Performance Points Accuracy

[jblackrevo9]

I've notice that at different perfromance points, certain cars are way faster than those that are with the standrd performance points for a car.



Example:



An FOCUS RS and RX-8 at 500pp easily beats most cars on almost any track



Other cars to look at:



Ferrari Dino

Lamborghini Miura

Concept cars

Nissan Z 350



I also notice that certain FF drives (Honda civics) are faster than other FF drive regardless of how much you tune.



FWD drives seem to not have any power at all when racing at different performance points.



Cars such as the FOCUS RS easily dominates. They are much more faster than normal.



I understand physics and know the advantages and disadvantages of certain drivetrains but I find it odd that these cars can quickly gain time after losing time and pass another racer who was a ahead by 20 seconds in a race.



Are these cars suppose to behave like this in the game.



Is it possible for a RX 8 to go around Nurburgring and do a 6:40 on soft tires at 500 performance points. These cars now move much more faster now then in Granturismo 5 ( I know that the game's engine is new in Granturismo 6)





Should the performance points system be revised?



(Also there is a Weather bug on One of the Nurburgring Nordschielfe tracks that changes suddenly while racing)







I Think Polyphony should do a investigation. A secret shopper for instance and pay attention to the behaviors of the cars I have presented in my examples. They are other out there....

 

[esoxhntr]

Should the performance points system be revised?

yes.

all the cars you mentioned are rabbits at 500pp. in the rooms i frequent only 'noobs' use them. the focur rs is the ultimate noob-mobile.

 

[jblackrevo9]

yes.

all the cars you mentioned are rabbits at 500pp. in the rooms i frequent only 'noobs' use them.

I Agree....I prefer to use cars that aren't that popular to try to get them moving but for some mysterious reason, those cars (mentioned above) move extremely quick, even though the driver is terrible, they still win.


Something is off but I cant put my finger on it....

 

[esoxhntr]

the rx8 concept as an example, should probably have about 525 pp when tuned to the 'current' 500. i can run a 6.3x on nurb in that car at 500 right now.

the pp calculation is simply off.

 

[jblackrevo9]

Yes....the Focus RS should have at least 550pp points. It is able to run around the Nurb (24hour) and do a 8:19 at 500 pp.

It's almost like they just transfered the cars over into the game without actually paying attention to the behavior of the cars reacting to the new game physics engine

 

[esoxhntr]

if you remember gt5 though, we had the same issue. the hsc, nsx, m3 csl, gsxr etc. were faster than the rest.

it would be impossible to tweak the pp system to be perfect but i agree, they need to adjust it a little to bring these cars a little closer to the rest of the pack.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't think the PP system takes into account the hidden grip multiplier that all cars have or if it does, it doesn't do it well. Either that or the tradeoff in the PP system between HP and Grip isn't very effective. Some cars just have more overall grip which is why you have several seconds laptime difference between the best and worse at a given PP.

 

[jblackrevo9]

Can you inform me on what is "The hidden Grip multiplier".

 

[Johnnypenso]

Can you inform me on what is "The hidden Grip multiplier".

Every car comes programmed with an overall number for grip, it's not just a function of weight and tires. This is why for example a 92' NSX with basically the same specs as an 02' Type R is nowhere near as fast on the track at the same PP. How they take this level of grip into account in the PP system is obviously flawed, because all the best handling/cornering cars are the fastest in the game because the PP system either doesn't take that into account or doesn't do it well.

 

[esoxhntr]

it's not just grip though - the dino for instance, is not 'grippier', at least not by a wide margin, than the rest. it's just a lot faster.

the 80s datsun 240rs is another example, it's not any faster than many cars in the corners but it blows their doors off on the straights.

 

[jblackrevo9]

Every car comes programmed with an overall number for grip, it's not just a function of weight and tires. This is why for example a 92' NSX with basically the same specs as an 02' Type R is nowhere near as fast on the track at the same PP. How they take this level of grip into account in the PP system is obviously flawed, because all the best handling/cornering cars are the fastest in the game because the PP system either doesn't take that into account or doesn't do it well.

Thanks....even the Nissan Silvia (the older one) is way much faster but horrible on turns but it blows on the straights.


This seriously need to be redone so that the game is much more realistic. It's annoying trying to drive around a track correctly when some none driving maniac gets around the course tackling curves unrealistically...

 

[nickg07]

Low torque seems to impact pp. Hence the rx8 does well as does the mr2 g limited vs the mr2 turbo pp for pp.

 

[StarLight]

So reading all this, PD has made the same fault in GT6 as in GT5 ...

 

[Johnnypenso]

Low torque seems to impact pp. Hence the rx8 does well as does the mr2 g limited vs the mr2 turbo pp for pp.

I think the general conclusion has been that the area under the torque and power curves is part of the PP calculation. The bigger the area, the more PP it gets so cars with peaky power curves (less area) tend to fare better under the PP system than those with flatter power curves. Of course the more peak torque you have the more PP you get as well which is why most high torque cars are poor performers.

 

[VELOCI_2NR]

I think the general conclusion has been that the area under the torque and power curves is part of the PP calculation. The bigger the area, the more PP it gets so cars with peaky power curves (less area) tend to fare better under the PP system than those with flatter power curves. Of course the more peak torque you have the more PP you get as well which is why most high torque cars are poor performers.

I did some testing on that and it seems that only the peak power/ torque is taken into account. You can set up a car with a certain value for hp and torque with no power limiter, and then tweak the car with add-on power parts and limit it to say 60% but have the same max HP and TQ values as before and the PP will be exactly the same as long as weight and distribution has been held constant.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I did some testing on that and it seems that only the peak power/ torque is taken into account. You can set up a car with a certain value for hp and torque with no power limiter, and then tweak the car with add-on power parts and limit it to say 60% but have the same max HP and TQ values as before and the PP will be exactly the same as long as weight and distribution has been held constant.

This would be new then. In GT5, the more power limiter you used the less HP you would get relative to a car that was tuned to meet the PP specs without power limiter. A properly tuned RX-8 might have 280HP at a given weight at 450PP, but one tuned to 500PP then reduced to 450PP with the power limiter would have less than 270hp but a flatter curve.

 

[VELOCI_2NR]

This would be new then. In GT5, the more power limiter you used the less HP you would get relative to a car that was tuned to meet the PP specs without power limiter. A properly tuned RX-8 might have 280HP at a given weight at 450PP, but one tuned to 500PP then reduced to 450PP with the power limiter would have less than 270hp but a flatter curve.

Was that not just due to the fact that bolting on parts gave you BOTH more power and more torque and then bumping the limiter down would reduce the power but not necessarily the torque due to the torque being at a lower rpm than the power?

That idea works exactly the same way in GT6.

My scenario said that IF you manipulate the parts you add and power limiter you use in a way that results in the same peak power and torque figures, the PP will be the same in both instances.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Was that not just due to the fact that bolting on parts gave you BOTH more power and more torque and then bumping the limiter down would reduce the power but not necessarily the torque due to the torque being at a lower rpm than the power?

That idea works exactly the same way in GT6.

My scenario said that IF you manipulate the parts you add and power limiter you use in a way that results in the same peak power and torque figures, the PP will be the same in both instances.

Just did a quick check. Took my 500PP tuned RX-8 and power limited it down to 450PP and 244 HP.

Took the a different copy of the same RX-8 but tuned to meet 450PP (same weight) without using power limiter and I got 260 HP.

The peak torque is much higher for the reduced 500PP version of course. How do you add parts and not increase the peak torque? It goes up with every part no?

 

[nickg07]

Yea I've spent time tuning rx8s with and without superchargers and adding on different parts and it was a little weird in terms of the outcome. I hope PD can at least review the PP system as I'm convinced it's flawed.

 

[VELOCI_2NR]

Just did a quick check. Took my 500PP tuned RX-8 and power limited it down to 450PP and 244 HP.

Took the a different copy of the same RX-8 but tuned to meet 450PP (same weight) without using power limiter and I got 260 HP.

The peak torque is much higher for the reduced 500PP version of course. How do you add parts and not increase the peak torque? It goes up with every part no?

Yes every part increases the peak torque. My scenario is somewhat contrived and is just to prove a point, but you can reproduce it to see for yourself. Just take a car and install only a low or mid-range turbo, something that adds a bunch of torque but not necessarily gobs of power. Then take not of the peak numbers and PP. Take the turbo off and fiddle around with other parts and the power limiter to meet the same specs. You'll note that the PP will be the same.

One car I tested this with off the top of my head was the peugeot 205 T16 or whatever that old '80s homologated car was.


Another thing I noticed was that the PP system is weighted toward cars that are 900kg, meaning that for any specific car, you will get the best hp/kg value for a certain PP when you are as close to 900kg as possible. (This does vary slightly +/- a few kilos due to GTs rounding errors but its always really close to 900) I'm not necessarily saying that the quickest PP cars are 900kg, because there are obviously very stout handling cars that are well above that value and don't get the best power-to-weight ratio, but for EVERY car that I have come across, the best power-to-weight for the PP is as close to 900kg as you can get.

 

[nickg07]

Has anyone found a use for a low rpm turbo?

 

[NOSWaster]

Has anyone found a use for a low rpm turbo?

Praiano puts low rpm turbos in some of his tunes because they net a favorable power curve. Sometimes the low RPM turbo is only used to help boost the down-low horsepower to prevent engines from bogging down on the start. It also improves overall HP to use in conjunction with the power limiter. It makes for a very balanced car in terms of acceleration.

 

[nickg07]

Hm ive always found it to help little except for cars with a really low rpm limit - which are usually torque rich anyway.

Once am rx8 is up and running that low down torque isn't going to help because you're going to be over 5000 rpm all the time anyway.

 

[Polsixe]

I've notice that at different perfromance points, certain cars are way faster than those that are with the standrd performance points for a car.



Example:



An FOCUS RS and RX-8 at 500pp easily beats most cars on almost any track



Other cars to look at:



Ferrari Dino

Lamborghini Miura

Concept cars

Nissan Z 350



I also notice that certain FF drives (Honda civics) are faster than other FF drive regardless of how much you tune.



FWD drives seem to not have any power at all when racing at different performance points.



Cars such as the FOCUS RS easily dominates. They are much more faster than normal.



I understand physics and know the advantages and disadvantages of certain drivetrains but I find it odd that these cars can quickly gain time after losing time and pass another racer who was a ahead by 20 seconds in a race.



Are these cars suppose to behave like this in the game.



Is it possible for a RX 8 to go around Nurburgring and do a 6:40 on soft tires at 500 performance points. These cars now move much more faster now then in Granturismo 5 ( I know that the game's engine is new in Granturismo 6)





Should the performance points system be revised?



(Also there is a Weather bug on One of the Nurburgring Nordschielfe tracks that changes suddenly while racing)







I Think Polyphony should do a investigation. A secret shopper for instance and pay attention to the behaviors of the cars I have presented in my examples. They are other out there....

I don't think it was ever meant that all 500pp cars would have equivalent times to use your example. Some 500pp, and it would be the same for other pp brackets, are more equal than others. It's up to you to pick the better ones for specific tracks, you have the power of choice once you figure out why some 500pp are better than others. The Jay Leno Tank Car is a crappy 500pp racer. Can you see the differences between a hopped up Focus RS and the Tank Car? PP is not broken.

 

[johnmaxmanoy]

What about RX7? RX7 beats most cars on any track?

 

[Zenmervolt]

PP is not broken.

Maybe not broken, but certainly imperfect. While you're right that it's not supposed to be a guarantee of identical lap times for all cars, it should at least keep all cars within a close PP range reasonably competitive. That's not really happening as things are.

Still, given the number of cars and the inherently limited manner of calculating PP, I can't get too annoyed about the current system.

 

[ukmadmax]

it's not just grip though - the dino for instance, is not 'grippier', at least not by a wide margin, than the rest. it's just a lot faster.

the 80s datsun 240rs is another example, it's not any faster than many cars in the corners but it blows their doors off on the straights.

Datsun ? not in this game lol.

As for the original question of PP values, of course it's screwed, try your own test, I cant beat my own 500p Focus ghost with 550pp cars, touring cars at 550pp being the worst joke.

 

[Chris123]

Oh the PP system is quite a face. As already mentioned, you tune a Focus RS, RX-8 or a ZZII to around 550pp and watch is destroy the competition with the same PP. Same goes for the Ferrari GTO. I guess though it's pretty difficult to compile every single car in the game and make an accurate PP system where all cars are roughly equal at the same PP. Personally I'd like shuffle race's back, they were some of the most fun race's I've had despite losing most of them.

 

[rams1de]

I don't think it was ever meant that all 500pp cars would have equivalent times to use your example. Some 500pp, and it would be the same for other pp brackets, are more equal than others. It's up to you to pick the better ones for specific tracks, you have the power of choice once you figure out why some 500pp are better than others. The Jay Leno Tank Car is a crappy 500pp racer. Can you see the differences between a hopped up Focus RS and the Tank Car? PP is not broken.

It is broken. The PP system doesn't match PD's description

Every car is a different weight, and boasts different levels of engine power. As a result, every car in Gran Turismo 6 has been given a PP (Performance Points) figure, which indicates its performance level. Cars which have similar PP figures are sure to enjoy a closely fought race - even if their body sizes and displacement levels are totally different.

They had the same problem in GT5. You may remember they tried to fix it in an update and only made things worse by giving a huge advantage to cars with FR drivetrain.

 

[Sick Cylinder]

I think the PP system could benefit from being re-visited by PD. For certain types of cars it is not an accurate performance measure. I have found weight and bhp or a combination of weight, bhp and PP can sometimes be used to put together a grid of cars of equal performance, however this takes a lot of testing time and although it is possible for racing series, it is not practicable for normal online racing - conclusion PD need to update the PP system.

Personally I don't think it is a top priority so I would prefer PD to focus on delivering the promised content first.