard. If people don't drop a ranking but have the same mentality about winning at all costs to get that trophy, it becomes detrimental to the game.

I accept there'll always be dirty drivers but it seems that trophy almost condones it for some of them.

Just a viewpoint from the other side of the fence of trophy hunting.

 

[bmxmitch]

iRacing drivers will obviously be cleaner, not only is there heavy damage but it also costs a lot of money so people will take it more seriously.

This should be added to GTS too!
Damage models in general. GT has pretty much the weakest damage models and collision physics I've ever seen!
They seem to work like this:

And if people have to pay, because they damaged their car, they surely/hopefully will drive more carefully. The damage needs to be only added to the one causing the incident though.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Judging by the amount of comments on this forums about trophies, how far to go etc, I'd say far too many people are single minded about them. Like said above, deliberately dropping ranking to get easier races. He's an exception as he knows his was round a track but it also makes the win cheap in that they're racing people below their standard. If people don't drop a ranking but have the same mentality about winning at all costs to get that trophy, it becomes detrimental to the game.

I accept there'll always be dirty drivers but it seems that trophy almost condones it for some of them.

Just a viewpoint from the other side of the fence of trophy hunting.

I think we're on the same side of the fence about trophy hunting as I couldn't care less about them. I was just pointing out that although trophies might make it worse, there is a huge underlying issue that far too many people have a rubbish attitude when playing video games in general, not just racing games, and they couldn't care less how much of a 🤬 they're being to other people as long as they're winning.

This should be added to GTS too!
Damage models in general. GT has pretty much the weakest damage models and collision physics I've ever seen!
They seem to work like this:

And if people have to pay, because they damaged their car, they surely/hopefully will drive more carefully. The damage needs to be only added to the one causing the incident though.

I don't think heavy damage would work for GTS though as it tries to accommodate a lot more casual players who struggle to keep the car on the track and avoid other people and who would get incredibly frustrated having their races ruined by every mistake they make. Obviously that is what happens in real life, but if you want to make it fun for as many people as possible you do have to sacrifice some sim aspects. Then you also have the people that would learn to hit other people in a way that doesn't damage their car too much but wrecks the other persons which would be even worse than unfair penalties.

I think the best solution is just to spread people out more with regards to safety rating and make it harder to get a good rank. As it is right now it's too easy to get a good SR and if you're not S rank you're stuck with a lot of bad drivers.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

The harder part about GTS platinum should be the 65 poles you gotta get. Unless you're one of the fastest dudes out there it's really about how graceful matchmaking is.

That's definitely the second hardest. It's a lot easier to "game" than winning IMO - just set a laptime right after the daily races reset so there's less chance of the faster guys setting a lap. Also you can always sandbag to the lower DR races.

Sorry but you cannot blame PD for the assholes "ruining" their game because they want trophies.

No, first blame would always go to players, I agree. But the trophy is an encouraging factor for bad behaviour, and PD did not really think this through. Or Kaz did, but because he exists in his own bubble he didn't think people are ***holes enough to have win at all costs mentality.

Case in point, I raced a lot in Grid Autosport online. It's a much less popular and much less serious game than GT, but people are surprisingly good online in public lobbies. All the front row racers tend to give each other room and are pretty graceful in defeat. Of course there are crashers, but thanks to a vote system they usually get kicked out pretty quickly after the race. There's maybe 1 in 10 races where a guy just has a win at all costs mentality, but usually everyone leaves him and regroups in another room (as the game has a much smaller userbase, we all tend to regroup in the same public room). There is not a single online racing related trophy, only levelling related, and that can be boosted easily in private lobbies (much faster XP/time wise, so no incentive for trophy hunters to go in ranked races).

So dirty drivers will always be dirty, but good game design can help reduce their number and/or their continued motivation.

If its easy to manipulate the SR system, why aren't you SR-S?

I agree with your sentiment, but this whole post boils down to the fact that you're not racing with very clean drivers. So if the system is easy to manipulate, get the highest SR possible and have fewer problems with other drivers.
You won't solve the problem with the game design being heavily focused on winning, but you will have a more enjoyable online experience.

Errr...I've only done like 7 Sport races mate I'm SR A 70/100 or something on Kudos Prime. I would've been higher if I didn't get punted in every first corner in each 7 races I had competed, dropped back down the order and further became cannon fodder.

And as others have said, it's not much better in SR S anyways.

While that may be true, it is entirely possible to complete this Trophy without resorting to pushing people off the track and abandoning the fundamentals of clean racing. I know because I did it myself:

While I did have to lower my rank a few times* to get matched up with easier opponents (I was B/S before this, and am back up to B/A right now with 99 wins), I did actually race in those events and gave my opponents the respect they deserve:

I'm not saying that everybody who is going for this Trophy will do this, but it is entirely possible to both race clean and get closer to that Platinum Trophy

Congrats 👍 You got my respect for your skills and patience. I'm not debating it's impossible. It certainly is, but depending on your skill level it will either take a really long time or an extended stroke of luck. All while dealing with all the dirty drivers. Plus you also sandbagged a few times as you said (not antagonising you - I will probably end up doing this as well), so PD's ranking system doesn't really work perfectly now does it?

People.
Especially people turned loose on a system with little to no repercussions.
We all know that unsportsmanlike conduct in the real world gets you banned from competition. Sometimes a few events, sometimes a season, sometimes life.
I saw more than one kid get banned from hockey, and no one gave his parents money back... reality... deal with it.
People and... trophies... I mean really? What does it say about people/society when they think a virtual trophy means jack ****.
Give us all a flippin' break.
How many of these "trophy" hunters actually have a physical trophy that they earned through true competition (not participation trophies) ?
If you expect people/society, whom place any value on a virtual trophy, to act in an honorable manner that reflects real life within a game... I think that puts you into a class of people know as delusional.

Yep, agree with what you said, especially the bolded parts. Again this is a problem with Kaz consistently being in his own world and failing to see what the average gamer is like. A lot of things in GT world might seem to work well in theory, but real people in the real world, you just have to think of the lowest common denominator. And people will abuse the system if it's the easiest way. That's just human nature.



If anyone needs help spreading (or even learning for themselves) good racecraft and race etiquette, here are some good YT channels that I use as reference:

Tidgney's GT Academy Series
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbG5l8Fs0KObTWWbqza6Ph9QLlA4s15GY

Empty Box's Sim Racing 101




Safe is Fast - more towards real world motorsports, but equally applicable in sims
https://www.youtube.com/user/SAFEisFAST/videos

 

[PJTierney]

It certainly is, but depending on your skill level it will either take a really long time or an extended stroke of luck.

It will, and not everyone is going to be capable of winning 1 race in Gran Turismo Sport, let alone 100. I have around 20 years of virtual racing experience (and usually reside in the Top 1% of Forza player rankings) but even so Gran Turismo Sport has some seriously talented competitors online which means that there are no "easy wins" above DR/B.

Plus you also sandbagged a few times as you said (not antagonising you - I will probably end up doing this as well), so PD's ranking system doesn't really work perfectly now does it?

Most ranking systems assume that a person is "playing to win" at all times, and when a person purposefully "plays to lose" it can't really account for that.

I think the DR system in Gran Turismo Sport does a good job, however since Matchmaking is heavily weighted towards SR (which can go up and down rather easily) it's easier to get mismatched.

 

[NoFinClue]

Also you can always sandbag to the lower DR races.

 

[Scaff]

I don't know about you but I went on scapes for the first time today and the amount of detail they've put into that.... they should've just reduced that (sacked it off completely imo) and spent more of that time/space on sport mode

Assuming that the people working on scapes and the photomode have the same skill set required to expand the Sport area, they likely don't so the cost of one to the other in terms of resource is likely to be low.

In regard to the OP's point, yes trophy's are a factor (personally I have all notifications switched off, but for many its the reason to play), however the poor state of the penalty system is in my view a much bigger issue.

 

[Sander 001]

Yeah that Schumacher trophy is a mistake. It should be changed to ‘Drive a Total of 500 Clean Races’

 

[kilesa4568]

I think we're on the same side of the fence about trophy hunting as I couldn't care less about them. I was just pointing out that although trophies might make it worse, there is a huge underlying issue that far too many people have a rubbish attitude when playing video games in general, not just racing games, and they couldn't care less how much of a 🤬 they're being to other people as long as they're winning.

I've got around 8000-9000 quick matches under my belt. I've seen dirty.

All going well, it'll settle down in the next few months as they get the blasted thing ticked off their list and leave us die hard's to have our fun.

 

[PJTierney]

Yeah that Schumacher trophy is a mistake. It should be changed to ‘Drive a Total of 500 Clean Races’

This can also be "gamed" by simply hanging around at the back of the field and avoiding everyone.

The number of people that "hunt" Trophies is comparatively low. It is estimated that over 90% of players have done less than 10 Sport Mode races to begin with, and over 50% of players have done under 20% of the Campaign.

While Sport Mode and its players aren't perfect, pinning the blame on a Trophy "forcing people to abandon sportsmanship" is a bit of a overexaggeration.

 

[Robben]

This can also be "gamed" by simply hanging around at the back of the field and avoiding everyone.

Two reasons why this is fine:
1. you aren't harming anyone else (by design, you cannot ruin other people's races)
2. you sacrifice masses of DR

 

[baldgye]

Errr...I've only done like 7 Sport races mate

Which takes any remaining validity this thread had, away.
I'm SR-S and have been for the majority of my races, most of which have been pretty good. You get the odd mistake and error in judgement but nothing too bad.

 

[Crazy Taylor]

While that may be true, it is entirely possible to complete this Trophy without resorting to pushing people off the track and abandoning the fundamentals of clean racing. I know because I did it myself:



While I did have to lower my rank a few times* to get matched up with easier opponents (I was B/S before this, and am back up to B/A right now with 99 wins), I did actually race in those events and gave my opponents the respect they deserve:



I'm not saying that everybody who is going for this Trophy will do this, but it is entirely possible to both race clean and get closer to that Platinum Trophy




To quote something I posted elsewhere:



*This can be done in an entirely "safe" manner by quitting out of races early. It's possible to drop DR/SR without upsetting other players on-track.

At this rate I will be dead before I earn it being a mortally satisfying 8 wins

 

[banckzy]

didnt even know this 90 race trophy existed tbh... don't think I'll ever get to 90 wins in current class

 

[cjr3559]

Yeah that Schumacher trophy is a mistake. It should be changed to ‘Drive a Total of 500 Clean Races’

I hit ‘like’ on this post, but this would ultimately result in sandbagging. Should be more like 5000 clean races.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I had this exact same rant and was told I was just a hater

....
I'd rather they didn't nerf their ratings to join the bad drivers for easy wins in any manner. Its already hard enough in the lower tiers.

I would counter that by saying in the lower tiers, you are more in control of your outcome. If you get your lines right, you can do a good lap and start high. Your chances of winning are good.

In the higher tiers, you're matched with people who are all fast and you have to prey upon the mistakes of others. You do your absolute best, get to 1 second of a top 10 time, and you start mid pack.

I hit ‘like’ on this post, but this would ultimately result in sandbagging. Should be more like 5000 clean races.

I still haven't gotten past 5 clean races. There have been races where I swear nothing went wrong and no one was touched and I still didn't get the bonus.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Assigning responsibility to PD for bad online behaviour through the trophy system is like blaming Youtube for internet trolls because they allow comments on videos. The behaviour exists because trolls enjoy being trolls and the only way you stop them from trolling is the same way Youtubers stop people from trolling their videos. You put up a barrier that prevents them from doing it. I suspect it happens so rarely on YT because the comment drama drives views which drives revenue. It's no different in gaming. Trolls buy games too.

This is the job of the driver rating system. It needs to be more robust or risk pushing people away from online racing altogether. It's great at the top as many have already stated but online racing in GT5 and GT6 was always great at the top without the rating system. I ran in many lobbies with top drivers and so long as you started near the front you usually had a good clean race with good, voluntary, self-policing sportsmanship. It was the middle and back of the pack that was always more risky and deliberately toxic. It's that way in every game.

 

[banckzy]

I had this exact same rant and was told I was just a hater



I would counter that by saying in the lower tiers, you are more in control of your outcome. If you get your lines right, you can do a good lap and start high. Your chances of winning are good.

In the higher tiers, you're matched with people who are all fast and you have to prey upon the mistakes of others. You do your absolute best, get to 1 second of a top 10 time, and you start mid pack.

exactly my point. at this moment I'm admittedly not really good enough to win A/S races however good enough to compete. at SR 98/99 I seem to get matched with a few S/S drivers....therefore I'm simply chasing a dream.

 

[Odyofil]

GTS is still for kids , and they play like a MOBA game. I stopped playing online gts long time ago and just enjoy offline.

I wrote that in 1 months ago, and this forum almost executed me. This game is a kid game. Nerd game, no life-r game.

 

[kilesa4568]

This can also be "gamed" by simply hanging around at the back of the field and avoiding everyone.

The number of people that "hunt" Trophies is comparatively low. It is estimated that over 90% of players have done less than 10 Sport Mode races to begin with, and over 50% of players have done under 20% of the Campaign.

While Sport Mode and its players aren't perfect, pinning the blame on a Trophy "forcing people to abandon sportsmanship" is a bit of a overexaggeration.

Percentages can hide the fact that there's over 200,000 players who've done more than 20 races. 6% doesn't sound a lot but in this context it is.

I'm not saying trophy hunters are the reason for all bad driving. That is naive. They're bound to be an ingredient though. Either directly or indirectly.

I wrote that in 1 months ago, and this forum almost executed me. This game is a kid game.

I guess it depends on your attitude to it. Play it as an adult, it becomes an adults game?

 

[NoFinClue]

I would counter that by saying in the lower tiers, you are more in control of your outcome. If you get your lines right, you can do a good lap and start high. Your chances of winning are good.

Sshh, you are just going to encourage more of them to the lower levels ...

If you get a good qualifier and if you survive the 50/50 chance of not being smashed in the derriere and off the track, you do have a chance to have a good race. However, with higher numbers of people from higher tiers, invading the lower ranks like cane toads, the chances reduce significantly. If you are not in the top 3 or 4, your chances of a good clean race are low to laughable.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Their biggest mistake is that dirty driving is rewarded:

SR is too easy to gain, a couple bumps per race won't change your rating, plus a light tap that can still destroy someone's race goes undetected.
Track limits are very loose, encouraging diving to the inside, cutting the corner to overtake.
Penalties you do get mean nothing, the vast majority of red dots in the result screen are not a deterrent.
If you do get your SR lowered, you get easier matchmaking. Max SR is not the place to win races.
Rage quitting or ruining the race and getting last is rewarded with lower DR thus easier to win future races.
The paltry money/xp rewards are the same at E/E as S/S, getting a dirty first at D/B is 5 times the prize money as a clean hard fought 10th place at A/S. DR only matter for FIA races to get more useless points (unless you're top 24 material)
Do good, race at your pace at max SR and you will end up as grid filler at the back of the pack for left over S/S and A/S drivers.

It's a miracle the system works as well as it does the way it is set up.

Currently I'm in A/S and the racing is pretty good, also pretty uneventful now. I get placed at the back of the pack, pick up a few positions from accidents, maybe get to make one pass yet it's mostly driving in a train for 3 laps. The top of the pack is occupied by one or more top 10 players which are still 2 to 3 sec faster than me, can't catch em. I get pretty much the same people every race, pretty much same out come every race. Perhaps time to lower SR again to see some other people and get a chance to start higher up in the grid instead of 10th to 16th.

 

[Robben]

SR is too easy to gain, a couple bumps per race won't change your rating, plus a light tap that can still destroy someone's race goes undetected.
.

Not in my experience. I'm stuck in SR/B, trying to maintain my DR whilst trying consciously to improve SR I'm finding nearly impossible. One minor contact per race and I get either red or neutral at the end.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Not in my experience. I'm stuck in SR/B, trying to maintain my DR whilst trying consciously to improve SR I'm finding nearly impossible. One minor contact per race and I get either red or neutral at the end.

Do the daily C races. Those can net you up to 13 SR points per race, while the short ones are usually capped at 3 or 4. Staying on track in the daily C is enough to shoot up in SR.

 

[Robben]

Do the daily C races. Those can net you up to 13 SR points per race, while the short ones are usually capped at 3 or 4. Staying on track in the daily C is enough to shoot up in SR.

Yeah, I know (and have done that before) but you sacrifice DR. I went up to SR A (then S briefly) but DR went down to C. I started to "try" again and DR went up massively, but SR dropped back to B. And I can say genuinely that I am trying to be fair and clean in every race.

You can see my trade off on the graph...

 

[cleanLX]

Two reasons why this is fine:
1. you aren't harming anyone else (by design, you cannot ruin other people's races)
2. you sacrifice masses of DR

You are learning nothing doing this, but then going into an actual Sr.S race when your skill set is far below that, and, thinking, oh it's going to be clean, but have no idea how to actually race clean... and now you are the one creating chaos just because you think all of a sudden now there will be no contact whatsoever...... knowing that the racers around you are clean is one thing, knowing how to be clean yourself is something entirely different.
I see this time and time again in Sr.S races, people doing things that you cannot believe and Sr.S racer would do... Guessing it's the Sr.farmers.
Artificial SR.

Yeah, I know (and have done that before) but you sacrifice DR. I went up to SR A (then S briefly) but DR went down to C. I started to "try" again and DR went up massively, but SR dropped back to B. And I can say genuinely that I am trying to be fair and clean in every race.

Point in case... got to S artificially, then created chaos and shot back down to B.
People need to quite "gaming" and actually earn their skills legitimately.

Nothing against @Robben, I recall very well racing at Sr.E-B... it's frustrating.
Forget about "winning", work on racing clean while not giving up spots, it'll come, and so too will your race craft.

 

[Robben]

Point in case... got to S artificially, then created chaos and shot back down to B..

Created chaos? If you mean the drop to D, that was an ill-advised 10 lapper on Monza on Friday which was just pure carnage.

Forget about "winning", work on racing clean while not giving up spots, it'll come, and so too will your race craft.

This is what I'm doing... as you can see, I'm hovering around mid B. Starting anywhere but P1-3 you get stuck in a melee, a couple of incoming bumps or rubs and you get neutral or red.

 

[cleanLX]

@Robben , drawing conclusions I guess, sorry... just seemed a good example of my previous post.
I've not started up front in quite some time, but recall the mess of the 1st corner well... all I used to do was position myself out of the way(while still trying to carry speed) let a spot or 2 go if need be (usually those folks go off track shortly after turn 1 anyways) and then try and race it back. Was not great for Dr but Sr was my goal.
I have received my fair share of orange and red... in the longer races, when you buckle down you can work them off.
"I" am having way more fun racing clean for mid pack than I ever did getting bumped around upfront.

 

[Nuschel01]

I ran lots and lots of online races on the Nordschleife in GT6 with various cars, PP classes and people and almost never had any issues with them being dirty or unfair. The GT3 races on sunday were pure cancer even tho I started from P1 all the time by the time the pack entered the Nordschleife I lost a minimum of 5 posiotions due to divebombers and rammers who were then in my way as they were slow af. And overtaking on the NOS is almost impossible and when you manage to do so you get rammed off in the next corner.
The game needs to improve it‘s SR rating algorhytm and give us the ability to either upvote fair drivers or to report bad ones where you can then send in the replay of the incident; but this would need too many people to look into and create a very diverse range of judgement. So it won‘t ever happen unfortunately.

Regarding the trophies, I plan to play this game in the next few years and thereby know I might sooner or later earn all of them so why push for unfair wins?
I do enjoy the hunt for trophies and have to admit I occasionally farm them or specifically go after them (GTA Vice City 6h Sparrow autoshoot)...

 

[Robben]

@Robben , drawing conclusions I guess, sorry... just seemed a good example of my previous post..

Yeah, that was Monza on Friday. Really wish I'd never entered it

@Robben
I've not started up front in quite some time, but recall the mess of the 1st corner well... all I used to do was position myself out of the way(while still trying to carry speed) let a spot or 2 go if need be (usually those folks go off track shortly after turn 1 anyways) and then try and race it back. Was not great for Dr but Sr was my goal.
I have received my fair share of orange and red... in the longer races, when you buckle down you can work them off.
"I" am having way more fun racing clean for mid pack than I ever did getting bumped around upfront.

I agree on that, holding or gaining a couple of positions is where I get my enjoyment. I get so frustrated by losing SR through no fault of my own though. Fortunately I have learnt to channel that frustration rather than taking it out on the competitors (like I used to).

I suppose I just need to continue slowly and steadily as I am.