Petition to change the rules for digitally delivered goods in the Consumer Rights Act

[mattikake]

All,

this is your chance to improve the way your world works.

I have created a petition to the government to stop digital downloads from the PSN and XBox live stores being exempt from the Distance Selling Regulations once we leave the EU. The aim is to stop tactics like those employed by Bandai Namco/SMS from exploiting these laws in order to get you to buy pre-orders and then not be allowed a refund if you think the game is not as described.

Currently the Distance Selling Regulations allow you a full refund within 14 days of purchase if you decide you do not want the product or it is not as described if it is bought remotely - purchased without the opportunity to try before you buy. I.e. you can't be expected to buy a pair of shoes online and not be able to return them if they don't fit.

This also ties in with the Consumer Rights Act:-

Under the Consumer Rights Act all products must be of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described.
The rules also include digital content in this definition. So all products - whether physical or digital - must meet the following standards:

• Satisfactory quality Goods shouldn't be faulty or damaged when you receive them. You should ask what a reasonable person would consider satisfactory for the goods in question.
• Fit for purpose The goods should be fit for the purpose they are supplied for, as well as any specific purpose you made known to the retailer before you agreed to buy the goods.
• As described The goods supplied must match any description given to you, or any models or samples shown to you at the time of purchase.

When a product is faulty or not as described, the seller must offer a fix, replacement or full refund.

Obviously regarding PC2 we all want a fix and we want to be sure a fix is going to happen. There is nothing in law that forces a developer to continue support or to fix a product after sale. It's ripe for exploitation. PC2 (and No Man's Sky) are just the start.

The problem is, publishers and developers are clearly aware software digital downloads are exempt from the Distance Selling Regulations. I believe the PSN only offers a 4 hour trial period, which is barely enough time to even download the game, much less test it. The PSN are not obligated to offer this refund time limit either, which is probably why they only give you 4 hours!

This is certainly due to the historical problem of piracy, but with subscriptions to gaming networks and digital signatures it is no longer possible to buy a game, copy it and then return it. Even if you could find a way, you wouldn't be able to use the game online. And they will always know who you are. If piracy is no longer possible the law should be changed to include software in the Distance Selling Regulations. If for no other reason than to enforce developers and publishers to make sure no-one wants to return a faulty product within the 14 day grace period. This will mean games should have to be as least passably functional at time of release.

It needs some email addresses to start the petition, then it will go live.

If successful I can start another petition to ensure support for a product is maintained until a satisfactory fix is completed. This would be an addition to the Consumer Rights Act.

Click this link to sign the petition:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/203993/sponsors/new?token=rEUqcurJ51IJ0s0Z3

My petition:

Include software digital downloads in the Distance Selling Regulations (DSR's)

Software digital downloads are exempt from the DSR's. There's a trend developing where developers are producing software which doesn't do as claimed. Customers pay for downloads in advance and cannot get a refund if the software turns out not to be as described. Devs should also release demos first.

This refers to PS4 and XBox digital download stores. Copying software (piracy) was once a problem but with subscriptions to gaming networks and digital signatures this is no longer possible, nor is it possible to use the games without these subscriptions. Some developers are now taking to "hyping" their games to promote pre-orders - to take money first and worry about problems later and there is nothing to stop the developer abandoning game support after sale. The DSR's are being exploited.

 

[Corsa]

I would like to see a thread like this involving Gran Turismo Sport specifically, but I see it's a blanket petition involving any and all digital downloads...

While I agree PC2 has some issues, I am enjoying it very much.
Also, I don't think the UK parliament cares about US citizens opinions so me signing the petition wouldn't do much.

 

[mattikake]

Yes and yes you have to be a UK citizen to sign it. I'm guessing there is a similar process for the US?

 

[Scaff]

While I agree with you in this regard, I don't agree in regard to focusing it on one specific title.

This would get a much better (and far less biased) input if it were to focus on the tactics of the industry rather than simply being what comes across as your personal grief with a single title.

As such I would suggest rewording this and posting it in the general gaming sub-forum.

 

[mattikake]

You have a sound point.

Tbf this is my only experience of ... er, exploitation of this nature. And yet I apparently should consider myself lucky! The evidence for this deliberate exploitation for PC2 is overwhelming however. So should it go to parliament they will need citations and evidence <- that is the easy part!

From what I have heard it seems that this is becoming common practice and it's really not fair. It also clearly has a detrimental effect on the quality of games, the effort put into QA and the level of support offered to fix the inevitable issues. E.g. with PC2 we are 100% at the mercy of the devs and all we have on our side is hope.

Can the mods move this and reword the title?

 

[BrandonW77]

You have a sound point.

Tbf this is my only experience of ... er, exploitation of this nature. And yet I apparently should consider myself lucky! The evidence for this deliberate exploitation for PC2 is overwhelming however.

You must have not been around during the GT6 launch. A good portion of the promised features weren't available at launch and some of them took 1-2 years to get added (yes, 2 years). Basically, the game at launch didn't come close to resembling what was advertised on the package. That was when I learned to expect broken games at launch.

From what I have heard it seems that this is becoming common practice and it's really not fair.

Very common practice, every new game I've been part of since GT5 has followed this same exact recipe of release in partially functioning form and fix the rest with updates. It's the way of the gaming world now, I got over it years ago and expect it whenever I get a new game so I'm not bothered by it in the least.

Good luck with your quest, though I wouldn't get my hopes up for it resulting in anything.

 

[mattikake]

It's the way of the gaming world now, I got over it years ago and expect it whenever I get a new game so I'm not bothered by it in the least.

Wouldn't you want it to be better?

Good luck with your quest, though I wouldn't get my hopes up for it resulting in anything.

I have to try. I wouldn't be happy with myself if I sat back and did nothing.

 

[BrandonW77]

Wouldn't you want it to be better?

Doesn't really matter what I want, it's not going to change so I chose to accept it and just get on with it to spare myself the disappointment. I approach buying new games as a "buy at your own risk" proposition, I'm fully prepared for the money I spent on it to be a complete waste and I have nobody but myself to blame if this happens. Thankfully in the case of PCars2 (on PC) I've been pleasantly surprised and already got $50 worth of entertainment out of it so anything from here out is gravy.

 

[lancia delta hf]

I can accept bugs ( to a point ), but it's the hyperbolic promoting and lies of certain titles that I can't let slide. Which is why I don't buy certain titles. Us gamers though have let publishers take more and more with each inch we gave them, it's time to stop accepting unfinished products being pushed out the door. Unless sold as early access.

 

[UKMikey]

.

Edited to say having read the original post that a lot of thought appears to have gone into this.

 

[Corsa]

.

Edited to say having read the original post that a lot of thought appears to have gone into this.

Agreed, he may be on to something and as Scaff said include all not just a single title.

It's an industry collective and seems it may only become more prevalent as things turn more online leaning.
I've just read this morning (may be old news?) that Call of Duty WW2 requires you be connected online even for the single player campaign. Why?

 

[BrandonW77]

Agreed, he may be on to something and as Scaff said include all not just a single title.

It's an industry collective and seems it may only become more prevalent as things turn more online leaning.
I've just read this morning (may be old news?) that Call of Duty WW2 requires you be connected online even for the single player campaign. Why?

Doesn't GTS also require an online connection? That's another thing I'm sure will become more common, easiest way to prevent pirating/hacking. R3E requires it and always has.

 

[VBR]

@mattikake - Signed it, & good luck mate. 👍

Also, this: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/return-video-games-that-are-not-as-advertised.363754/

 

[shoemaker]

Would love to see a debate in parliament about why Timothy, aged 13 did not get Ronaldo’s glowing boots on fifa 18 even when he took Gillingham fc to the premiership !

 

[mattikake]

Don't forget the gaming industry is now bigger business than the movie industry. The more power an industry gains the more liberties they will take.

A couple more sigs and the petition goes live.

Doesn't really matter what I want, it's not going to change so I chose to accept it and just get on with it to spare myself the disappointment. I approach buying new games as a "buy at your own risk" proposition, I'm fully prepared for the money I spent on it to be a complete waste and I have nobody but myself to blame if this happens. Thankfully in the case of PCars2 (on PC) I've been pleasantly surprised and already got $50 worth of entertainment out of it so anything from here out is gravy.

That's a sad defeatist attitude to have. I feel sorry for you.

While that is your prerogative, what about everyone else? Do you think it is morally ok to condemn everyone else to the same fate? Many don't seem to realise what power the people have when we all unite, which is why so many aim to break, distract and divide the people at every turn. When the people all rise together it is literally the most unstoppable force in the world...

 

[BrandonW77]

That's a sad defeatist attitude to have. I feel sorry for you.

I consider it a realistic attitude fashioned from years of life experience and it serves me well, no sympathy needed. A wise buddhist once told me "When you're a pessimist you're often proven to be correct, but when you're proven wrong it's a pleasant surprise".

While that is your prerogative, what about everyone else? Do you think it is morally ok to condemn everyone else to the same fate? Many don't seem to realise what power the people have when we all unite, which is why so many aim to break, distract and divide the people at every turn. When the people all rise together it is literally the most unstoppable force in the world...

I'm not condemning anyone to anything, my prerogative only applies to me. I just say chose your battles wisely, and IMO this is a battle that can't be won by the people so I don't see any point in wasting time with it (but don't let that stop you from fighting it if you so desire). There's far more serious things in this world to worry about than whether or not a $50 video game met every one of my expectations. But that's just my prerogative.

 

[mattikake]

You must be too busy signing other petitions to be posting on here then!

Update: Enough sigs already to take it to evaluation. Thanks all. Once reviewed to be acceptable for parliamentary debate by an independent body, it will go live. Apparently this takes about a week. I assume people can keep signing it in the meantime. Dunno, never tried this before!

Oh and of course, this is not the only site. It's doing the rounds on a number of other forums, YouTube and Facebook.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Speaking about U.S., but when has the U.S. government actually represented the will if its people in recent history. Most of us want a better healthcare system, equality, term limits for the house and senate, better schools, etc. You name it and we don't have a current path to improvement anywhere in our government. We simply have two parties who can only find time to dig in and fight each other. If our government cannot come together on any one of the most serious issues we are faced with, I doubt that a video game petition is going to climb anywhere near the top of their agenda.

So, why do we need government intervention when we already hold the ultimate power over the video game developers, our cash. Vote with your wallet. Don't buy the DLC and don't buy the next version of the game. That is exacly what I am doing with GT Sport. There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again. I was fooled by GT5 and all of the DLC and fooled again with GT6 and all of the DLC. No more. Neither of those games delivered to PD promises and as seen by the GT Sport thread on this forum, not much has changed at PD.

 

[BrandonW77]

There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.

This is pure gold. You, sir, win GTP for the day.

 

[05XR8]

Dunno. I worked for Verizon 15 years. If that private company, could accept fines for putting band aids on 100 year old POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) lines, I doubt these same private companies would too. They're not providing a life line service. So, wouldn't need to be held to such quality standards.

Hey, I'm all for movements of change. Thing is, making your voice heard, by keeping your money in your pocket.

A petition could be made by sending it to the developer. Signed by the gaming community. Simply: " We will not buy your product until it is completed". As an example. It will show in the sales numbers.

 

[Xiamoto]

I'm not sure I can support this petiton because I do not feel that pre-release consumers should be entitled to the same protections as post release consumers since they voluntarily assumed more risk in order to get a cheaper price or added value for a product that [technically] doesn't even exist yet.

 

[mattikake]

I'm not sure I can support this petiton because I do not feel that pre-release consumers should be entitled to the same protections as post release consumers since they voluntarily assumed more risk in order to get a cheaper price or added value for a product that [technically] doesn't even exist yet.

Interesting point. Although you can pre-order new cars before they are released. You can still return them if they are not as advertised. I think the key point is "not as advertised".

Is the full version of PC2 cheaper than the pre-order version? I haven't checked.

 

[Muxlee]

cant believe that some people voted No ....

PS personally I boycott day one releases - and read the threads watch the youtubes and ignore the reviews. For a game as poor as this one and nobody has given an honest review. I remember reading the review on here and thinking are you serious - the guy said and I paraphrase the LMP cars don't work don't worry its excellent game go buy it !!!

this game should have rating of no more than 50% max

 

[Sentry87]

I voted no simply because of the fact I can't remember buying a game so bad I felt the need to return it. I'm not an impulse buyer typically, if you do a little research you can get a little idea if you're going to like the game or not based on user reviews.

 

[mattikake]

I voted no simply because of the fact I can't remember buying a game so bad I felt the need to return it. I'm not an impulse buyer typically, if you do a little research you can get a little idea if you're going to like the game or not based on user reviews.

It's not as simple as that. When you're in leagues - of which I'm in two - they all simultaneously upgrade to PC2, so if you want to keep racing with them you have to join in. Or spend time finding another league on PC1.

I'm staggered by the number of people who voted no. If someone offers you the chance to improve your quality of life that costs you nothing and barely even costs you any time. Why wouldn't you take it? Putting computer games under the same veil of sales as everything else is only a good thing for the consumer. If there is a negative, please tell me because I can't think of one.

H. L. Mencken was right.

 

[Sentry87]

It's not as simple as that. When you're in leagues - of which I'm in two - they all simultaneously upgrade to PC2, so if you want to keep racing with them you have to join in. Or spend time finding another league on PC1.

I'm staggered by the number of people who voted no. If someone offers you the chance to improve your quality of life that costs you nothing and barely even costs you any time. Why wouldn't you take it? Putting computer games under the same veil of sales as everything else is only a good thing for the consumer. If there is a negative, please tell me because I can't think of one.

H. L. Mencken was right.

So you're forced to purchase a game because everyone you know has around you?

This has nothing to do with " quality of life". The game is more than functional at release, you just want it less buggy; be real. But my only real concern is we don't know how these regulations can affect the quality of games. What if developers are forced to dumb down features of their games or cut content in general just so they can release it under what the regulations deem as acceptable?

 

[Animera]

I voted no because the average person has no idea what quality assurance means when it comes to software.
No software development project that I've ever worked on has said, 'We'll ship when there are no defects.'
All of them have test exit criteria that state 'No critical defects'.

Also, we're not talking about potentially life saving software, where QA is much more rigorous.
Finally, I see too many 'subjective bugs'. Example, the car always spins when I drive it so there must be a bug in the physics.

 

[mattikake]

I voted no because the average person has no idea what quality assurance means when it comes to software..
No software development project that I've ever worked on has said, 'We'll ship when there are no defects.'
All of them have test exit criteria that state 'No critical defects'.

I'd say PC2 was released with fundamental defects, if not critical. There are many testing methodologies and proofing tools that have been established for decades - going back way before I did my I.T. degree. Propositional Calculus, Z Scheme, Z spec (I believe it's evolved into Z notation these days). But even simple black box and white box testing and boundary tests, really basic stuff that I'm sure you even learn at school these days. It's clearly not bothered with. There is no moral excuse.

Also, we're not talking about potentially life saving software, where QA is much more rigorous.

You've nailed it right there. If it can be done for critical systems it can be done for a game. Indeed a game is a self-contained controlled environment. Real world (real time) systems invariably have to work with something in the world that is not designed to interact with a computer. This is technically much harder because the environment is much less under your control.

If someone's life may not depend on it, why bother, huh? Computer games are sold on hype. Business/real-world/functional systems are sold on doing a job properly. In terms of design, the only differences are effort, respect, due care and... regulation.

I accept it is my problem though. In my line of work I do the best job I can and take the time and effort to make sure that happens every time. I can't stand cowboys. They make my skin crawl. The gaming industry doesn't seem to give a **** - games will sell on the hype regardless. Unless of course, consumers can protect themselves from being ripped off...

In fact I'd go as far to say the gaming industry and dropped to the levels of the movie industry. Maybe that happens with money and power. The number of turd movies these days is amazing but you may only waste £8 watching a crap movie that takes a couple of hours. Some people like me have spent £1500+ on sim rig setups and are investing hundreds of hours.

 

[Animera]

I'd say PC2 was released with fundamental defects, if not critical. There are many testing methodologies and proofing tools that have been established for decades - going back way before I did my I.T. degree. Propositional Calculus, Z Scheme, Z spec (I believe it's evolved into Z notation these days). But even simple black box and white box testing and boundary tests, really basic stuff that I'm sure you even learn at school these days. It's clearly not bothered with. There is no moral excuse.

Again, for me, this is all subjective. We have no idea what testing methodologies were or were not used during testing. We have no idea what the list of known defects was when the decision was made to ship. There are things you call 'critical defects' but others live with them quite fine.

If someone's life may not depend on it, why bother, huh?

I never said that and I don't believe that is what happened at all.
I meant that life saving software would be be more rigorously tested than a video game and so it should be. Testing can become very expensive if you try to test everything, and this goes against one of the established testing principles.

 

[amazed]

It's a shame Mary Whitehouse isn't alive, you could've got her involved.

Try Katie Hopkins or the Daily Mail, they're good for self opinionated people.

Just because you and your league have issues you want to petition the government over a video game?

Take five minutes to listen to yourself and then take a look at the world outside...