Physics: EPR vs GT4
- Thread starter JasBird
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Now that's close to RL.
Mr Deap
(Banned)
- 1,960
A new version of the same test with GT4.
The GT4 R32 test on Nurburgring made with N2
High speed physic huh?
Full of...
The GT4 R32 test on Nurburgring made with N2
High speed physic huh?
Full of...
While i was horribly dissapointed with gt4's low speed physics and id love to see its high speed physics proven wrong as well, im wondering in what way your saying gt4s high speed physics obviously are "full of... poo" Mr. Deap? (as you seemed to insinuate that video is proof somehow)? That real life drivers inputs and car attitude looked allmost exactly like gt4's, the only difference being the slightly lesser steering input, but id say thats because gt4 thankfully puts more response within the first 180 degrees or so of turning (out of 900) than a standard car does (for instance that one). Probably the most important inputs to be able to see there would be the real life drivers throttle and brake inputs, because he doesnt ever get it sideways at high speeds or come close to losing it, and thats the main situation where the (possible) major physics issues manifest themselves. The grip levels, mph speeds and steering inputs were all startlingly close. Again, i was pretty dissapointed in this cause i was hoping to see GT4 put to shame!
Incredible video by the way, perfect timing between the two and cool vid in vid editing. Nice job.
Incredible video by the way, perfect timing between the two and cool vid in vid editing. Nice job.
i can make a vid of a lap of me drifting or racing of any car from the game LFS, if u want.
I still don't know what exactly we're talking about, here, when someone says "high-speed" physics. Accurate top speeds on the Circuit de la Sarthe straight? Wow, how impressive. 
Terminal understeer when entering a 40mph corner at 140mph? Hmm, never seen that before. 
Of course, I'm being sarcastic and exaggerating here, but what exactly does someone mean when they use that term? "High-speed" could be any number of speeds.
Terminal understeer when entering a 40mph corner at 140mph? Hmm, never seen that before. Of course, I'm being sarcastic and exaggerating here, but what exactly does someone mean when they use that term? "High-speed" could be any number of speeds.
Get up to about 115 Mph
Find a fairly gentle curve.
Drive through it.
Find a tighter 115 mph curve.
Drive through it.
Do this in GT4 and Enthusia, same curve (say...Aremburg, on the Nurburgring) with the same car (say, Trueno, or Mustang GT, or Ford GT, or BMW M3 GTR) and see what happens.
That is what we mean.
Find a fairly gentle curve.
Drive through it.
Find a tighter 115 mph curve.
Drive through it.
Do this in GT4 and Enthusia, same curve (say...Aremburg, on the Nurburgring) with the same car (say, Trueno, or Mustang GT, or Ford GT, or BMW M3 GTR) and see what happens.
That is what we mean.
Since the topic at the moment seems to be high speed and low speed physics here is my take on a couple of things. I guess it's been already mentioned about GT4 always have ABS on? Atleast that's one of the big differences in GT4 and EPR that in GT4 you can easily brake into corners. In EPR you need to get most of your braking done before the corner otherwise you go straight. This was something Jeremy Clarkson also mentions when he compares GT4 to real life that in the game you can brake into corners, but not in real life. I think this is also main reason why I get better times in GT4 than EPR.
Second thing I really notice is steering respons. Apart from GT4 having a shorter wheel movement, it always responds very direct and instant no matter what speed, while in EPR the respons becomes more sluggish the higher the speed. I think that's why I love driving FWD cars in EPR because you really get a feel for it's limitaions and you feel the weight and it's all happening at the front wheels and you kinda work the front all the time. Also without putting my finger on it, I also feel EPR is too easy at high speed especially?? Maybe the slides should happen quicker??
Also I finished reading Vic Elfords excellent Porsche High Performance Driving Book, were he explains how to get oversteer in FWD car. You come in too fast in a corner and stay on the accelerator and "jab" the brake pedal with your left foot to lock up the rear wheels. Off course I had to try this and it works fine in EPR, but not in GT4, atleast not for me
It's great fun. I always only used to throttle off oversteer or just to a quick jab on the brake while letting go off the accelerator, but not getting those big oversteer like I do now 
Another thing I find a bit odd with GT4 is that on some cars you just can't get the back end out at low speed like for instance in the 350 Z, while in a few cars you can like the RX8. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 350 Z is known to be a good car to powerslide in real life??
Also I just read a test of the EVO 9 and it says that the EVO's (the EVO 8 is one of my favourite in EPR) was known for it's kinda dead feel on turn in, but once it's starts to slide it gives you all the confidence in the world, and I think they got it spot on in EPR.
Last I just wanna say I don't wanna say what's wrong or right compared to real life, but just point out some of the things I really notice a difference.
Cheers
Second thing I really notice is steering respons. Apart from GT4 having a shorter wheel movement, it always responds very direct and instant no matter what speed, while in EPR the respons becomes more sluggish the higher the speed. I think that's why I love driving FWD cars in EPR because you really get a feel for it's limitaions and you feel the weight and it's all happening at the front wheels and you kinda work the front all the time. Also without putting my finger on it, I also feel EPR is too easy at high speed especially?? Maybe the slides should happen quicker??
Also I finished reading Vic Elfords excellent Porsche High Performance Driving Book, were he explains how to get oversteer in FWD car. You come in too fast in a corner and stay on the accelerator and "jab" the brake pedal with your left foot to lock up the rear wheels. Off course I had to try this and it works fine in EPR, but not in GT4, atleast not for me
It's great fun. I always only used to throttle off oversteer or just to a quick jab on the brake while letting go off the accelerator, but not getting those big oversteer like I do now Another thing I find a bit odd with GT4 is that on some cars you just can't get the back end out at low speed like for instance in the 350 Z, while in a few cars you can like the RX8. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 350 Z is known to be a good car to powerslide in real life??
Also I just read a test of the EVO 9 and it says that the EVO's (the EVO 8 is one of my favourite in EPR) was known for it's kinda dead feel on turn in, but once it's starts to slide it gives you all the confidence in the world, and I think they got it spot on in EPR.
Last I just wanna say I don't wanna say what's wrong or right compared to real life, but just point out some of the things I really notice a difference.
Cheers
Onikaze
The Nürburgring is supposed to be scary and hard to handle at high speeds.
Onikaze
Okay, done and done: http://media.putfile.com/GT4-versus-EPR-at-Aremburg
I noticed nothing that was any different from low speed comparisons.
EPR kept me on my toes with understeer at the Flugplatz, some negative-vertical-G oversteer over the crest of the hill, and braking oversteer, but I only had to do one run for that video.
GT4 sent me understeering off-course on the first two attempts. The first one was upon reaching the crest of the hill, where a slide I had initiated "froze up" and sent me into under-oversteer (sliding in a straight line with the car slightly diagonal, as if I had just locked my brakes). I had to do my braking in the grass and entered Aremberg (the sharp right-hander at the end) sideways, but that slide was killed off by understeer.
The second was at the last sharp right-hander (Aremberg), where I made the mistake of attempting to do trail-braking in GT4 (I left the pavement, still understeering, at 60km/h :roll: ).
GT4 refused to kick the M3's tail out at all unless I tried to do so (which I did, at the Flugplatz and Aremberg).
Despite those failed attempts, I fail to see how the high-speed physics are so different in the two games, or how the flaws are any different at high and low speeds.
kylehnat
It's the opposite for me.
Bullitt73
It's the opposite for me.
Bullitt73
To do high-speed slides, there's a lot of inertia and momentum to overcome. Especially with street-legal tires, entering the slide will be relatively slow and difficult. The exit is what can screw you up -- make a mistake, and those large inertia and momentum forces will bite you.
Bullitt73...Also I finished reading Vic Elfords excellent Porsche High Performance Driving Book, were he explains how to get oversteer in FWD car. You come in too fast in a corner and stay on the accelerator and "jab" the brake pedal with your left foot to lock up the rear wheels. Off course I had to try this and it works fine in EPR, but not in GT4, atleast not for me
You're not alone. GT4 and brake-drifting don't mix.
Bullitt73
Yes, it is. It's got a 3.5L, 280hp V6 for cryin' out loud.
Wolfe2x7 I think you misunderstood me when I talk about braking into corners. I guess what I'm talking about here is if you come into a corner to fast and you need to brake fairly hard correct it. I assume you mean setting up the car for the corner by using brake, etc??
The "effect" of braking is one of my main point against GT4. Take for instance when you enter Hatzenbach at the Ring. In GT4 you can easily brake in the corners and it won't throw you off line or upset the balance of the car, compared to EPR where I find it more realistic. In EPR you feel the change of balance when braking where in GT4 it feel more like braking only reduce your speed so you can make the corner.
The "effect" of braking is one of my main point against GT4. Take for instance when you enter Hatzenbach at the Ring. In GT4 you can easily brake in the corners and it won't throw you off line or upset the balance of the car, compared to EPR where I find it more realistic. In EPR you feel the change of balance when braking where in GT4 it feel more like braking only reduce your speed so you can make the corner.
- 45
I saw a drifting video of someone drifting through the bends at the dragon range and nice as it was, I found that it seemed like it was all in slow motion, or maybe that could be an after effect of playing the whole Gran Turismo Series and the whole Toca series.
I was also wondering if GT4 had a Dragon Range circuit, would it be possible to take the corners/bends with the same degree of skill.
I suppose it may well require a step up in skill to achieve the same drifting effect from reading the posts about GT4's inadequate physics engine.
But definately not impossible as drifting in GT4 has been achieved by many including a couple of Sistren's that I know.
It maybe the lack of a decent circuit to drift comfortably and consistently in GT4. A circuit like the dragon range which also reminds me of the circuits in Forza that are so easy to accomplish a comfortable drift left me once again to repeat what I have felt before, concerning Enthusia, is that it is like a rally on tarmac.
And the debates above seem like an argument between oversteer and understeer.
I was also wondering if GT4 had a Dragon Range circuit, would it be possible to take the corners/bends with the same degree of skill.
I suppose it may well require a step up in skill to achieve the same drifting effect from reading the posts about GT4's inadequate physics engine.
But definately not impossible as drifting in GT4 has been achieved by many including a couple of Sistren's that I know.
It maybe the lack of a decent circuit to drift comfortably and consistently in GT4. A circuit like the dragon range which also reminds me of the circuits in Forza that are so easy to accomplish a comfortable drift left me once again to repeat what I have felt before, concerning Enthusia, is that it is like a rally on tarmac.
And the debates above seem like an argument between oversteer and understeer.
Bullitt73
That's a good way of explaining it. 👍
And no, I didn't just mean using the brakes to set up a drift for a corner -- I meant using the brakes to kick out the tail in any situation.
rapapampam
That one city course in GT4...which one is it, Citti di Aria? I can't remember. Anyway, the one that has the hairpins and goes up into the mountains -- that one is a little similar to a mountain road like the Dragon Range.
I don't know about the others here, but I certainly can't drift Citti di Aria. As for your theory of circuits that are comfortable to drift at -- I can comfortably drift the Nurburgring and Tsukuba (or any of the fantasy courses) in Enthusia, but not in GT4.
- 23,482
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
I think the biggest difference in GT4 and Enthusia driving physics is the ability to 'throttle steer' with Enthusia. GT4 gives you little scope to drive this way with it's dead feeling understeer and practically none-existant oversteer. If you enter a corner a little too quickly in GT4, thats it, you're going off. Do the same in Enthusia and you can usually recover by inducing a little lift-off oversteer - its messy, but it does the job.
- 7,120
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
It's was in GT4's Costa d'Amalfi, with the Alitalia Stratos Rally Car, that I definitely felt something was wrong with GT4's physics engine.
I'm an old guy, and in the old days, when a world rally ended (at least that happened in the Portuguese event), the awards cerimony was always preceded by a slalom show-off of the top drivers (many doughnuts on the menu, of course). My first ever "going to races", still a child, was back in 1975, and I'll never forget Sandro Munari's show with the Stratos in the tarmac of the Estoril's track straight. I'm not saying I could do what Munari did, even in a racing game. But the Stratos, in Costa d'Amalfi, was simply wrong.
I'm an old guy, and in the old days, when a world rally ended (at least that happened in the Portuguese event), the awards cerimony was always preceded by a slalom show-off of the top drivers (many doughnuts on the menu, of course). My first ever "going to races", still a child, was back in 1975, and I'll never forget Sandro Munari's show with the Stratos in the tarmac of the Estoril's track straight. I'm not saying I could do what Munari did, even in a racing game. But the Stratos, in Costa d'Amalfi, was simply wrong.
- 23,482
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
There's really very little difference in the way FWD, 4WD and RWD cars handle in GT4, Enthusia manages to differentiate much better.
TheCracker
Nuh-uh! GT4 differentiates! FWD cars understeer because the front wheels spin under power, AWD/4WD cars understeer because the front wheels spin under power and the rear wheels push the car towards the outside of the corner, and RWD cars understeer because the rear wheels push the car towards the outside of the corner! Jeez, don't you know anything?
</sarcasm>
- 61
Okay here's a different reason to like Enthusia... 
My mom just dropped into town for a visit and she had never seen my DFP wheel before. So I forced her to sit down and drive one lap of Nurburgring in GT4 and then again in Enthusia. We started with GT4 (because I have been working on DM34 recently), and she had a hellish time controlling the car--even on a straightaway!
Basically, as you know, GT4 has incredibly twitchy steering where it seems like 90% of the motion happens within about a quarter-turn of the wheel. She would overcorrect too hard each time she turned and eventually go from driving straight to hitting a wall after 3 or 4 oscillations.
So I then decided we should boot up Enthusia instead and have her try that (thanks for being patient, Mom!). She immediately did much better and actually had quite a bit of fun that time around. In her words, it was "much more like steering a real car". I'm not saying she went around fast or anything *cough*60mph*cough* but she mostly stayed on course in Enthusia.
Yup, so Enthusia is now Mom-approved! 👍
(And I guess the upshot of the story is that to someone who has never ever played a driving game in their life, Enthusia at least steers more like a real car.)
My mom just dropped into town for a visit and she had never seen my DFP wheel before. So I forced her to sit down and drive one lap of Nurburgring in GT4 and then again in Enthusia. We started with GT4 (because I have been working on DM34 recently), and she had a hellish time controlling the car--even on a straightaway!
Basically, as you know, GT4 has incredibly twitchy steering where it seems like 90% of the motion happens within about a quarter-turn of the wheel. She would overcorrect too hard each time she turned and eventually go from driving straight to hitting a wall after 3 or 4 oscillations.
So I then decided we should boot up Enthusia instead and have her try that (thanks for being patient, Mom!). She immediately did much better and actually had quite a bit of fun that time around. In her words, it was "much more like steering a real car". I'm not saying she went around fast or anything *cough*60mph*cough* but she mostly stayed on course in Enthusia.
Yup, so Enthusia is now Mom-approved! 👍
(And I guess the upshot of the story is that to someone who has never ever played a driving game in their life, Enthusia at least steers more like a real car.)
- 281
Wolfe2x7That's a good way of explaining it. 👍
And no, I didn't just mean using the brakes to set up a drift for a corner -- I meant using the brakes to kick out the tail in any situation.
That one city course in GT4...which one is it, Citti di Aria? I can't remember. Anyway, the one that has the hairpins and goes up into the mountains -- that one is a little similar to a mountain road like the Dragon Range.
I don't know about the others here, but I certainly can't drift Citti di Aria. As for your theory of circuits that are comfortable to drift at -- I can comfortably drift the Nurburgring and Tsukuba (or any of the fantasy courses) in Enthusia, but not in GT4.
my favorite track is costa di amalfi reverse with the 240sx s14... its so easy to drift there and as for citta di aria it mostly high speed and when its not its narrow so if you DID drift there it would be very low speed although there are some points where you can with no problem.
I had a play with GT4 the other day and it felt very dead and unresponsive after a week or so of Enthusia. It might have been that I was using the DS2 instead of the normal DFP, but I found it boring.
Last night, in Enthusia, driving a TVR Tamora, the only way to get it around the bends without things becoming overly 'exciting' was to do it just as you're supposed to: get the breaking done in a straight line first, apply a touch of power to balance the car, and then keep that throttle really steady all the way around. Any throttle adjustment or breaking and it was getting out of shape and would be beaten by slower cars. With GT4, you can steam around bends breaking/accelerating how you like, seemingly without consequences - well, as long as you break plenty early and don't understeer straight off - like Tiff Nidell seems to have at least 3 times...hmmm! I find it demoralizing when I think I've taken a bend really well, I switch on the ghost of the previous lap where I know I'd made a mess, and it hasn't made a difference. Sometimes it feels to me that GT4 operates according to rules about speed and position on the track rather than their being a real physical model. For example, if you spin through 360, as long as the wheels are reasonably straight as you come around, the car behaves like it's found a set of rails and just straightens itself up. On the other hand, I've not driven Enthusia's infamous race cars yet apart from in DR. Are they definitely rubbish?
Last night, in Enthusia, driving a TVR Tamora, the only way to get it around the bends without things becoming overly 'exciting' was to do it just as you're supposed to: get the breaking done in a straight line first, apply a touch of power to balance the car, and then keep that throttle really steady all the way around. Any throttle adjustment or breaking and it was getting out of shape and would be beaten by slower cars. With GT4, you can steam around bends breaking/accelerating how you like, seemingly without consequences - well, as long as you break plenty early and don't understeer straight off - like Tiff Nidell seems to have at least 3 times...hmmm! I find it demoralizing when I think I've taken a bend really well, I switch on the ghost of the previous lap where I know I'd made a mess, and it hasn't made a difference. Sometimes it feels to me that GT4 operates according to rules about speed and position on the track rather than their being a real physical model. For example, if you spin through 360, as long as the wheels are reasonably straight as you come around, the car behaves like it's found a set of rails and just straightens itself up. On the other hand, I've not driven Enthusia's infamous race cars yet apart from in DR. Are they definitely rubbish?
- 7,120
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
Wolfe2x7
@Wolfe: I'm not sure I agree with you on this. One of the hardest races in the RS "race car championship" is the Tsukuba one. I ask you to try it with the Audi R8 and then tell me there's too much grip.
My experience is that the car is always losing grip, be it understeering on entry or oversteering on exit (of corners). Very delicate handling is required to tame those beasts in a circuit as twisty as this one.
What I think is badly represented is what happens when you do a litle off-course. You don't lose the car, it will just decelerate and go forward into the grass.
Hun200kmh
Okay, I took the R8 for a spin around Tsukuba and got 51"226 on the third lap. I know what you mean, but it's not that simple. Virtual tires can have too much grip and the car could still spin them...just last night I was burning up some Supersoft racing tires in a 550hp Cougar in GT4. I think you're noticing a difference in the way EPR handles this wheelspin/understeer. And we all know how GT4 and EPR differ in this regard.
Who knows, maybe the 787B could make it around the 'Ring in 6'06" -- and believe me, I had plenty of trouble with oversteer and understeer before nailing that lap, especially before I adjusted the LSD (the 787B has an open diff by default in EPR
). However, I doubt that I could have done it in real life. Perhaps comparing the R-Class tires to GT4's racing tires is going too far, but Enthusia's R-Class tires lack the harsh, grip/no-grip bite that real life racing tires possess.
You're right about the grass, though, at least with racecars. You do lose control when one or two wheels run off of the track, but it takes time for the car to start spinning, and it's pretty easy to catch.
I have to say that the difference between EPR and GT4 was almost like night and day. GT4 seems to be a bit slower in terms of sensation (sp?) of speed, where else with ERP you do know how fast you are actually going. Well to me it does.
When driving with a FF car, in ERP, you do really "feel" the pull of the car when it is accelerating. However when i used a FF car in GT4, you do not really feel the "pull" of the car. For me at least, this was a pretty obvious difference.
Now, i've not drifted in real life so i cannot say anything about it (i'm 21 btw), but it does seem to be more realistic and how i would imagine drifting to be in ERP at slow speeds. Whereelse GT4 does seem to actively deter you from trying to drift in the game, therefore is psychologically saying:
"Drifting is BAD! Don't do it in the game or real life!"
FYI, i've not drifted in GT4 at all. It's too hard.
When driving with a FF car, in ERP, you do really "feel" the pull of the car when it is accelerating. However when i used a FF car in GT4, you do not really feel the "pull" of the car. For me at least, this was a pretty obvious difference.
Now, i've not drifted in real life so i cannot say anything about it (i'm 21 btw), but it does seem to be more realistic and how i would imagine drifting to be in ERP at slow speeds. Whereelse GT4 does seem to actively deter you from trying to drift in the game, therefore is psychologically saying:
"Drifting is BAD! Don't do it in the game or real life!"
FYI, i've not drifted in GT4 at all. It's too hard.
