Perfect Shifting?

[GTguy40990]

It's all about the powerband. I'm sure there isn't as much of a difference between a slightly short shift and a good one like in NFS. GT is realistic and there isn't much of a difference in slightly different shifts in real life.

 

[GTguy40990]

Also, you have a lot more control over a car with a manual transmission. You can have a much better race if you're good with a manual. It takes a while to get used to it.

 

[Biased turkey]

But my question still isnt answered, why is manual better than Automatic? on automatic you have no mistkaes and can fully concentarte on driving.

I noticed that in some licences tests: let's say you enter a curve in 4th gear and brake . In auto mode it downshifts to 2nd but some times it only downshift to 3rd. But in manual mode you are 100% sure to downshift to exactly the lower gear you wants.

 

[Taneras]

Another reason to take automatic transmission.

Nah just another reason to learn your car and how to drive a maunal.

I remember when my and my best friend first bought GT3. we sat down in my room, bought a Miata, and did the Sunday Cup. This was our first GT game, neither of us had played GT or GT2, so we didn't know what to expect.

He was the first to race, and when the miata tached up so high it went into 2nd without him shifting. Needless to say we quiet the race seconds later and looked for a manual option. After a few minutes of looking we found it. Manual is just more fun IMO.

If I'm driving to work in traffic on the interstate, give me an auto. But if I'm just running some twisty back roads, give me a manual any day

 

[Izanagi]

Drifting with auto in real life is scary as hell. Spesially if you have a slow car.

I'm amazed you have the guts to do that! I would never try it! Oh, by the way, incase any of you have been following the arguement in the Drifting sub-forum thread about "Proper Grammar," this is my first post in which I have used proper grammar, capitalization, and punctuation.

 

[Greyout]

Oh dear...

Just want to clarify a few things:

As already been covered, the automatic in the game does not simulate an automatic transmission. An Automatic transmission has a torque converter, and a computer controlled shift pattern. The car selects the proper gear based on speed & THROTTLE POSITION.

What this means is that an automatic transmission should not downshift for engine braking into a corner, it should shift into the highest gear, (overdrive...) until you mash the gas, and then the slush box bumps its way from gear to gear down to the proper one.

In GT, the "automatic" simply selects the proper gear based on the speed. It picks the lowest possible gear without redlining the engine, thats it. You could not drive a real car like this and expect it to last long. It would remain in first gear as you drive 30mph through your neighborhood, screaming near redline while everyone looked at you funny.

Another problem with the automatic in GT is that the speed is detirmined by how fast the car is actually traveling over the ground, not by how fast the wheels are spinning. In real life, you can spin the tires, and if you keep the gas mashed, your transmission will upshift through 2nd and 3rd, (maybe into 4th if you've got some power), even if the car is barely moving.

In fact, just for kicks, one night when I was 16, I mashed the gas in the rain in my parents Nissan Maxima to see how much wheel spin I'd get. The open-differential sent all the power to one wheel, and the helpless tire spun freely on the slick street. The speedo shot all the way up to 125 mph, upshifting through 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear. I lifted my foot, and the speedo dropped back down to 5 mph and the transmission got a bit confused and picked whatever gear was most convienient. This took place in about 20 feet.

So no, an automatic is not better. There is no automatic transmission in GT. The "shifting help" that is an option simply makes driving in GT easier if you can't manage the gears yourself, and is, in fact, for girls.

All is not for free though, and there are two distinct advantages to a manual transmission in GT over an automatic.

#1) Acceleration is better. Beleive it or not, MOST (not all) cars will give you their maximum acceleration if you take them to fuel cut, or nearly so. Even if the power drops off after redline pretty steep (most do...), the torque multiplication of the lower gear provides more force to the tires then the gear ratio of the next gear, even if shifing eariler puts you right in the middle of the peak power band.

#2) Power delivery control: You control when to upshift or downshift in a corner. Sometimes, there may be an advantage to being in one gear higher then the "automatic" might select in a corner, for the sake of traction in a high powered car.

In regards to shift times: The GT series has this terrible, terrible, shifting method in both automatics and manuals in which that when the transmission shifts, the car coasts in neutral until the RPM's drop and match the next gear exactly. This sucks, and no one drives like this, either in real life, and ESPECIALLY not in race cars.

This means that the shift time from one gear to the next is completely detirmined by how far apart the gear ratios are, and how heavy the flywheel is (how long it takes the engine to coast down).

With a manual transmission you are able to hold the gear longer, which carries it to a higher RPM.

What does this mean?

Examples:

example car:
- with the throttle closed and in neutral, the engine free spins down toward idle at 2000 RPM / per sec.

- 2nd gear is 50% the gear ratio of 1st gear, or twice as long.

- redline is 6000 RPM.

sooooo if the automatic shifts at 6000 RPM, gran turismo waits until the RPM's drop down to the proper RPM in the next gear to engage the clutch.... which would be 3000 RPM (2nd gear is twice as long...). This is exactly 1.5 seconds in this example.

now lets say the car is a manual. You hold the gear until 7000 RPM, then shift into 2nd gear. GT applies the same method, and you will not get your next gear until the engine coasts down to 3500 RPM. thats a 3500 RPM drop instead of a 3000 RPM drop, so instead of a 1.5 second shift, that shift took 1.75 seconds.

Gay.

The biggest error you will see in this is if you get a lot of wheel spin, and shift when you hit redline. Even though you may be redlining 1st gear, you are only moving at like 5mph. GT "knows" that the proper RPM at 5mph is maybe 1200RPM, so when you shift, you will coast in idle until the revs drop all the way down from fuel cut to 1200 RPM before actually engaging. In the example above, that would take over 3 seconds.

Gay.

As much as a love GT, both the manual and automatic transmission simulation is absolutely terrible, and its a sad day when you can say that NFS:U did a better job at something then GT4.

 

[Lethalchem]

It's all about the powerband. I'm sure there isn't as much of a difference between a slightly short shift and a good one like in NFS. GT is realistic and there isn't much of a difference in slightly different shifts in real life.

This is partially true. It IS all about the powerband, but different shift points make a definate impact. A manual car gives the driver greater control over the horsepower you have at your disposal. You can launch at a desired rpm for optimum accelleration, and you can shift exactly where you want depending upon the situation (slowing for a corner, shortshifting to avoid wheel spin or having to feather the gas, etc....).

This is the reason why I was hoping GT4 would include a true Dyno option where you could read the engine power and torque output to find proper shift points. I thought it might be in the Power and Speed section, but I havn't heard anyone speak of it, so I guess it's not there. There ARE cars and situations where you will want to shift before redline, or even into redline. I'll provide an example of a dyno I did on my Cobra last year:

This chart shows two lines (for those who have never read a dyno): Horsepower and Torque. The numbers on the left represent horsepower and torque, the numbers along the bottom is engine RPM in 1000's.

When using a chasis dyno like this, the numbers show how much power is getting to the ground (wheel horsepower) as opposed to the numbers you read in magazines or at the dealership (flywheel horsepower). Wheel HP will always be lower than flywheel HP, and is generally 12-18% (depending on drivertrain) parasitic loss from the flywheel (it takes HP to run the alternator, water pumps, AC, etc...).

The line that starts at 225hp@2700rpm and gradually increases as the rpm increases is my wheel horsepower when the dyno began reading it. The line that begins at 430tq@2700 and basically goes straight across (until the upper rpms) is my wheel torque number. With this chart, you can see how much horsepower and how much torque it produces at any rpm from when I floored it at 2500rpm all the way till I hit the rev limiter at 6700rpm.

This information can be used to tell several different things. It shows peak hp and tq numbers at the wheels; It can be used to help tune and diagnose problems; It can be used to tell your flywheel hp after modifications (my max hp was 445, so a formula can be used to show it's got 512hp at the flywheel. Max tq at the wheels was 467 so that equates to 537tq at the flywheel).

What this also shows, is that on MY car, I'm not gaining anything by running the car up to the rev limiter. My Torque drops off significantly (you can see the hp and tq cross each other at 5200rpm), and so does the hp to a much lesser degree. So, I'm better off shifting at 6100 than I am waiting to 6500. In an automatic car, you don't have that kind of control.

 

[Greyout]

$20 says your wrong, give me your gear ratios and final drive.

 

[Taneras]

What this also shows, is that on MY car, I'm not gaining anything by running the car up to the rev limiter. My Torque drops off significantly (you can see the hp and tq cross each other at 5200rpm), and so does the hp to a much lesser degree. So, I'm better off shifting at 6100 than I am waiting to 6500. In an automatic car, you don't have that kind of control.

Its not just about what tq or hp your pulling at high rpms, its also about how much your gonna drop in your power band when you upshift. Just an example... If you do upshift at 6,100rpm, lets just say you drop 2,100rpm. Thats 4,000rpm, givign you 350hp and just over 460tq. If you were to shift at 6,500, then you'd drop to 4,400 rpm and you'd be at 380hp and 450tq.

 

[Greyout]

Its not just about what tq or hp your pulling at high rpms, its also about how much your gonna drop in your power band when you upshift. Just an example... If you do upshift at 6,100rpm, lets just say you drop 2,100rpm. Thats 4,000rpm, givign you 350hp and just over 460tq. If you were to shift at 6,500, then you'd drop to 4,400 rpm and you'd be at 380hp and 450tq.

lol

so if you shift at 2000 RPM, does that put you at -100 RPM?

#1 - you don't drop a certain RPM amount, you drop a percentage amount.

example, 2nd gear might be twice as long as first. So if you shift at 4000 RPM in 1st gear, you'll be at 2000 RPM in 2nd gear. If you shift at 6200 RPM in 1st gear, you'll be at 3100 RPM. the first provided a 2000 RPM drop, while the other provided a 3100 RPM drop.

#2 - gearing multiplies torque. if the first gear ratio is 3.5:1, then the torque being put into the driveshaft is 3.5 times greater then the engine is producing. So, you must consider the gearing of the transmission before deciding when you should shift.

hopefully he will provide those gear ratios and I will give you an example.

 

[G.T]

Again...you can't make blanket statements like that. it is different for every car on every circuit...driving style, lap traffic, local condition (i.e. oil, debris, etc) are all factors.....

The best is to know your car inside and out and learn how to feel it with your hands, feet and butt in the seat and know how it will behave and know how to work with that and get the best out of your car. GT4 is actually pretty good about allowing you to get a "feel" for the car, much better than GT3. The physcis is alot more subtle and you can feel the car moving around alot more, especially weight shifts form braking or acceleration.

Still nothing like the real thing, granted my track experience is almost nill...but evne in my daily driving I can 'feel" the car and what it is doing very well and I would even say the hundreds and hundreds of hours of driving in GT has helped me improve that. Thus I am looking for a track car and into the SCCA and various driving schools. I want to learn how to actually drive on a track. Driving in a video game doesn't fullfill me like it used to. THough I am enjoying GT4 very very much!

Blanket statements just don't work here.

Sorry. Just trying to prove a point.

 

[Taneras]

lol

so if you shift at 2000 RPM, does that put you at -100 RPM?

#1 - you don't drop a certain RPM amount, you drop a percentage amount.

example, 2nd gear might be twice as long as first. So if you shift at 4000 RPM in 1st gear, you'll be at 2000 RPM in 2nd gear. If you shift at 6200 RPM in 1st gear, you'll be at 3100 RPM. the first provided a 2000 RPM drop, while the other provided a 3100 RPM drop.

👎

I did a close comparison of 6,100 to 6,500, so there is VERY little change in how much you'll drop in the powerband when shifting to a higher gear.

You used 4,000 and 6,200, which is over 5 times the difference in my example.

Please lets not aruge over a hundred rpm...

 

[Greyout]

my point is that the concept of how a gear works is being missed in this thread.

Now that I look at the dyno though, I really am curious about the shift points. Hopefully the gearing will be provided. I am starting to think that in this example, the torque drops off at just the right rate that it won't matter where he shifts

 

[Taneras]

my point is that the concept of how a gear works is being missed in this thread.

Now that I look at the dyno though, I really am curious about the shift points. Hopefully the gearing will be provided. I am starting to think that in this example, the torque drops off at just the right rate that it won't matter where he shifts

little off topic, doesn't hp always equal tq at 5252 or something like that? Whats the #?

 

[Greyout]

that is correct. For any given point on the graph:

HP = (TORQUE x RPM) / 5252

so

A = (B x 5252) / 5252

sometimes however, a dyno graph will be printed with different scales on the left & right, and the lines will not actually cross on the page at that point.

 

[G.T]

But still its another thing your mind is busy with, also it is just a little bit of busyness, it still makes you lose some concentrating at driving the cr constantly at the perfect lines.

I don't need to concertrate any more to know when you need to change gear because I've done it so much. It automaticly happens.

 

[Uncle Harry]

But still its another thing your mind is busy with, also it is just a little bit of busyness, it still makes you lose some concentrating at driving the cr constantly at the perfect lines.

Dont talk rubbish. It is easy to use manual and maintain concentration on correct lines and braking points. Practice some more.

 

[GT Obsession]

Automatic is for a baby. Learn to control the car and drive it at the same time.

 

[joid]

Why would you not want to drive in manual mode...it is so much more fun and realistic. Plus it just adds more to the simulation factor...the key to a great GT4 experience.

 

[theRukus]

manual is the only way!

IRL, not all cars need to rev'd til redline. my skyline (r33 gtst) starts losing power around 6500RPM and it red lines at 7.. so i shift at around 6500 - 6800rpm when driving fast.

 

[Flaanders]

In fact, just for kicks, one night when I was 16, I mashed the gas in the rain in my parents Nissan Maxima to see how much wheel spin I'd get. The open-differential sent all the power to one wheel, and the helpless tire spun freely on the slick street. The speedo shot all the way up to 125 mph, upshifting through 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear. I lifted my foot, and the speedo dropped back down to 5 mph and the transmission got a bit confused and picked whatever gear was most convienient. This took place in about 20 feet.

Thats great. When I drive my Mom's van (I'm used to driving manual) and I step on it, I never know when it will downshift, and when it does, the torque steer sends me flying to the side, which is quite scary if your not expecting it.

 

[Izanagi]

I found out that one should never mash the gas on a Toyota Highlander. Not only does the tranny get confused, especially in the wet, but also, the torque steer is absolutly insane. The car itself handles quite well for an SUV and I can outhandle a lot fo other cars, including all the "ricers" in their Civics. However, the car is literally useless in the rain if u try to push it! I feel like it will understeer in a turn if I as much as sneeze!

 

[nightkid86]

So on the old cars in GT4 do you have to double clutch due to lack of synchros as IRL? or at least does the game make it sit in Neutral before switching gears?

 

[mflintjer]

I have to admit there is a HUGE difference in driving Manual versus driving Automatic -- they are night and day!!

However, many of you out there that day the AT is not as good because of the gear shifting methods used by PD -- HOGWASH!! If you realy wnat a challenge, race a F094/s or h in AT -- and see if you can keep the gear you want in a corner? It can be done, and not by holding down the R2 button either. It is a matter of analog stick manipulation. If you simply push the analog stick up like you are sitting at a red light in neutal and revving the engine -- you will keep it in 2nd or possibly 3rd (depending on the turn) without the AT downshifting to 1st gear. It's sounds simple to do, but is actually a precision thing to do -- you have to keep feathering that throttle to keep the gear.

Example, Cote d' Azure Road Course during the F1 Challenge (my all-time favorite), in a F094/h -- only final gear modded to .2 ticks higher than stock setting. In the final turn just before pit row -- most times the car will drop to 1st gear in AT. With that simple "gas pedal tapping" will keep it in 2nd, and shoot you to the final turn before the finish line. You will actually exit out of that corner faster than the AI (if you have one in right in front of you), and sail past him to the finish line!!

Although, some have said it's based completely on this, and completely on that -- the person that stated it is based on your tires -- YOU NAILED IT!! Your car can only go as fast as the tires will grip and ALLOW you to go!! If your tires are shot, your chances of exiting the corner perfect are thusly shot! Not to say that you can't do it, but it is MUCH harder to do than with a set of green tires!!

HP is nothing without proper tranny set-up, and the best set of tires for your style of racing. If you have 1000 HP, but your tranny isn't set up correctly, you won't fly around the track. You can have a car with only 600HP smack the *** off of a car that has 700 - 800 HP.

Another prime example -- does anyone remember in GT2 -- when you raced on the test track against that mondo-powered dragster? 800 - 1000 HP, and my 700HP Jecs Skyline smacked his *** all over the track! Yes, at first he would pass me at the end of the straights, but couldn't handle the turns -- and before I knew it, I lapped him before the end of the race! He had more power -- but my tires kept me in front through the turns better, and my gearing kept up a constant speed to have more consistant times each lap!!

Back to the topic -- AT doesn't necessarily take away from the GT experience. It offers an easier way to race, for those that don't understand the mechanics of shifting! Personally, I use MT -- I too love the way it handles, and am profficient enough with it to race F1 cars on any track, and win every race. And for those of you wondering -- I laid down a 1:01:69 at Laguna Seca Raceway in a F094/h! So far, any one that has raced me, has gotten beaten!! I did it in MT -- driving AT, same track and same car set-up -- 1:02:84. I am a grip racer and can use either style of tranny!!

 

[WRX02Slowness]

If i'm not mistaken.. driving automatic in GT3 is almost as good as driving manual because for one, you can hold R2 to hold rpms past the shift point.. two, you can hit the triangle button to drop a gear (lower 1 gear) .. I think it might actually force it into neutral really quick but in my observation it will drop a gear really quick too. So you can drive it like a manual when you want and auto when you want.

I really wish PD gave manuals a huge advantage over using auto... such as limiting all automatics to 4 gears (unless the car came with a 5 spd auto stock).. they probably assume nobody would buy the game if you couldn't get 6 gears in automatic. =)

Jay

 

[animateria]

If i'm not mistaken.. driving automatic in GT3 is almost as good as driving manual because for one, you can hold R2 to hold rpms past the shift point.. two, you can hit the triangle button to drop a gear (lower 1 gear) .. I think it might actually force it into neutral really quick but in my observation it will drop a gear really quick too. So you can drive it like a manual when you want and auto when you want.

I really wish PD gave manuals a huge advantage over using auto... such as limiting all automatics to 4 gears (unless the car came with a 5 spd auto stock).. they probably assume nobody would buy the game if you couldn't get 6 gears in automatic. =)

Jay

Well... GT3 or any racing game does not come with a real automatic tranny... It is just a manual tranny automatically shifted by the computer...

And I think manual has a good enough advantage over automatic in many aspects...
1. you gain control over the car... For example, I shift a gear higher when using high power car to reduce tire spin... When I drove automatic back in the day... I had too many problems with the car spinning out... One of the reasons I gave up automatic
2. More driving experience... There is something AT misses out over MT when playing the game... Its more entertaining....
3. I dunno~ You can tell people that you use MT and they won't give you crap telling you to use it (j/k)

 

[jman86]

Ok so in real life, I've only had the chance to drive a manual car 3 times now on my sister's '91 Ford Mustaing LX rust bucket (she's 6 years older than me btw). In November she had saved enough money, got rid of the Ford, and bought herself a brand spankin new 2005 Mazda3 sedan with all the goodies such as 17" rims and leather seats complete with a manual transmission, and she won't let me drive it.

Anyway, getting back to those 3 lessons I had, I was told by her and various other people that you should never shift to the red line because its not good for the engine. Now my memory is a bit sketchy but I vaguely remember that the red line on the Ford started at 7000rpm and I was told to shift at around 3000.

So I ask you, the fine people here at GTP, to give me a definitive answer as to whether or not it is okay to shift to the red line in normal, everyday cars that are manual transmission.

I myself am a car enthusiast, I just don't know dick all about how they all work.

 

[S31Ender]

I'm amazed you have the guts to do that! I would never try it! Oh, by the way, incase any of you have been following the arguement in the Drifting sub-forum thread about "Proper Grammar," this is my first post in which I have used proper grammar, capitalization, and punctuation.

The real answer to all this would be. I'm surpised anyone is so STUPID.
REAL drifting (not just posers pulling the e-brake or gunning it in the last 3/4s of the corner and kicking the back end out) it would be stupid to run an auto. That's all you need, to have your car on the edge, delicately balancing your rate of tire spin to maintain the perfect grip level and BOOM, shift! You loose three thousand RPMs and drop of 40 hp and 20 torque.........................not smart. Trust me, drifting and autos is THE fastest way to total your car.

 

[S31Ender]

Ok so in real life, I've only had the chance to drive a manual car 3 times now on my sister's '91 Ford Mustaing LX rust bucket (she's 6 years older than me btw). In November she had saved enough money, got rid of the Ford, and bought herself a brand spankin new 2005 Mazda3 sedan with all the goodies such as 17" rims and leather seats complete with a manual transmission, and she won't let me drive it.

Anyway, getting back to those 3 lessons I had, I was told by her and various other people that you should never shift to the red line because its not good for the engine. Now my memory is a bit sketchy but I vaguely remember that the red line on the Ford started at 7000rpm and I was told to shift at around 3000.

So I ask you, the fine people here at GTP, to give me a definitive answer as to whether or not it is okay to shift to the red line in normal, everyday cars that are manual transmission.

I myself am a car enthusiast, I just don't know dick all about how they all work.

Every great once in a while is fine, but on a regular basis, it will add more wear and tear.
The general rule to treating your car for LONGETIVITY is to
A: Always start your car and let it warm up to operating temp before driving.
With fuel injection in all cars these days, you can just start the car and go, without waiting for the car to warm up. This is BAD for the car and in it's lifespan, it can mean buying a new one at 150,000 instead of 220,000............
B: Always drive your car at 60% its maximum operating capacity.
if it redlines at 8, never bring it above 5. Never floor it, especially with todays cars running more hp than before, you don't NEED to juice it to go. There is NO reason EVER to floor or almost floor a car with 140 hp. or even 130 (if it's not a van or stationwagon of course). Take it easy guys , just because the car can go 0-60 in 8 seconds doesn't mean you HAVE to. Let it take 15 or 20 seconds............. Shift slowly. Easy off the gas, clutch in, shift, easy out and easy back on.
And I lied, there's one more step
C: Keep up on the repairs and preventative maint...........This is also a biggie.

You do all these, your car will last twice as long as all your friends.....trust me, and you'll spend less money on repairs as them too.........because you won't have to repair it as much!

 

[extreme car]

Manual = more control.

Go manual driver / drifter