Perfect Shifting?

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/begin rant
The manual mode of GT4 (or any other racing game) is so different from an actual manual, and SO much simpler, that I don't know why people seem to have such a hard time with it. I mean, if you can't either listen to the engine and/or watch your tach, you'll never win the harder races/licenses even in an automatic. The only car I drive in GT3 that I use the automatic in on a regular basis is a tuned Escudo with short, narrowly-spaced gear; once 1st gear gets past the lag, it blasts through 2nd, 3rd, and 4th faster than my finger could possibly hit the upshift button.
If you are serious enough about this game to ever finish it, you will learn how the powerband of an engine affects optimal gearing and shift points. You will learn when to shift, and how to shift without messing up your line. And if you are REALLY serious, you will learn how to adjust the transmission gearing so that when yuo upshift, the engine RPM will srop right into a nice, meaty portion of your engine's powerband. The math is SO simple, at least to me.
It does irk me that you can't lock an automatic down to prevent upshifts and/or force downshifts like you can IRL, but that's just the realism nit-picker in me, as does the fact that engine RPM and wheel speed are linked just as solidly in a virtual slushbox as they are in an RL manual trans. With a video slushbox, you have both more and less control than with a real one.
/end rant
 
Lethalchem
Yes. Try doing all that when hauling down from 115mph to 20mph for a sharp left hander. It can be done of course, but you're going to be slowing down much sooner (thereby getting slower laps times) then if you simply do it without double-clutching. Here's how I would change your setup:

  • Press TOE on Brake
  • Press clutch
  • shift into desired gear
  • with foot still on brake, swing heel over to blip throttle
  • release clutch
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Uh, why would you have slower lap times or have to start braking earlier because of an extra clutch push? I mean, most of your braking should be done before you heel-toe anyway.
 
Lethalchem
Yes. Try doing all that when hauling down from 115mph to 20mph for a sharp left hander. It can be done of course, but you're going to be slowing down much sooner (thereby getting slower laps times) then if you simply do it without double-clutching. Here's how I would change your setup:

  • Press TOE on Brake
  • Press clutch
  • shift into desired gear
  • with foot still on brake, swing heel over to blip throttle
  • release clutch
Click to expand...

Spot on and exactly the same way that I heel and toe; i.e. the correct way.

Those who (for some reason) believe that you need to double-clutch when heel an toeing please take a look in my gallery (button at the bottom of my post).

I have scanned a piece from the Ross Bentley book 'Speed Secrets - Professional Race Driving Techniques' .Which covers both proper braking (and why you should not use engine braking) and heel and toe changes.

You may need to print it out (A4 landscape will do the job), but it is worth it. Hopefully it will help to clear things up.
 
baaaam
its important to know the max torque and the max power.
the best shift: after the shift your rpm must be at the max torque and its not good to shift to late if the engine is a turbo.
but if the engine is a "no-turbo-engine"(don't know the english word for saugmotor) it is better to shift very late.

i'm sorry but my english is very bad. so i hope you'll understand me.
Click to expand...

No worries about languages. We do what we can. My German isn't exactly great anymore but I do what I can.
 
Swift
Uh, why would you have slower lap times or have to start braking earlier because of an extra clutch push? I mean, most of your braking should be done before you heel-toe anyway.
Click to expand...
Because the time it's taking you to clutch, put in neutral, clutch, put in gear, is time that you could spend either accellerating or decellerating. I think you're arguing out of stubborness instead of common sense. Why WOULD you double clutch? Why give yourself needless extra steps?
 
I dont understand the pt of double clutching unless revs are dropping like a B*tch. I've never done it. ANd there's no clutch in gt4, but you can press gass as you are breaking/shifting down. In LFS Healtoe and quickly shifting is really fun and required. I've never double clutched in LFS on purpose, i was wondering if anyone here has and what they thought? I've done it by accident a few times when shifting down..
 
Lethalchem
Because the time it's taking you to clutch, put in neutral, clutch, put in gear, is time that you could spend either accellerating or decellerating. I think you're arguing out of stubborness instead of common sense. Why WOULD you double clutch? Why give yourself needless extra steps?
Click to expand...

No, you don't take your foot off the brake when you double clutch, so why would you stop decelerating. Btw, you only have to pust the clutch halfway in to disengage it to put it in neutral. I can double clutch very well and quickly. To the point where some performance driving instructors have complemented me on it.

If you dont' want to do it, fine. But you don't stop slowing down when double clutching.
 
seems like the only difference is you have more time to keep revs up than healtoe. Its harder too
 
Gabkicks
seems like the only difference is you have more time to keep revs up than healtoe. Its harder too
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no, man, I'm not blipping the throtle till the second time I put down the clutch, so it does't require higher revs. infact it's lower because the throw has been shortened since I'm coming out of neutral.

But if you don't get it, fine. Let's just stop arguing cause you're not seeing it. I can heel toe both ways, but my way works for me. sheesh.
 
Lethalchem
It stops you from shoving the gear further than you need to. Damage because of this can be seen when you get in a car and it grinds while trying to get it in gear even though you're shifting correctly. Usually it occurs going from first to second (in the car's I've noticed it in).
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Worn synchromeshes. That shift always goes first because it's the hardest on the gearbox, having the biggest gap in ratio's. You can help it by using thicker gearbox oil, so what's left of the synchromesh spins up better. The only downside is a slightly stiffer shift... but that's generally worth it.

If you heel-toe you can stop it crunching, and if you do it from new, you'll get less wear on the synchro's (that's why i heel toe when driving around town).
 
Swift
no, man, I'm not blipping the throtle till the second time I put down the clutch, so it does't require higher revs. infact it's lower because the throw has been shortened since I'm coming out of neutral.

But if you don't get it, fine. Let's just stop arguing cause you're not seeing it. I can heel toe both ways, but my way works for me. sheesh.
Click to expand...

hey, i wasnt arguing, im just a bit ignorant on the subject of doubleclutching, never really tried it before. :)
 
ive always been faster with manual than auto on most tracks darts. On alot of tracks the auto will shift down a gear as you coast through a e.g long tightening corner, when its really not needed, iyt might spend a fraction of a second in a better part of the powerband but it wont make up for the shift up & down. auto does not mean no mistakes, jsut your not making them, the box is. manual has the advantage of complete control, and when your racing you want control. In real life an auto usually can affect power negatively to the tune of about 10-20kw, altohugh i dont think that is implemented in GT4. im not quite sure why autos effect power tho, anyone else have some idea?
 
You lose power because an automatic transmission is a) a lot bulkier, and b) has a lot more friction.

The end result is loss of power at the wheels.

Note: Bling wheels also effect power at the wheels. A moon disc will see better dyno results as it has a lot less drag from the lack of spokes!

You also lose acceleration because auto gearboxes generally have fewer ratios with a bigger spread. It's generally not an issue with big v8's because of their wide powerband (some accelerate faster with an auto because their manual sucks), but on smaller cars the results are a lot worse.
 
Swift
If you dont' want to do it, fine. But you don't stop slowing down when double clutching.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Me and the rest of the racing WORLD will do it my way, and you can do it yours. You still have given absolutely no reason WHY you should do it when there's no need, but no skin off my back, knock yourself out. :D
 
Lethalchem
Heel-toe shifting is a hard technique to learn. I've seen a few videos (which I wish I could find) which showed the feet of race drivers while racing, and you can see perfectly what they're doing.
Click to expand...

Lethalchem, have you had a look in the Videos and Pictures board here at GTP, a lot of Best Motoring videos have been posted and almost all the battle videos have excellent foot-cams, with some very nice footage.

Most of the drivers used by BMI are current or ex racing drivers.


GT Planet Best Motoring Thread
 
cubits
You lose power because an automatic transmission is a) a lot bulkier, and b) has a lot more friction.

The end result is loss of power at the wheels.

Note: Bling wheels also effect power at the wheels. A moon disc will see better dyno results as it has a lot less drag from the lack of spokes!

You also lose acceleration because auto gearboxes generally have fewer ratios with a bigger spread. It's generally not an issue with big v8's because of their wide powerband (some accelerate faster with an auto because their manual sucks), but on smaller cars the results are a lot worse.
Click to expand...
Force (lbs) = Wheel Torque (lb-ft) * Gear Ratio * Final Drive Ratio *24 / Tire Diamater (in)

Bling wheels don't affect power (unless the wheel weight has been changed (affects wheel torque as it counts as a drivetrain loss) or the tire (outer) diamater has been changed, decreasing Force), they affect aerodynamics (air resistance) ...

Acceleration = (Force - Air Resistance - Rolling Resistance)/Mass
 
Jmac279
Force (lbs) = Wheel Torque (lb-ft) * Gear Ratio * Final Drive Ratio *24 / Tire Diamater (in)

Bling wheels don't affect power (unless the wheel weight has been changed (affects wheel torque as it counts as a drivetrain loss) or the tire (outer) diamater has been changed, decreasing Force), they affect aerodynamics (air resistance) ...

Acceleration = (Force - Air Resistance - Rolling Resistance)/Mass
Click to expand...

That's funny, the 2 things I think of when someone says "bling wheels" are more weight and larger diameter.

Granted, you can upsize with a lighter wheel and gain performance, but I wouldn't call that "bling wheels". Also, what people don't take into account is the fat that even if you buy rims that are the same weight only 1 inch larger, you are moving the weight of the rim outwards, which means more rotational moment, which means performance loss.
 
its just so boring driving whit automatic..and automatic is slower thats a fact in real life and in gran turismos..i use even stick on my dfp.
 
I'm pretty sure it automatically sets the RPM when you downshift in GT3.

Basically heel-toe shifting.


I have a question though. Regarding shifting and power/torque band.


Does GT4 have a dynamograph tool, or some sort of visual indication of the power/torque at specific RPMs?

(Sorry, I can't wait four days to know this. I MUST KNOW IMMEDIATELY :rolleyes: )
 
I really noticed this with the ruf ctr2 you have to short shift it, if not then your straightaway times get slower because you are shifting out of the powerband.
 
If you put a car on the dyno, the wheels act like giant propellors, stirring the air. Any extra drag here resists power, and hence reduces power at the wheels, not the aerodynamic drag of the car.

Of course, spinning wheels does effect the aerodynamic drag of the car, hence why closed wheel vehicles attain higher speeds than open wheelers (see radical sr3 vs caterham top speed).

What i meant by bling wheels was heavier and larger diameter (and possibly lightning bolts for spokes). Generally they add weight, and have it further out. Spinners are the worst. I didn't say racing wheels...
 
Scaff
Lethalchem, have you had a look in the Videos and Pictures board here at GTP, a lot of Best Motoring videos have been posted and almost all the battle videos have excellent foot-cams, with some very nice footage.

Most of the drivers used by BMI are current or ex racing drivers.


GT Planet Best Motoring Thread
Click to expand...
I can't see any of those videos. What did you want me to see? If they're the ones I've seen before, it only shows what I've been saying all along.
 
Lethalchem
Exactly. Me and the rest of the racing WORLD will do it my way, and you can do it yours. You still have given absolutely no reason WHY you should do it when there's no need, but no skin off my back, knock yourself out. :D
Click to expand...

Uh....I assume then you drive a race tuned car? There's plenty of reason to do it. I can guarantee that I can do it my way as quickly as you can do it yours. But it's not about speed, There is only one reason to Heel-Toe downshift and that's to match revs to a lower gear for corner exit. So, if you're slowing down the whole time anyway, what's the difference in pumping the clutch half way, then fully? None. Now with a fully tuned race car and a throw of about 1.5 inches on the stick, I can see how it could take longer. But on every car I've driven my right hand never stops moving the shifter while I'm downhshifting.

Yes, I know that the RACING technique is faster, but in the case of daily driving, it makes little to no difference.

Thanks.

BTW: Gabkicks, sorry, didn't mean to jump down your throat. My bad
 
Lethalchem
I can't see any of those videos. What did you want me to see? If they're the ones I've seen before, it only shows what I've been saying all along.
Click to expand...

Just about any of the video links on that page contain foot-cam shots, just thought you were after some footage.

However, from what I can remember in none of them do you see ant driver double-clutching on a heel and toe downshift.
 
Swift
Uh....I assume then you drive a race tuned car? There's plenty of reason to do it. I can guarantee that I can do it my way as quickly as you can do it yours. But it's not about speed, There is only one reason to Heel-Toe downshift and that's to match revs to a lower gear for corner exit. So, if you're slowing down the whole time anyway, what's the difference in pumping the clutch half way, then fully? None. Now with a fully tuned race car and a throw of about 1.5 inches on the stick, I can see how it could take longer. But on every car I've driven my right hand never stops moving the shifter while I'm downhshifting.

Yes, I know that the RACING technique is faster, but in the case of daily driving, it makes little to no difference.

Thanks.

BTW: Gabkicks, sorry, didn't mean to jump down your throat. My bad
Click to expand...

Swift, would you be so kind as to detail the reason why you would double-clutch while heel and toe downshifting? Other that because you prefer to do it.

I have worked in training in the motor industry for over 6 years (and in the motor industry for most of my working life) and I have never come across anyone doing this. That includes more professional driving instructors, race drivers and test driver than I can remember.

I'm sorry, but I do not see any benefit in it at all. To my mind it adds additional steps to the process, that I can see no need for.

I understand fully that you prefer to do this, and I am in no way criticising your choice, I am just interested in why you feel that a need to do it this way exists.

And just to answer your question, yes I have driven race preped cars (and road cars) on a range of different tracks and proving grounds (perk of the job).
 
About shifting...

I remember my VW GOL (yes, gol, without "f"). The manual said the optimal RPM for shifting was 5650. The red line is 6150-8000.

I noticed that some cars starts to lose acceleration when too near of the red line. Just like an inverse log function, a limit equation. The accel only drops to negative when the fuel cut occurs in high rpms.

So, if GT4 is the RDS, it should match the real cars optimal point of shifting. Forget the silly NFSU style (when it reaches that red point, shift). Each car should have its ideal shift point without considering the red line, that is just there to indicate an overrotation of engine.
 
Scaff
Swift, would you be so kind as to detail the reason why you would double-clutch while heel and toe downshifting? Other that because you prefer to do it.

I have worked in training in the motor industry for over 6 years (and in the motor industry for most of my working life) and I have never come across anyone doing this. That includes more professional driving instructors, race drivers and test driver than I can remember.

I'm sorry, but I do not see any benefit in it at all. To my mind it adds additional steps to the process, that I can see no need for.

I understand fully that you prefer to do this, and I am in no way criticising your choice, I am just interested in why you feel that a need to do it this way exists.

And just to answer your question, yes I have driven race preped cars (and road cars) on a range of different tracks and proving grounds (perk of the job).
Click to expand...


Ok, well my point is that Lethalchem was saying that you lose time because you have to break earlier. I was saying that is simply not the case.

Now, as far as reasons to do it. I like the overall smoothness that I get from it. I do it that way because when I drive, especially with others in the car, I want it to be smooth. I hate jerking people around in the car.

As I previously stated, the other way makes good sense when you have an extremely short throw. But think about it, as your depressing the throttle, you let up the clutch, then putting the clutch back in as you let off the gas and downshift to desired gear. It may be an extra step, but there is no time lost that I can see. Especially since you only need to put the clutch half down to get out of gear.
 

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