Player limit on console mulitplayer - why is it 16?

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Daz555

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What are people thoughts on why consoles are limited to 16 players?

Now I get consoles might not be able to hit 32 due to performance constraints, but why is it 16? Why not 18 or 19 or 23? It seems like it is 16 just because that is half of 32 - the same way some console shooters are 32 player when PC gets 64. We could ask the same question of PC - why is it not 34 or 37 or some other number? Again 32 seems arbitrary.

Would the game be unplayable on PS4/Xbone with 20 players? I suspect not, so why can't we have that option?

I'd welcome peoples thoughts on how gaming came to settle on this 8/16/32/64 player count nonsense. Fortnite and PUBG seems to have broken the trend by not going straight to 128 players though!
 
Your question isn't answerable as it's been proven to contain a false assertion :S

Cheers for the biscuit.
 
I have no idea why you brought GT Sport into this other than trolling. It's a simple PC2 question and more broadly why so many online games have this 16/32/64 thing going on rather than any other number - GT Sport's 24 being relatively uncommon but not unheard of.
 
So it is, please accept my humble apologies and I shall return to you your biscuit.

It's actually an interesting question, I'm not too sure why the player caps are always multiples of 8, but I highly doubt that it's arbitrary as you suggest. Why didn't we have the N75 instead of N64?

It must just be the way networking architecture works, and of course performance (lag reduction, ping etc) but sorry for derailing your question, I'd be interested in reading an explanation too :)

Friends?
 
_ApexPredator
So it is, please accept my humble apologies and I shall return to you your biscuit.

It's actually an interesting question, I'm not too sure why the player caps are always multiples of 8, but I highly doubt that it's arbitrary as you suggest. Why didn't we have the N75 instead of N64?

It must just be the way networking architecture works, and of course performance (lag reduction, ping etc) but sorry for derailing your question, I'd be interested in reading an explanation too :)

Friends?
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Go on then, have another biscuit.

But yes, let's get to the bottom of this 8/16/32/64 player thing!
 
Daz555
Go on then, have another biscuit.

But yes, let's get to the bottom of this 8/16/32/64 player thing!
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I have no idea as to why but it does chatch my eye that this is often a nupver in the following sequence: 1;2;4;8;16;32;64;128;256;512;1024;2048;...

This is the same sequence as a binary code. Considering they're programming it doesn't seem like a coincidence.
If someone can enligthen us on why it's preferably one of these numbers please do. Or when it's importen to use one of those as moba's are 5v5 cs:go is 5v5,...
 
Simple reason SMS cheap out and only give dedicated servers to PC.

Really from what ive seen the majority of lobbies are no where near 16 so i guess dedicated servers are not needed and no match making in place to fill rooms.
 
Harry Freq
Simple reason SMS cheap out and only give dedicated servers to PC.

Really from what ive seen the majority of lobbies are no where near 16 so i guess dedicated servers are not needed and no match making in place to fill rooms.
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Majority should not be the limitation for the rest of us though. Those of us who race in leagues would welcome every single slot we can squeeze out of the game. We have many races where we lose people in qualifying due to 16 player limit. In that scenario even 17 would be better as it's one less guy who misses out on a league race.

I just want to understand why it's 16. Makes no sense unless someone can explain it. We know it's not the graphics engine because that can cope with 32 cars in single player. So it must be something else and even IF it is something else that still might not explain why it is 16 rather than say 19.
 
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32 guys racing most on wireless oh the HORROR and yes I have raced in fields of over 20+ cars it was a mess at the start like always and I doubt 16 players ever finshed
 
Daz555
Majority should not be the limitation for the rest of us though. Those of us who race in leagues would welcome every single slot we can squeeze out of the game. We have many races where we lose people in qualifying due to 16 player limit. In that scenario even 17 would be better as it's one less guy who misses out on a league race.

I just want to understand why it's 16. Makes no sense unless someone can explain it. We know it's not the graphics engine because that can cope with 32 cars in single player. So it must be something else and even IF it is something else that still might not explain why it is 16 rather than say 19.
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Netcode, without dedicated servers and adding more than 16 it will lag like crazy. Pressure should be put on SMS to make the console versions have dedicated servers like the PC version. The console versions sell more its about time the console versions were on par with PC.
 
Harry Freq
Netcode, without dedicated servers and adding more than 16 it will lag like crazy. Pressure should be put on SMS to make the console versions have dedicated servers like the PC version. The console versions sell more its about time the console versions were on par with PC.
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I agree that netcode (and impact on CPU load etc) is likely a factor but it still doesn't really answer why it is 16 though. Why is it not 15? I just don't buy the idea that it has to be 16 for console and 32 for PC and nothing in between - it's all arbitrary unless someone can provide some rationale.

Same can be said for PC - why is it 32 and not say 29 or 37? And as mentioned earlier, what it is about online gaming and this 8/16/32/64 player limit weirdness? Why do those numbers dominate? Why not player limits of 10/20/40/80 or any other numbers?
 
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_ApexPredator
It's actually an interesting question, I'm not too sure why the player caps are always multiples of 8, but I highly doubt that it's arbitrary as you suggest. Why didn't we have the N75 instead of N64?
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F1 2016 had 22 players online and F1 2017 has 20 + 2 spectators so your assumption is correct.

To answer the question, it's not higher than 16 on consoles because of some form of console restraint I'd expect. With LiveTrack, player positioning and everything else, I'd expect the size of packets would be larger than they are for F1 2017/Fortnite.

As to why it's not 13/15/19/27 or whatever like that is probably because that would just make no sense. I can't explain why though. It just wouldn't. You can reduce your lobby size to 13/15 or whatever below 16 (or 32 on PC)
 
Forgive me I don't have all the terminology on the top of my mind, but I believe the reason it is 16 players as opposed to 15 or 17 is due to computer hardware being of base 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, etc. You see this repeatedly in computers, for example Ram sizes and processor/mobo bit sizes. So it is 16 in particular because it maximizes hardware resources.
 
Interestingly, after a quick Google of the sequence 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 (no reference to computing or networking) discussion of terminating decimals cropped up.
To quote the person far smarter than myself:

" - Any fraction having a denominator that can be factored solely in terms of 2 or 5 [or both] will terminate
- Any fraction whose denominator cannot be factored solely in terms of 2, 5 [or both] will repeat
- Thus 2, 4 , 8, 16 and 32 are all powers of 2 and fractions with these denominators will terminate"

I'm still not clear exactly how that answers the question though, but clearly terminating decimals is import for computing. I would imagine you wouldn't want to give a computer a repeating decimal to calculate because you'd never get it to move on to another function :P
 
_ApexPredator
Interestingly, after a quick Google of the sequence 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 (no reference to computing or networking) discussion of terminating decimals cropped up.
To quote the person far smarter than myself:

" - Any fraction having a denominator that can be factored solely in terms of 2 or 5 [or both] will terminate
- Any fraction whose denominator cannot be factored solely in terms of 2, 5 [or both] will repeat
- Thus 2, 4 , 8, 16 and 32 are all powers of 2 and fractions with these denominators will terminate"

I'm still not clear exactly how that answers the question though, but clearly terminating decimals is import for computing. I would imagine you wouldn't want to give a computer a repeating decimal to calculate because you'd never get it to move on to another function :p
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I'd agree with that on a micro level (specific code) but don't believe it has any impact on a macro level (number of online players).

It's kind of like suggesting the number of cellphones connected to a cell network has to be a power of 2 or else it is going to crash. It's just not relevant at that level.

;)
 
As a programmer I often default to that binary number sequens. Even when choosing arbitrary numbers. The 2,4,8,16,32 and so on is the natural way for many of us. (I think 5,10,20,40 looks ugly:lol:)
 
Am I missing something? Didn't PC1 have an odd number of 55 cars on pc and 45 on console? That's not an "even" number.
 
The answer is simple.

Console cpu limitations; memory limitations, and no dedicated servers available for the console versions.

Even 16 players is too much for p2p connnection, when it is assured many will be on unstable wireless configurations (the client is not next to his router); bad configured routers; unstable connections even wired (DSL connections); etc. The only way to have good p2p experience with a number higher than 8 players, is that everybody is first wired, then that all the client ISPs are steady like a rock, that all of them know how to configure their routers properly (turn off internal router firewall, etc etc), and of course, to be not too far from each others location. All clients on optic fiber would be a nice plus for a greater good, of course.

Then last but not least important, it would come the very game netcode quality (there is exists nothing as netcode per sé, but we will refere to it as such). You have games like the old Dirt 2 and now GT Sport that uses a very old but extremely effective form of "netcode" referred to as "Prediction Netcode" technique. Most successful shooters from even the golden era (Quake 3; cod 4 and world at war, Counter Strike, etc) have been using this technique for ages.

As the perfect example in this forum, the smoothness you're observing in GT Sport online performance, is not because the PS Network no longer is the trash it's always been for online gaming. It's because it also uses this technique. Do you guys remember Dirt 2 online smoothness too (no lag whatsoever)?, same story.

Project cars 2 "netcode" however is..., well.., at least is better than pc1, but preferable on dedicated server of course.
 
fernandito
no dedicated servers available for the console versions.
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If you are talking about Pcars 2 than yes but if you are talking gaming in general than NO. Some games(not many) run dedicated servers, I believe Gran Turismo always ran dedicated servers perks of being owned by Sony
 

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