Players need to start being permanently banned.

[MatskiMonk]

It's time for Sport mode to end.

 

[NevilleNobody]

I've been pretty adamant that Ai is not this massive game changer everyone things it is, right now it's a glorified search engine and ghost writer. If it really is all that it is cracked up to be, it should sort this issue out no sweat, but it can't because it's nowhere near as powerful as we are told.

 

[RINGO2287R]

... is quite a different concept.

What happens in GT7 is more akin to griefing, and while that absolutely is against PlayStation Network's Code of Conduct it seems that they do not think you should be able to report people for it in GT7. Or at all; there isn't actually a way to submit a grief report to PSN, despite specifically referring to it as such in the COC, and only submitted content or chat/voice chat messages can be reported.

Why that should be is... a matter for them, really. And that's also your starting point for any attempt to change it. The matter is not in Polyphony Digital's hands.

I think that this issue stems from a poorly implemented penalty system which does not and has not seen any attention for a very long time. I think 90% of players will agree. The players that play this game on a regular basis are the gears of the game, without these players online in sport mode the game is nothing but a casual car game with money made from sales only. These players are the games bread and butter and there issues should be addressed. I’m not going to go into reasoning about that.

As for Sony not letting your report for griefing yes that’s not a very good practice if your going to have it as part of your code of conduct, also just getting in contact to submit and issue with them is a painful exercise that is purposefully made this way as a deterrent, pretty standard large corporate system of approach for a support system.

The issue begins with the game’s penalty system and players manipulating this system and forcibly changing the outcome. However you wish to word it, griefing or bad sportsmanship it’s form of exploitation of a system, this type of behaviour in any sport or developed system is in essence cheating. This is either resolved through penalising the person through a governing body or making a change to the system in which their exploiting. As we have discussed there is no reporting system for this, so the issue needs to be addressed by having the creators of the system being manipulated make the necessary changes to it. This is polyphony digitals issue and in their interest to address.
I can only imagine how many more players we could have that have been turned off the game because of this issue.

 

[SPDN Stefano]

There is no way that an automated penalty system will ever be perfect. Formula 1 has stewards that review every incident from multiple camera angles and they still hand out strange and inconsistent penalties. So lets just forget about an automated penalty system in a videogame ever being perfect.

It is up to us as players to behave ourselves. That also means not retaliating after every slight push. PD is not going to hire people to babysit us.

 

[RINGO2287R]

There is no way that an automated penalty system will ever be perfect. Formula 1 has stewards that review every incident from multiple camera angles and they still hand out strange and inconsistent penalties. So lets just forget about an automated penalty system in a videogame ever being perfect.

It is up to us as players to behave ourselves. That also means not retaliating after every slight push. PD is not going to hire people to babysit us.

Your correct however the issue that the current system has are well known and an adjustment can be made to them. Everything can be improved, and it’s made easier when you have sufficient data and case studies. I’m sure given the length of time this game has been out they have more than sufficient information to make an adjustment to it.

 

[watto79]

I’m sure given the length of time this game has been out they have more than sufficient information to make an adjustment to it.

Given this is the case (they've had an automated penalty system since GT Sport released in 2017), why do you think they haven't? They've made many adjustments over the years but seemed to have given up on it and was wondering why you think that is?

 

[SPDN Stefano]

To be honest I am actually quite impressed with how the penalty system works right now. A guy gave me a brake check, I hit him from behind and he crashed. I didn't get a penalty for that. Not bad for an automated system to account for situations like that. If a car rejoines the track abruptly and you hit them usually you also don't get a penalty. So I think the system works pretty well.

We can't blame PD for the small percentage of people who just start up the game to ruin other peoples races. And if you are in SR S you shouldn't encounter those people anyway.

 

[RINGO2287R]

“We can't blame PD for the small percentage of people who just start up the game to ruin other peoples races. And if you are in SR S you shouldn't encounter those people anyway.”

This isn’t about blaming PD for anything. This about holding people to account and discussing something than can be done about it wether it’s a look into the penalty system and make further adjustments or the implementation of a reporting system that people can use.

SR S rated lobby’s really doesn’t have an impact on a drivers attitude and motive lbs at the time. This was a A&A+ Dr and full S SR rated lobby. Even after being demoted to an A SR after the first few races with with this clown I was still being placed in the same lobby even after further being demoted to B SR I was again still placed in the same lobby. I understand your train of thought and processing when you said that statement however it’s just not the case.

 

[watto79]

This isn’t about blaming PD for anything. This about holding people to account and discussing something than can be done about it wether it’s a look into the penalty system and make further adjustments or the implementation of a reporting system that people can use.

We can discuss this all we like, but it's only PD (or Sony) who can do either of these things and they've shown no intent or interest in doing so.

 

[Meythia]

You certianly make a target out of yourself somehow.
Otherwise the fun would be over after the first touch, bullies only keep going on when the victim reacts a certian way.

Not saying this is the solution, far from it, but after years of no change, you shouldnt think there would be change coming.
Because

they've shown no intent or interest in doing so.

 

[RINGO2287R]

Is this not the place to discuss this type of topic. Given that no other method for contacting PD is available. This is a discussion that they need to hear and should at least be paying attention to if they are not going to supply there community with a direct channel of support and direct players to this forum, if the people on this forum don’t show solidarity and support for there communities interests on a topic that is in everyone’s best interest to make changes in as its a real issue and discussed both on the forums and on YouTube. Then players support should follow suit.

I’m sorry but at the end of the day if PD do monitor this forum and pay attention to there community and they see a divided community on any said topic that probably won’t in act any real change because they don’t see it as a widely agreed upon issue.
And will like the people that choose to say it can’t be done or they don’t care they to will choose the easy option and do nothing because the community accepts nothing.

 

[Famine]

This has now morphed from banning players - which is a PlayStation Network moderation issue - to Penalty System Bad which... we know.

PD has adjusted it several times but not recently, and it seems we're at a point where they're happy with how it behaves even if players aren't.

We think it’s broken because it doesn't take account of anything before moment of impact. You can, mostly, work with and around it if you understand that.

 

[RINGO2287R]

Someone supply me the section of code that is responsible for the penalty system and I’ll fix the dame thing myself. This is a discussion on bad players and part of that is players that manipulate the penalty system and there being no system in place to report or enforce these players behaviour. One step is to fix the penalty system or it’s to implement a system of reporting. I don’t see how either is not achievable. It comes down to how much you really care. I care iv been playing this game for 25yrs it’s been one of the most consistent elements in my life.

From what I can gather from this lengthily discussion is that (Famine) is the moderator and speaker on behalf and or has direct ties to PD, And is in a round about/political way saying nothing is going to change. And the community comments are on the same line of topic. SAD to hear this is how people are.

 

[watto79]

It comes down to how much you really care.

Maybe I've not explained myself well. I do care, but for the most part I'm able to navigate the penalty system and dirty drivers without too much hassle. My point is it doesn't matter how much any of us care. We can't change it and we certainly can't fix the code ourselves.

It comes down to how much PD care if anythings actually going to change. There are plenty of threads on this forum discussing it.

SAD to hear this is how people are.

I enjoy the game and I know I can't change the penalty system. I don't feel sad about accepting this.

 

[RINGO2287R]

SAD and disappointed. If that’s how you feel fine. But change doesn’t happen from sitting on your hands and biting your tongue. Thanks for your input.

 

[watto79]

SAD and disappointed. If that’s how you feel fine. But change doesn’t happen from sitting on your hands and biting your tongue. Thanks for your input.

You're welcome. As you pointed out this is a forum for discussion so just voicing my opinion.

Good luck on your quest.

 

[PapaLegba]

It is sad, and the problem is prevelant enough that at least in my case it was the sole cause of my leaving GT7 a month ago and never looking back. I raced everyday, participated in the gtws and manus and truthfully enjoyed it. Then over time it became obvious that cheating, bending and breaking the rules and manipulating the penalty system was the standard operating procedure for many players and fully accepted by PD- and yes, Sony too, but it ain’t their game and anybody who says PD is held back by them is full of it. Not every race I participated in of the over 500 I did in the last four months I played was a clown show, but the vast majority were. It may not have always been like this when the old heads around here were moving up the ranks, but it is now and it sucks.
So, I moved to Iracing a month ago. 75 races in and I’ve only felt the honest need to report another player once- and that protest was upheld and punishment enforced by the stewards. The system isn’t perfect and people are still people with their poor online behavior at times, but it is leagues better than the pathetic system PD presents and were all just supposed to accept. I refuse and I haven’t raced GT7 in over a month. And, thankfully, I doubt I ever will again.

 

[Famine]

(Famine) is the moderator and speaker on behalf and or has direct ties to PD

Nope. I just know how these things work (and don't).

Sony too, but it ain’t their game and anybody who says PD is held back by them is full of it.

... and I think you're misunderstanding what's been said and what's going on.

The penalty system is PD's business. Banning people from the game (the original purpose of the thread) in any way is PlayStation Network's business, as that's one of many functions (like marketing) that - as a wholly-owned first party subsidiary - is not controlled by PD. But PD can escalate disciplinary recommendations to PSN.

 

[RINGO2287R]

Exactly what I don’t want to happen. This is what puts games into obscurity. I think by now his post has highlighted a REAL need to address either a support system we’re players can submit a report of bad players abusing the system, griefing and purposeful unsportsmanlike behaviour and based on the fact the race has already concluded said player is to be either given 3 warnings before having a 30 day ban. Or just a straight up 7day ban. This might seem like a harsh punishment but this will deter people from continuing this behaviour. To say nothing and do nothing will only lead to an increase of this behaviour and more player like the one previous leaving the game altogether.

The other option is to rework the penalty system to tighten up on how penalties are given and how the game perceives certain situations. The information required for this to be achieved is available through thousands of replays of incidents.

 

[PapaLegba]

Nope. I just know how these things work (and don't).


... and I think you're misunderstanding what's been said and what's going on.

The penalty system is PD's business. Banning people from the game (the original purpose of the thread) in any way is PlayStation Network's business, as that's one of many functions (like marketing) that - as a wholly-owned first party subsidiary - is not controlled by PD. But PD can escalate disciplinary recommendations to PSN.

So PD can, but don’t. Which is even more telling. And the conversation has morphed far from just being about banning.

 

[Famine]

So PD can, but don’t.

Can but don't what?

 

[Zero2Oblivion]

be either given 3 warnings before having a 30 day ban. Or just a straight up 7day ban.

PD would never enact such penalties.

In order to understand why, you have to shift your perspective of what this game actually is. It's not a simulator.

Gran Turismo is a celebration of car culture, wrapped up in a simcade racing game that is designed to allow you to experience racing a variety of cars, on different tracks, against bots, Sophy or other people.

This game is not a dedicated sim. Despite the top players throwing thousands of hours in to Sport mode, trying to get to the A+ lobbies and enjoy the racing along the way, this game has never tried to be a simulation of what it's like to be a GT3 racing driver. If you want that, you need to be playing something like Assetto Corsa Competizione, or one of the PC racing sims.

Gran Turismo is casual, not hardcore. A lot of people that play Sport mode don't know much about racecraft, they just want to race online with others. This varied level of knowledge and skill often results in unexpected events when racing.

Take this week's Dragon Trail Group 4 race for example. I haven't raced this track in Group 4 since a couple of updates back, so the physics are different to what I remember. The brakes now require more finesse and so braking points changed. On lap 2, coming down the hill to the heavy braking point and right turn (leading towards the Chicane), I'd overshot it on lap 1 by mistake. On lap 2 I braked earlier than last time, and got rear-ended. How does that look to the person behind me? If they're unaware of my situation, it'd look like brake-checking. Should the penalty system give me a penalty for that? I already felt bad enough for the accident, if I got a 4 second penalty as well I'd feel even worse, maybe enough so to just quit and not race online again because that isn't a fun experience... And that's what PD want - for online racing to be a fun experience.

So a draconian penalty system that is heavy handed and inconsiderate of player skill ability is not something PD will ever implement. It goes against the grain of what Gran Turismo is to them.

It's not a hardcore sim that's interested in the exact regulations and rules of GT4 or GT3, or any racing leagues. It's inviting to casual and dedicated players, so it has to be accepting of different skill levels and the accidents that will happen because of it.

*I did previously mention that some World Tour drivers have contact details for PD and can report dirty drivers. I'd posit that this is because they're very experienced racers within Sport mode, and so they tend to take a more level-headed approach, considering if contact is deliberate or accidental. Tidgney is a great example of this, as he recently started a "Plebs of the week" where we can submit clips of crashes. IF he gets enough clips of the same drivers, reviews the replays and considers the driver is being intentionally dirty without provocation, he'll likely report them to PD.

 

[bongoplyr]

I have no idea if this is possible, and if it is, how it could implemented, but after say, the second egregious contact incident, the game engine causes the offending player's car to simply disappear from the race.

 

[newmedia_dev]

I have no idea if this is possible, and if it is, how it could implemented, but after say, the second egregious contact incident, the game engine causes the offending player's car to simply disappear from the race.

The problem is that separating genuine accidents in an abstract and removed context is impossible on the fly, post race stewarding is labour and time intensive. And all of these things are error prone.

You can imagine a situation of loads of racing incident reports, but then a whole lot of appeals etc so what seems like a simple thing has all these deeper resource drains.

The penalty system is rubbish and could do with a little love but I don’t think in a realistically applicable way we are going to see much different in the way that GT does its penalties.

 

[05XR8]

Well, GT Sport happened and that was the ultimate test to having some type of banning players. PD had a whole five years of information from that game and there’s been no way to police such actions of genuine dirty players.

 

[RINGO2287R]

It’s astonishing how many people take such a negative mindset. Again send me the code and I will fix this myself. As for it’s a car culture game……. I’m not even going to buy into that for this topic in the area of the game we are talking about. Honestly if that’s the thinking why have a championship and an online sport mode. Sorry that doesn’t fly for me in this regard. (Famine) please understand that as much as this original topics headline was about banning players the discussion is all one and the same. The topic wouldn’t have dived into the penalty system if there wasn’t an issue it and this was just a case of banning players. If the penalties were correctly assigned for extreme cases like the one I discussed at the beginning, not for every possible situation that a driver might deem unfair and deserved a penalty but for absolute blatant abuse of the system to gain an advantage then people wouldn’t have entered into this area of the game and possibly the topic of banning people wouldn’t have been brought up.

Again I’ll repeat myself its very clear that there is an issues regarding the penalty system and drivers abusing it. The game has no form of reporting of these situations, e.g brake checking mid corner or on a straight, running another player wide off the track. These are the three biggest areas of concern and are the three areas the game fails to address with an appropriate penalty. If the game developers aren’t going to put in a fix to this issue which is the one that caused this post’s original header. Then a reporting system needs to be put in place. And again banning players will definitely reduce the number of times this behaviour is engaged in because of the possibility of being reported and given a ban. The type of system is in place in multiple games regardless of player size and amount of reviews are required and the resources required to complete them. This is a multi billion dollar game netting PlayStation and polyphony 4.8 billion in sales revenue. The cost to implement what we’re are discussing and maintain it shouldn’t be an issue and the benefits from doing so are only net positive Because the game would retain a larger player base and not have people like the person previously in this discussion leaving the game because of this issue. I could list at least 10 benefits that would bring in 5x the amount of money needed to address this issue.

I’m done with this post iv got what I needed out of it. I’m disappointed but also enlightened for having had this discussion. And only hope now that someone at Sony or polyphony see this post and read the comments of the community. After all they say they monitor this forum so let’s see?

 

[Rangeraus]

It’s astonishing how many people take such a negative mindset. Again send me the code and I will fix this myself. As for it’s a car culture game……. I’m not even going to buy into that for this topic in the area of the game we are talking about. Honestly if that’s the thinking why have a championship and an online sport mode. Sorry that doesn’t fly for me in this regard. (Famine) please understand that as much as this original topics headline was about banning players the discussion is all one and the same. The topic wouldn’t have dived into the penalty system if there wasn’t an issue it and this was just a case of banning players. If the penalties were correctly assigned for extreme cases like the one I discussed at the beginning, not for every possible situation that a driver might deem unfair and deserved a penalty but for absolute blatant abuse of the system to gain an advantage then people wouldn’t have entered into this area of the game and possibly the topic of banning people wouldn’t have been brought up.

Again I’ll repeat myself its very clear that there is an issues regarding the penalty system and drivers abusing it. The game has no form of reporting of these situations, e.g brake checking mid corner or on a straight, running another player wide off the track. These are the three biggest areas of concern and are the three areas the game fails to address with an appropriate penalty. If the game developers aren’t going to put in a fix to this issue which is the one that caused this post’s original header. Then a reporting system needs to be put in place. And again banning players will definitely reduce the number of times this behaviour is engaged in because of the possibility of being reported and given a ban. The type of system is in place in multiple games regardless of player size and amount of reviews are required and the resources required to complete them. This is a multi billion dollar game netting PlayStation and polyphony 4.8 billion in sales revenue. The cost to implement what we’re are discussing and maintain it shouldn’t be an issue and the benefits from doing so are only net positive Because the game would retain a larger player base and not have people like the person previously in this discussion leaving the game because of this issue. I could list at least 10 benefits that would bring in 5x the amount of money needed to address this issue.

I’m done with this post iv got what I needed out of it. I’m disappointed but also enlightened for having had this discussion. And only hope now that someone at Sony or polyphony see this post and read the comments of the community. After all they say they monitor this forum so let’s see?

Have you considered joining an online GT7 racing league? There are plenty of very good ones with plenty of splits, with clear racing guidelines, where incidents are reviewed by stewards and punished accordingly.

I'm not saying that the current Sport Mode penalty system is perfect, because it isn't... but every iteration of it that I've driven with since GT Sport was released has had issues and complaints... so I don't think there will ever be a perfect fix.

 

[Lightpilgrim]

How much money will they not get if they will not ban and ensure that dirty driving is not tolerated?

If PD ban a player permanently, there's a chance they were a whale and then PD won't get their money anymore.