Performance point limitations are ridiculous

[Nauraushaun]

I'm over it. The game sets a performance point limitation for a seasonal event, and the event is ruined. Because all cars with the same performance points aren't equal. It becomes about trying to find which cars will be faster for a specific number of performance points, trying to find how the game's logic works so you can get a competitive car. And that boils down to trying out a bunch of different cars to find the best one, which is boring as hell.
It's just crazy.
At least if they used a more traditional metric, like horsepower or power-to-weight, you'd know which cars are more suited. "Performance points" is silly.

The thought of starting up the game and using trial-and-error to find a car that can win one of the recent seasonal events just makes me want to stop playing. Because my lightened 300ZX will never be able to do it.

 

[CorvetteConquer]

You can enter the races with less PP, not only challenging yourself, but earning more credits, too.

The game now takes into account your PP for seasonals and thus, your credit earnings shift according to the PP you choose.

Less PP= More credits

More PP= Less credits.

If that's ANY consolation for you.

 

[1241Penguin]

Most of the go-karts have more PP than something in the STI or Evo range, IIRC. And I'm fairly certain they aren't any quicker.

Yeah, the PP system needs to be either fixed or abolished.

 

[Tornado]

As flawed as the performance points sytem is at times:

At least if they used a more traditional metric, like horsepower or power-to-weight, you'd know which cars are more suited. "Performance points" is silly.

Those systems are far worse, and the trial and error issue you are bringing up would be there just the same for them.

 

[ZohsixGT5]

Are you referring to the seasonal time trials or seasonal events?

 

[Morgoth_666]

PP isn't perfect. Neither is HP or weight or both. Nor are any of the real-world balancing systems that get intensively scrutinized and constantly updated. There will always be better and worse cars. Some people think power/weight gets a better balance online, some think PP does.

Driver skill notwithstanding, it's usually only a handful of tracks that it is ever impossible or nearly impossible to win with a car that meets the maximum PP limit anyway. And there's also the possibility of running without the fastest, most annoying rabbit.

PP could be - no, should be - much better calculated than it is, particularly it seems for lightweight cars. But it also does work reasonably well in a lot of cases. Just the typical "halfway right / halfway WTF" we should have all come to expect from PD after the last decade or so.

Besides, this is A-Spec. It mainly only makes a difference between making a ton of money and making a slightly bigger ton of money. It's not like the act of making the money is fun. You'll just have to suffer through the event with a different car and save your favorite for having fun online or in arcade. Or buy another one and don't apply permanent modifications.

Not having PP or at least power/weight limits would be ridiculous. Having them means some cars won't fit. Imperfect limits means some cars are at a disadvantage. Life sucks.

 

[MrGrado]

PP restrictions alone come close to allowing a competitive field of cars. They could always have a PP limit for an event and, in addition, have a list of eligible cars, or have a list of restricted cars. Even then, there may be the possibility that one car will be more faster.

The 300ZX does not perform well within the current PP system because it has high torque in the low rpm range. Maybe a NA model from used car garage will perform better with a PP limit.

 

[Olegonic]

Tires grade MUST be included in PP calculation as well.

 

[Tornado]

Tires grade NUST be included in PP calculation as well.

Still never seen a reasonable explanation why, even though so many people feel so strongly about it.

 

[Exorcet]

At least if they used a more traditional metric, like horsepower or power-to-weight, you'd know which cars are more suited. "Performance points" is silly.

When PP takes into account hp, weight, aerodynamics, chassis, and possibly some other things and horsepower and power to weight ignore half or more of those things, I think not.

PP is required for close races. It allows you to pick the cars that are closest in performance. The numbers are sometimes a bit off, but they are far better than the alternatives you've suggested.

Tires grade NUST be included in PP calculation as well.

Tires aren't realistic enough for this. In GT5, they are completely separate from the rest of the car. You basically pick tires based on grip to set how much you've tuned your chassis and suspension.

 

[gtnoobie]

The pp system is way superior to hp and weight limitation or both. Imagine if PD limit Hp then some will find the lightest car and then apply weight reduction which makes the event pointless. If they limit weight, the same is done to maximize hp. If they limit both, you have almost no car that fits both requirement or you find one with max downforce which makes it pointless. In short, pp which account for weight, hp, torque curve, downforce in some subtle ways is the best limit gt5 has to offer. It is not flawless but certainly better.
The tire choice cannot be included in pp as it affects performance to differing amount between different pp. An arbitary pp change of say 50 between compounds affects
a midget and a f2007 differently in laptime/performance.

In addition, most seasonals can be won by just about any cars within pp limit. Japanese 80 Tsukuba being the exception. It is meant to challenge us as the original a spec lacks greatly in this aspect.

In short, if you find current seasonal too tough at current limits with any cars, you should be happy that pd just increase the fun factor for you.

 

[Olegonic]

Still never seen a reasonable explanation why, even though so many people feel so strongly about it.

OK, so in 400PP restriction you just downpower your 2J on Racing Slicks and race against opponents on Sport Hards. Easy win, huh?

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

OK, so in 400PP restriction you just downpower your 2J on Racing Slicks and race against opponents on Sport Hards. Easy win, huh?

+1.. Seems quite self explanatory and anyone pretending to be superior is simply wrong.

 

[DGXR]

Still never seen a reasonable explanation why, even though so many people feel so strongly about it.

OK, so in 400PP restriction you just downpower your 2J on Racing Slicks and race against opponents on Sport Hards. Easy win, huh?

If tire wear was on for every race, and the tire model were more accurate, and every race were always 5+ laps (to actually wear the tires on shorter tracks), then tire selection would not matter in the PP equation... RS=higher grip, lower durability... RH=lower grip, higher durability. Oh wait, did I just appoint myself to be Captain Obivous?

 

[PhillGuy]

If tire wear was on for every race, and the tire model were more accurate, and every race were always 5+ laps (to actually wear the tires on shorter tracks), then tire selection would not matter in the PP equation... RS=higher grip, lower durability... RH=lower grip, higher durability. Oh wait, did I just appoint myself to be Captain Obivous?

I miss racing my Maxed out Elise on RS against an equivalent Vette (a lot heavier but a lot more HP)but on RH. Taking into account the tires these cars are almost the same.

Made for interestingly close races with vastly different cars.

 

[Tornado]

OK, so in 400PP restriction you just downpower your 2J on Racing Slicks and race against opponents on Sport Hards. Easy win, huh?

I don't even understand what this statement is trying to say. You do realize that there has been an option to limit tires separately from PP for... hell, nearly a year now, right?


You saying that "Tires grade MUST be included in PP calculation" kinda requires a justification beyond coming up with a single example which would only be possible when the room host had no idea what he was doing. It has already been pointed out why including tires is not ideal (and there are more reasons as well if you really want to get into it), but it would be nice to hear why it needs to happen in the first place.

Seems quite self explanatory and anyone pretending to be superior is simply wrong.

Then either enlighten me or learn what the phrase "self-explanatory" means.

 

[Tired Tyres]

For me it doesn't have to be any more complex that a BHP limit with a specific tyre restriction and the removal of the horse power reduction facility. It is very broken.

Then everybody knows the rules and it's up to you to find a good setup to succeed.

 

[FormulaKimball]

Still never seen a reasonable explanation why, even though so many people feel so strongly about it.

It would be interesting to see if including tires in pp could be calculated with accuracy. Or at least as much accuracy as the whole game is subject to.

In my own testing around the Nordschleife the difference between Comfort Hard tires and Racing Softs in a Formula Gran Turismo is about 12 seconds a lap, which is 4% of its laptime. In a NASCAR Fusion, the difference is more like 1:58 a lap, 28% faster on RS than CH. Of course the Fusion weighs 3x as much, with nearly the same power and not that much less aero if you believe the numerical sliders. I can't remember the pp but I think the FGT is about 900 and the NASCAR around 650. I guess someone with some genius math skills can crunch this and tell us if it sounds about right or not...

 

[diptob79]

For me it doesn't have to be any more complex that a BHP limit with a specific tyre restriction and the removal of the horse power reduction facility. It is very broken.

Then everybody knows the rules and it's up to you to find a good setup to succeed.

Power restriction must be limited only 10% or 20% max. Its one of contributing factor of the broken pp system

 

[Krizzay]

Tires grade MUST be included in PP calculation as well.

It was in gt5: prologue but it was a pain in the butt to organize your cars according to pp when you switches tires. (hope this makes sense, i'm a lil drunk tonight )

 

[Tornado]

Power restriction must be limited only 10% or 20% max. Its one of contributing factor of the broken pp system

This would cease to be an issue if the host was given control of that too, and in many cases limiting a car past 20% will make it slower rather than faster.

 

[Nauraushaun]

As flawed as the performance points sytem is at times:

Those systems are far worse, and the trial and error issue you are bringing up would be there just the same for them.

But at least they're more realistic. I'm sure they get used more often in actual race events, and at least we'd know where we stand.

I can tell you a bunch of cars that will do better than others for equal power-to-weight ratios. AWD would be better, so would lightness to a degree. And we know aerodynamics aren't in the equation, so low and sleek is probably also better, as is wide tyres.
Performance points, it could be anything. Maybe AWD cars are better, but maybe the PP system over-compensates for this, and you're better of with RWD? Or maybe FF cars get a low rating, so you can get away with having more power and you're better with a quick Civic? Then again, maybe the drivetrain has nothing to do with PP, in which case AWD will always be better. Are you better off lightening your car or adding power? How does PP calculate this? You have to guess where the biases are to have a competitive car.

In the recent Cape Ring time attack, I found that I could only be competitive with the Lotus Elise. With the same PP, my 300Z was useless, and my Esprit (though better) was also useless. I'm sure I drove both better than I drove the Elise, because it was twitchy as hell and had the stock 50/50 brake bias so I couldn't brake as heard as I wanted without spinning. But the Elise, with the same PP, is a much quicker car.

It's just guess work. I mean, in theory the 300ZX could go quicker: it's got a bigger engine with a broader torque spread, and the weight adds downforce at low speeds. But who knows how PP handles those stats...

 

[Johnnypenso]

The PP system works fine but it has limitations. Once you understand it's limitations it's easier to work with. If you expect it to be perfect you'll always be disappointed.

 

[Nauraushaun]

If it's not going to be perfect, going back to a more realistic system and easy to understand system would be nice.
Power to weight

 

[SavageEvil]

I'm over it. The game sets a performance point limitation for a seasonal event, and the event is ruined. Because all cars with the same performance points aren't equal. It becomes about trying to find which cars will be faster for a specific number of performance points, trying to find how the game's logic works so you can get a competitive car. And that boils down to trying out a bunch of different cars to find the best one, which is boring as hell.
It's just crazy.
At least if they used a more traditional metric, like horsepower or power-to-weight, you'd know which cars are more suited. "Performance points" is silly.

The thought of starting up the game and using trial-and-error to find a car that can win one of the recent seasonal events just makes me want to stop playing. Because my lightened 300ZX will never be able to do it.

I was about to post and then decided to check the OP, I was about to punch myself in the face, lol.

The OP is complaining about trial and error to finding a car that can win at the PP limit in the Season Events. Wait a minute, in a game with hundreds of cars you find it a problem having to test out which car is best suited to use to win certain events? There aren't any recent events that you can use a fully lightened 300ZX '89 in, so unless you are trying to enter the 420PP Japanese 80's event there is no recent event you can enter in the Seasonal using that car. For the record the 300ZX bases PP is 440 so you wouldn't be able to enter the event to begin with and de-tuning a car that heavy wouldn't make sense and you would get trounced thoroughly.

Please let us know what event it is you are using this 300ZX for and we can all have a go at the event and see if we get the same problems. My guess is you are detuning a 440PP car to fit 420PP which is ridiculous and your car will always be outclassed by more than half the grid if you do that.

 

[Exorcet]

But at least they're more realistic. I'm sure they get used more often in actual race events, and at least we'd know where we stand.

Hp limits are more realistic? How so?

Race rules don't just throw out a number and say stay below that much power. They're documents that are pages and pages long that exist to make sure that every part of the car complies to race rules. PP is the only thing that comes remotely close to doing this in GT.

I can tell you a bunch of cars that will do better than others for equal power-to-weight ratios. AWD would be better, so would lightness to a degree. And we know aerodynamics aren't in the equation, so low and sleek is probably also better, as is wide tyres.

These would be guesses at best, especially since the specific examples sound really vague. And sure, you could guess that AWD would be better, but would you be able to tell how much better?

Performance points, it could be anything. Maybe AWD cars are better, but maybe the PP system over-compensates for this, and you're better of with RWD? Or maybe FF cars get a low rating, so you can get away with having more power and you're better with a quick Civic? Then again, maybe the drivetrain has nothing to do with PP, in which case AWD will always be better. Are you better off lightening your car or adding power? How does PP calculate this? You have to guess where the biases are to have a competitive car.

This sounds like real racing when there are rules in place.

In the recent Cape Ring time attack, I found that I could only be competitive with the Lotus Elise. With the same PP, my 300Z was useless, and my Esprit (though better) was also useless. I'm sure I drove both better than I drove the Elise, because it was twitchy as hell and had the stock 50/50 brake bias so I couldn't brake as heard as I wanted without spinning. But the Elise, with the same PP, is a much quicker car.

If the TT had been about power/weight, you'd probably very easily find a dominant car that would make 90% of other cars useless. Most likely a RM. If not that, maybe a detuned McLaren F1 since it has so much more downforce than anything. Possible one of the DCT cars as you would have more acceleration for the same power. Etc, etc.

It's just guess work. I mean, in theory the 300ZX could go quicker: it's got a bigger engine with a broader torque spread, and the weight adds downforce at low speeds. But who knows how PP handles those stats...

It's not just guesswork, you just need to experiment more and find how PP works.

I will say that PD's separation of PP and hp/weight was strange and pointless. I have no idea why they would have done that as combining them would have been much more effective than leaving them separate.












On the power limiter, it's not an issue. As Toronado said, once you go beyond 10 or 20 % below normal, you're probably hurting your car. PP and gearing automatically balance out the limiter.

 

[Adrenaline]

When the PP system was initially introduced, tires DID effect your PP. It was removed in the next update, because people were exploiting that as well. There's always a way to minimize/maximize in games, simply because that's how programming works. It doesn't matter what limitation you set on a room, there will always be a certain car, that benefits from X settings. The only difference is in the drivers willingness to find said car. On the other hand, if you just wanna drive a slow car, for the pure joy of driving it... well, then you don't get to complain about it. People who drive Pruis' don't get to complain that they doesn't keep up with Corvettes.

 

[Nauraushaun]

Please let us know what event it is you are using this 300ZX for and we can all have a go at the event and see if we get the same problems. My guess is you are detuning a 440PP car to fit 420PP which is ridiculous and your car will always be outclassed by more than half the grid if you do that.

My problem is having to use nothing other than trial and error because we don't have any real stats to compare our cars with. You can't use any sort of car knowledge to beat PP, you just have to guess because you don't know how it works.
It's the Cape Ring RWD time trial, thank you very much.

This sounds like real racing when there are rules in place.

This sounds like real racing when there are rules in place.

Yes, except that real racing is balanced. PP is hideously un-balanced, but there's no way of knowing how.
By HP/weight being more realistic, I mean it relates better to real life. PP is like a magical number which relates to the car's performance in some way. that no one quite understands.

And that would be fine, if it was balanced. But it's not.

 

[Tornado]

You keep acting as if PP is completely random. It is not. It isn't even that hard to figure out if you spend enough time with it to get a good feel for how it calculates what it calculates, and the majority of the variables that are mapped out by it are known (weight, weight distribution, base tire grip, horsepower, torque, torque curve, aerodynamic efficiency, downforce and age).



Also, using PWR would do nothing in terms of eliminating trial and error. There are no drag racing Seasonals.

 

[gtnoobie]

Yes, except that real racing is balanced. PP is hideously un-balanced, but there's no way of knowing how.
By HP/weight being more realistic, I mean it relates better to real life. PP is like a magical number which relates to the car's performance in some way. that no one quite understands.

To learn what pp means. Increase your horsepower. It increases pp. try low end turbo, higher pp but not as much max hp. decrease your weight. That increases pp. put weight ballast on and shift to and fro. A near 50:50 weight increases pp. put on window weight reduction. That increase pp more than proportion to similar weight reduction as it lowers cg. Uptune your engine and use engine limiter. That reduces max hp more than normal as pp is related more to area under hp. Play with downforce. More downforce, higher pp.
In short, if 300zx has high torque at low end, your max hp is screwed. Makes perfect sense if you can accelerate faster, your top speed is lower to even things out at same pp.
There are other subtle adjustments but show me one limitation that takes into account torque curve, weight, weight distribution, centre of gravity, front and back downforce within gt5