Penalty bug needs to be fixed

[Voodoovaj]

I'm thinking we should have a post that shows definite bugs in the system so that (hopefully) they can be seen and addressed. I'm an advocate for a better solution for detecting blame, but I'll be please with some fixes at the very least.

Here is the first. Inconsistent penalty reporting.

I've been caught out before by getting to the end of a race and seeing an offending driver receive no penalty, then watching a replay, I see a penalty dished out. I figured it was just my bad memory, but I have caught it on video. In the video, you see the following driver make a pass. Despite giving him TONS of room, to the point of having no room left for myself, he still feels the need to brush up against me to make the pass. Impolite I'd say, but a fair pass IMHO. Still, I get a penalty. In the video (pause it at the 15 second mark) you can see that the other driver also gets a penalty. However, when you go to the end for the "Official Results" you see that same driver has no red dot. He received no penalty for the contact even though I was told he did.



The server is not reconciling penalties properly. If the system is doling out penalties to one client and informing that client that penalties are being handed out to others, it NEEDS to make sure that the other client gets the same information. If my client is mistaken, then my penalty should be wiped out. If the other client received no penalty, then I should not either.

This race would may have played out differently if that other driver actually received the penalty that was due to him. Aside from the lopsided effect this has on players, a driver who does something wrong, but fails to be penalized, now believes his wrong act is permissible and will do it again. Indeed, since we don;t know the exact nature of the bug, that wrong act may indeed be permissible or even an exploit.

Imagine if this bug becomes consistent enough for an exploit. A slight brush and you get a 1 second lead on the other car. That can't be allowed to stick around. I will say though, this is strength to my argument that penalties persist with no run off. That way, the server con properly (hopefully) better reconcile the penalty information between the clients and the server.

THIS IS NOT A PENALTY COMPLAINTS THREAD! This is penalty (specific) bug thread. Only post videos of the penalty system gone wrong as I have. Penalties for no contact or inconsistencies in information, something similar to this so it can be taken care of before it becomes an exploit.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

That happened to me as well. On Mount Panorama a laggy car in front of me stalled, I evaded yet my game still played the hit sound even though neither of us seemed affected, it showed SR down for me and 1 sec penalty for both. At the end he had no penalty and probably was never hit on his screen.

I don't think the server handles the penalties, it's the client that does it. When there is lag involved things happen differently on each client and when it tells you the other received a penalty it's just the other car on your client, not necessarily the other car on the other client. I guess both clients report their interpretation to the server and the server only keeps what happened to your car and discards what your client thinks happened to the other car.

The real bug is how poorly the game handles lag. To use this video again (already posted in bug report thread)

I never hit him on my screen, didn't get a penalty for it. Yet I sure hit him on his screen, then he hit me on my screen after getting pinballed.

 

[vvise]

Hmmm. Are you sure he didn't serve it? It was only 1s after all... maybe he wasn't full throttle on a couple of those corner exits?

Edit: wait i see your point about the red dot, although I thought maybe red dot was only for corner cutting penalties?

 

[Voodoovaj]

Edit: wait i see your point about the red dot, although I thought maybe red dot was only for corner cutting penalties?

Red dot is penalties. It doesn't matter what type.

I don't think the server handles the penalties, it's the client that does it. When there is lag involved things happen differently on each client and when it tells you the other received a penalty it's just the other car on your client, not necessarily the other car on the other client. I guess both clients report their interpretation to the server and the server only keeps what happened to your car and discards what your client thinks happened to the other car.

You may be correct, but that's a really bad way of doing it. The server really needs to be in charge of penalties. The server is the master point of reference for car location, which is why lag is so distinctive. Your client is seeing the car go in one direction, and then the server corrects it. If the server is not the intermediary for all penalties, then I can't imagine how the system works properly at all.

 

[Alfabob46]

I'm thinking we should have a post that shows definite bugs in the system so that (hopefully) they can be seen and addressed. I'm an advocate for a better solution for detecting blame, but I'll be please with some fixes at the very least.

Here is the first. Inconsistent penalty reporting.

I've been caught out before by getting to the end of a race and seeing an offending driver receive no penalty, then watching a replay, I see a penalty dished out. I figured it was just my bad memory, but I have caught it on video. In the video, you see the following driver make a pass. Despite giving him TONS of room, to the point of having no room left for myself, he still feels the need to brush up against me to make the pass. Impolite I'd say, but a fair pass IMHO. Still, I get a penalty. In the video (pause it at the 15 second mark) you can see that the other driver also gets a penalty. However, when you go to the end for the "Official Results" you see that same driver has no red dot. He received no penalty for the contact even though I was told he did.



The server is not reconciling penalties properly. If the system is doling out penalties to one client and informing that client that penalties are being handed out to others, it NEEDS to make sure that the other client gets the same information. If my client is mistaken, then my penalty should be wiped out. If the other client received no penalty, then I should not either.

This race would may have played out differently if that other driver actually received the penalty that was due to him. Aside from the lopsided effect this has on players, a driver who does something wrong, but fails to be penalized, now believes his wrong act is permissible and will do it again. Indeed, since we don;t know the exact nature of the bug, that wrong act may indeed be permissible or even an exploit.

Imagine if this bug becomes consistent enough for an exploit. A slight brush and you get a 1 second lead on the other car. That can't be allowed to stick around. I will say though, this is strength to my argument that penalties persist with no run off. That way, the server con properly (hopefully) better reconcile the penalty information between the clients and the server.

THIS IS NOT A PENALTY COMPLAINTS THREAD! This is penalty (specific) bug thread. Only post videos of the penalty system gone wrong as I have. Penalties for no contact or inconsistencies in information, something similar to this so it can be taken care of before it becomes an exploit.

Could it be that at the point that he touched you you had a very slight steering angle towards him and it decided that you turned into him instead of the reality of him touching you? But I can't explain the point about him not getting the red dot after showing you he had a penalty

 

[Voodoovaj]

Could it be that at the point that he touched you you had a very slight steering angle towards him and it decided that you turned into him instead of the reality of him touching you? But I can't explain the point about him not getting the red dot after showing you he had a penalty

Like I said in the original post, I don't care whether I should or should not have received the penalty. He was had a 1 second penalty according to my game, but he had not penalty at the end and, just like me, he did not slow down to scrub off the penalty either.

He should have had a 1 second penalty remaining. Instead, he had nothing. That's a bug.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Red dot is penalties. It doesn't matter what type.

You may be correct, but that's a really bad way of doing it. The server really needs to be in charge of penalties. The server is the master point of reference for car location, which is why lag is so distinctive. Your client is seeing the car go in one direction, and then the server corrects it. If the server is not the intermediary for all penalties, then I can't imagine how the system works properly at all.

Yet should it? You can only be responsible for reacting to the info you have on your screen. The game needs to improve how it handles delayed update info from other cars, yet deciding what you hit has to be done with the information available to you at the time. Otherwise the server might decide you earned a penalty for something that never happened on your side.

It's not fair either way. Driving close behind someone when you have a red connection often means punting the other car out of the way as the input of you braking will arrive too late at the other person, which means the version of your laggy car on his client will bump into him before correcting. Should the laggy connection be penalized for this? Or should the game delay actual hit information until the path of both cars has been confirmed. (Which is a hard thing to do as then it has to retro actively update the collision that did happen to resolve two cars now occupying the same space)

It looks like the game already has some sort of protection against lag. If you look at the next clip, I don't get hit when the laggy car first goes through me. Perhaps luck or he was just far enough to the side.

Yet when he materializes next to me, I do get bumped out of the way. No penalties were handed out though.

That's an extreme case, yet when it comes to near misses, or slight touches, it's only the client that can determine if you actually hit something. The server sees a third version play out with input from both clients. The server likely isn't even playing it out at all, just relaying info.

Anyway the video I posted clearly shows I was not affected by the initial collision that happened on the screen of the car I attempted to overtake. His client was working with delayed information from me and did not receive my steering input yet, hence he suddenly shot forward, his client thinking I drove into him.

Playing the game out on the server could solve some issues yet it will also make the game unresponsive. If it has to send your steering input to the server first, you have to wait for the server to report back what yours and other cars all do, which means playing with quite a bit of variable latency. No good for a racing game.

It's a difficult problem. You can't rewind time in the middle of the race to fix a collision that did or did not happen. Yet it could forgive a penalty you got for not really hitting a car. If the other client reports nothing happened on their side, it should at least undo the SR Down and time penalty on your client, even though it can't retro actively fix the collision.

There are many versions of the truth, which one is right! Damn time variable.

 

[Voodoovaj]

There are many versions of the truth, which one is right! Damn time variable.

Long story, short. Servers predict the future.

Servers should always be the master in all situations. Your client, and the server, predicts the future based on the input controls sent to it from the clients. This is why you see "laggy" cars. Your client runs the physics while the server predicts the behaviour of the opponents based on the info it has. Once the server gets the location info from the other driver, the car's location is corrected on your client. (super simplistic explanation, but it can get REALLY long)

There is already a delay between an event and the penalty display. I'm pretty sure no one is in a rush to see the penalty info, so if it takes a few extra game cycles to send the info, that's not an issue. What IS an issue is that the server is correcting opponent car locations, but it's not correcting the penalties.

Don't assume that a penalty that appears on your screen is correct. If there is contact from someone on your end, but there is no contact on their end, the system should be a "benefit of the doubt" system and err on the side of no contact. The server needs to review the info it received and correct penalties accordingly. Yet another reason why penalties should not be run off.

 

[JacksHerer]

I can't wait for cloud based driving games.. the cloud is the master and if you are lagging, you will know about it - you will be teleporting around until you find yourself in the gravel against a wall
Everyone with good connections will laugh as they watch cars veer off and go driving about off track.

At the moment, people with lag are oblivious to the horror they create for cars around them.

 

[Robben]

Is the perception or sight of a lagging car caused both ends or definitely just by the lagger? I only ask, as I've encountered a laggy car only once online in 490 races whereas others seem to get it regularly...

 

[JacksHerer]

When I've seen a laggy car in an open lobby, someone normally points out the lagging car and I relax knowing it's not just me seeing it.

I would expect the lagger is the only guy out of sync to the server which is recording accurately where the other cars are. So the lagger may think all is well, unless their download traffic is lagging as much as their upload traffic?

Two laggers meeting each other on track would be funny to see.

 

[Robben]

Fair enough. I'm just lucky then...

 

[Voodoovaj]

Is the perception or sight of a lagging car caused both ends or definitely just by the lagger? I only ask, as I've encountered a laggy car only once online in 490 races whereas others seem to get it regularly...

It can be both. Your client relies on the server to get the inputs of the other racers. When the connection isn't fast enough to send all the input information to the server and then on to your client, you see lag.

This can manifest in your game by seeing 1 laggy car (caused by that player's poor connection) or you see many laggy cars (caused by your poor connection).

Two laggers meeting each other on track would be funny to see.

You see it all the time in the open lobbies when the two cars are invisible to each other.

I can't wait for cloud based driving games.. the cloud is the master and if you are lagging, you will know about it - you will be teleporting around until you find yourself in the gravel against a wall
Everyone with good connections will laugh as they watch cars veer off and go driving about off track.

At the moment, people with lag are oblivious to the horror they create for cars around them.

It will literally never work like that. Your client will always be the one that reacts to your inputs first and corrected later.

That said, there is something like what you are describing in play already. In the open lobbies, with a bad connection, your car's handling is affected when you are lagging.

 

[StirlingMoose]

Lobbies and Sport work in different ways. Lobbies are P2P, the server only does the matching. Once the race is under way each player is sending their position data to each other player directly. Hence you get more lag problems and players not able to see each other on track. I very rarely see serious lag in Sport races.

 

[cleanLX]

@StirlingMoose ... nice avatar... I preferred it when it was bottled in brown glass... and have grown fond of the pale as the years pass... BTW, was just back home a few months ago and had a heck of a time finding "Moose red"... then noticed it's now in a creme color can/box... WTH!?

 

[StirlingMoose]

@StirlingMoose ... nice avatar... I preferred it when it was bottled in brown glass... and have grown fond of the pale as the years pass... BTW, was just back home a few months ago and had a heck of a time finding "Moose red"... then noticed it's now in a creme color can/box... WTH!?

Actually I've never tasted it. It was taken from a Facebook post from one of my friends who likes to post pictures of everything they eat and drink, and I made it my avatar as part of a joke with a Canadian friend on here. I've never seen it on sale in the UK but if I ever do I will certainly buy a few bottles.