PlayStation 4 General DiscussionPS4

[ch3ng]

I think the PS4 won't be as expensive to develop as the PS3.

I doubt they are gonna ditch the cell processor after one generation and so much money and work went into it.

What I think it's gonna be: cell 2.0 + off the shelf NVidea card.

Cell is out. Sony didn't develop ist alone. IBM and Toshiba Developed it with Sony. IBM had the Most Impact and they Focus on power whatever now and dont work in Cell anymore or only with Low auttention.
Some Cell Sony staff work for Nintendo now.

NVIDiA is to expensive. ATI is much cheaper and they have almost equel GPU.

 

[Luminis]

Where is your source on that?

Here.

I never said that it was bad. You bought into the line that motion controls are the future when in truth it was in its infancy when it got rushed out the door.

Wrong. You said that, and I quote, ALL gamers want to have controllers in their hands. ALL gamers, which would also mean that there are no gamers left who'd want to play with Kinect. And since, as my source points out, Kinect and Kinect Adventures do sell well, so, uh, how exactly can you come to the conclusion that all gamers want to have a controller in their hand.

Again, pointing out that Kinect Adventure is a first party title and it came with the Kinect sensor.

So? I used the sales of Kinect Adventures just to underline that non-controller based games do have a market and are, indeed, important. Selling 16 million copies of Kinect is testimony to the fact that non-controller based controls open up an important argument. You can try to spin the argument around as much as you like, but that is the fact.

^This.

Kinect Adventures sold well only because people were forced to have it bundled with each Kinect sensor purchase. This part of Luminis' argument is clearly invalid, if anything else.

Which, then, leads us to a simple conclusion: Kinect sold well. So, what's the point again? All gamers want conroller based games? Who bought the Kinect bundles, then?

Oh, but, let me guess: It's up to ou guys who's a gamer now and who isn't, right?

 

[Sanji Himura]

You clearly have no understanding of a target audience. Most motion control games produced today have always been targeted to a children-aged audience, while the games that try to target older gamers, lets say 17-30, have the option to use traditional controllers. The games that target older gamers that required motion control, like The Fight: Lights Out, have traditionally not sold well.

Kinect Adventures is one game that I wish that they did not bundle with the sensor bar. Microsoft knew that selling the bar with the game would artificially inflate sales because gamers would not be required to double dip for hardware and software.

Oh, by the way, your little title doesn't hold a candle to Wii Sports. 76.16 million units sold, plenty with Wii hardware.

 

[Luminis]

You clearly have no understanding of a target audience.

Just let me ask you one thing: Why does that matter? Who cares whether the target audience for Kinect and whatever other game is the same? Well, frankly, it doesn't! The fact is that there is a market for motion controls in the gaming world, and both Sony and Nintendo are catering to that - and guess who doesn't.

Kinect Adventures is one game that I wish that they did not bundle with the sensor bar. Microsoft knew that selling the bar with the game would artificially inflate sales because gamers would not be required to double dip for hardware and software.

You mean, like with a lot of other games? Every game that was ever bundled with a console, for example?

Oh, by the way, your little title doesn't hold a candle to Wii Sports. 76.16 million units sold, plenty with Wii hardware.

First off, it's not my title, it's Microsoft's title.

Second, it just proves my point: There's a market for motion controls. Obviously, not all gamers want to play with just a controller. Uunless you were condescending enough to claim that it was up to you who's a gamer and who isn't, of course.

Sorry, but I do have the feeling that some of you are just, you know, butthurt because someone points out that Sony has been missing out on a large market that should've capittalized more on. Nintendo's Wii is basically priniting money for them and Kinect does well, too, and yet, people in here claim that motion controls aren't important. Incidentaly, these are the same people that claim that Sony will be just fine with its PS4... I mean, yeah, right...

 

[LaBounti]

Sony could have been more successful with move if they just focused on Move games people want to play. Deadmunds Quest and Sorcery are two good ideas that should have come out sooner and with full marketing. Not making a Sports Championship 2 was a bad move(no pun intended). Imagine Skyrim with move controls or Dark Souls With move controls. Thats what gamers want to play, that puts gamers into the game. Move works wonderful with Killzone 3 and golf games. Its a innovative way to play FPS that you can't get with Wii or Kinect. Bioshock Infinite could be better with Move. Sony just missed out on making it a greater success.

The weak focus on Move is what hurt it. Being only great for FPS's and golf games is not good. Everything else just can't sell it's self. Their are many fun move games that just don't get support or marketing.

Going forward lets hope it's better integrated into games for next gen.

 

[Tornado]

Again, pointing out that Kinect Adventure is a first party title and it came with the Kinect sensor.

^This.

Kinect Adventures sold well only because people were forced to have it bundled with each Kinect sensor purchase. This part of Luminis' argument is clearly invalid, if anything else.

Oh, by the way, your little title doesn't hold a candle to Wii Sports. 76.16 million units sold, plenty with Wii hardware.

I'm not entirely sure what you are arguing when you say "gamers clearly don't want motion controls" and then you bring up statistics that prove that gamers clearly do.

Could you perhaps explain?

I think the PS4 won't be as expensive to develop as the PS3.

I doubt they are gonna ditch the cell processor after one generation and so much money and work went into it.

What I think it's gonna be: cell 2.0 + off the shelf NVidea card.

CELL is dead. IBM gave up on it years ago because it turned out to be a technological dead-end. Today there are modern equivalent processors (POWER7) that can do the same thing as CELL, far more efficiently and for pretty much the same cost without being an absolute nightmare to program for

 

[Sanji Himura]

I'm not entirely sure what you are arguing when you say "gamers clearly don't want motion controls" and then you bring up statistics that prove that gamers clearly do.

Could you perhaps explain?

Okay, here is the "for Dummies" version:

Motion controls when they were first introduced for the Wii back in 2006, was targeting not the traditional gaming audience. During the E3 when they unveiled the Wii, it was either Reggie or Miyamoto that said that something along the lines of, "for those who have never picked up a controller..." That statement was intended for, what the hardcore called at the time, "casual" gamers to pick up and play the Wii because of the ease of use and low entry barrier into gaming.

Sony first tried to copy Wii-style motion controls with the SIXAXIS. The only title to make a considerable effort to utilize it, Heavenly Sword, failed to capitalize despite the media's praise. All games since Heavenly Sword, with the exception of Metal Gear Solid 4, have completely dropped SIXAXIS support.

At E3 2009, Sony came back with the Playstation Move. To be honest, it is a complete rip off of the Wiimote with one notable exception, there is a ball on top of Sony's remote that changes color. It eventually launched alongside the PS3 Slim.

The Kinect was also announced at E3 2009 and launched the following year. However, unlike Sony, Microsoft is expanding the Kinect to include a Windows 7 version.

The problem? Both target casual gamers who would like a relaxing spin at their favorite sport rather than their base. IGN put it best during the review of the Kinect device itself, "Kinect can be a tremendous amount of fun for casual players, and the creative, controller-free concept is undeniably appealing".

There is always two levels to gaming, casual and hardcore. Motion control just added another barrier to that gap.

 

[Luminis]

There is always two levels to gaming, casual and hardcore. Motion control just added another barrier to that gap.

Big deal. Motion controls, by the way, don't add to that gap. That gap is natural. You'd never get a "casual" to play games like League of Legends and most "harcore" players don't care about games like The Sims, either. Whether the games are ignored because of their nature or because of their control scheme hardly matters.

The simple fact is that motion controls have an audience, a large audience, and Nintendo and Sony are capitalizing on that. Sony failed to do so, which they shouldn't have done.

I have the nagging feeling, judging by your condescending attitude towards all things casual, that you consider yourself a "hardcore gamer" and just don't want to accept that the casual market is where a lot of money is, right now. Kinect, for example, might have limited use for someone who's into traditionall gaming, but if gamers had a bit more of an open mindset and dropped the whole idea of being "hardcore" and other being "casual", I'd say that developers could start to explore the possibilities to use motion controls in more "hardcore" games.

Okay, here is the "for Dummies" version:

Your "for Dummies" version is rather impressive. As it entirely fails to back your point up. You said that all gamers want controlers in their hands. Yet, you even say yourself that the Wii enjoys a massive success with the "casual" gamers (as does Kinect, to a certain degree). So, it's not only dumb to try and claim that motion controls don't matter or shouldn't matter to Sony, it's also highly illogical.

Just stop with the "I have to spin everything around until I can claim that Sony's doing well" thing. It's getting ridculous.

 

[Sanji Himura]

I have the nagging feeling, judging by your condescending attitude towards all things casual, that you consider yourself a "hardcore gamer" and just don't want to accept that the casual market is where a lot of money is, right now. Kinect, for example, might have limited use for someone who's into traditionall gaming, but if gamers had a bit more of an open mindset and dropped the whole idea of being "hardcore" and other being "casual", I'd say that developers could start to explore the possibilities to use motion controls in more "hardcore" games.

I'd call my self a traditionalist more than anything. To me, if you want to sit down and play a game, one shouldn't get off their *** and waive their arms around like an idiot. You sit down on a chair and play the bloody game for however long you want. You might say that I'm looking down on motion controls, and to an extent, I am. The media, publishers, and the console manufacturers themselves have created this caste system since the Wii was first announced that has really categorized players by how willing you are to be active in your games. This system is both impractical and completely unnecessary in the short term because the technology is in its infancy. I know that you don't like to hear that, but when Sony and Microsoft's answer to the Wii was rushed out the door in a little over a year since it was first announced, then the technology is either, a, works so good that hardware support needs little attention, or b, the technology itself is based on flawed principles and needs work.

Also, besides Kinect Adventures, which we clearly established was packaged with every Kinect sensor bar sold, there has been not one Kinect or Move required title that has sold well.

 

[Luminis]

You sit down on a chair and play the bloody game for however long you want.

What does that make me, then, laying on a couch and playing hardcore games?

You might say that I'm looking down on motion controls, and to an extent, I am.

The media, publishers, and the console manufacturers themselves have created this caste system since the Wii was first announced that has really categorized players by how willing you are to be active in your games.

BS. it's the people's mindset that's creating this issue. The constant need to label themselves as part of one group or another. Add to that the elitist attitude that some of the "hardcore" players have towards the casual stuff, and you've got the true explanation.

The whole "categorization" happens in most growing market; there comes a point where having one kind of product just isn't cutting it anymore. That's why we moved from a Model T to various kinds of cars, mini vans, SUVs, sportscars, and so on. It's categorization, it's deservification.

You're just looking down on those who're buying the mini vans of the gaming world now. It's just like you're claiming that every driver wants a sports car, when the reality is, it isn't.

This system is both impractical and completely unnecessary in the short term because the technology is in its infancy.

Oh, please, everything was in its infancy once.

I know that you don't like to hear that, but when Sony and Microsoft's answer to the Wii was rushed out the door in a little over a year since it was first announced, then the technology is either, a, works so good that hardware support needs little attention, or b, the technology itself is based on flawed principles and needs work.

This is just plain dumb. I agree with you, the three axis thing was ruushed by Sony, that's why it never caught on. Kinect was released in November 2010 - so, explain to me how Microsoft rushed that out of the door in a year. At least get your facts right regarding the points you are attempting to make.

Also, besides Kinect Adventures, which we clearly established was packaged with every Kinect sensor bar sold, there has been not one Kinect or Move required title that has sold well.

Kinect Sports sold 4.24 million copies. Does that mean that you could say that Uncharted 1 and 3 didn't sell well, either? Because the sold less then that. And I guess Gran Turismo 5: Prologue is a bad selling game, then, too. Oh, and God of War III managed to sell a huge 100,000 copies more than that - so I guess it's barely successful, either?

But, by all means, think of an excuse for that and a reason why it's not necessary to do well in the motion controls market. I'm thrilled to hear it.

But, you know what? Sony not getting motion control done right does by no means prove or even indicate that motion controls are necessary bad, neither as far as game design is concerned, and especially not as far as sales are concerned. There's clearly a market for them, and you'd be stupid as hell to not try and get a piece of that. Nintendo tried and won epically. Microsoft tries and is doing well-ish. Sony tried and failed. That's all there is to it.

 

[Spagetti69]

There is always two levels to gaming, casual and hardcore. Motion control just added another barrier to that gap.

What is the definition of a hardcore gamer?

 

[tankuroded]

What is the definition of a hardcore gamer?

Maybe those that were intended for the 'younger' audience?

 

[Spagetti69]

Maybe those that were intended for the 'younger' audience?

Oh I'm out then.

 

[ch3ng]

Okay, here is the "for Dummies" version:

Motion controls when they were first introduced for the Wii back in 2006, was targeting not the traditional gaming audience. During the E3 when they unveiled the Wii, it was either Reggie or Miyamoto that said that something along the lines of, "for those who have never picked up a controller..." That statement was intended for, what the hardcore called at the time, "casual" gamers to pick up and play the Wii because of the ease of use and low entry barrier into gaming.

Sony first tried to copy Wii-style motion controls with the SIXAXIS. The only title to make a considerable effort to utilize it, Heavenly Sword, failed to capitalize despite the media's praise. All games since Heavenly Sword, with the exception of Metal Gear Solid 4, have completely dropped SIXAXIS support.

At E3 2009, Sony came back with the Playstation Move. To be honest, it is a complete rip off of the Wiimote with one notable exception, there is a ball on top of Sony's remote that changes color. It eventually launched alongside the PS3 Slim.

The Kinect was also announced at E3 2009 and launched the following year. However, unlike Sony, Microsoft is expanding the Kinect to include a Windows 7 version.

The problem? Both target casual gamers who would like a relaxing spin at their favorite sport rather than their base. IGN put it best during the review of the Kinect device itself, "Kinect can be a tremendous amount of fun for casual players, and the creative, controller-free concept is undeniably appealing".

There is always two levels to gaming, casual and hardcore. Motion control just added another barrier to that gap.

And what you want to say. Money is Money and only that matters for company's.
Luminis and Tornado Tell the truth.

Do you know Killzone 3, Heavy Rain with Move or Mass Effect, Skyrim, Ghost Recon,... with Controller AND Kinect Support. I dont think the Target group are children here.

 

[marchi]

Cell is out. Sony didn't develop ist alone. IBM and Toshiba Developed it with Sony. IBM had the Most Impact and they Focus on power whatever now and dont work in Cell anymore or only with Low auttention.
Some Cell Sony staff work for Nintendo now.

NVIDiA is to expensive. ATI is much cheaper and they have almost equel GPU.

Actually the Cell is not out, it has become a supplementary hardware. You won't see Cell in the same guise as it has been in the PS3, but after doing some research, it will be utilised in some form. It was always meant to evolve to incorporate other hardware.

 

[ch3ng]

Actually the Cell is not out, it has become a supplementary hardware. You won't see Cell in the same guise as it has been in the PS3, but after doing some research, it will be utilised in some form. It was always meant to evolve to incorporate other hardware.

Cell was developed by IBM and they Focus on Power7/8 now. Toshiba dont Need a New cell.
And Sony has Financial Problems and Development the cell and with cell is expensive.

Yes cell is out.

CELL is dead. IBM gave up on it years ago because it turned out to be a technological dead-end. Today there are modern equivalent processors (POWER7) that can do the same thing as CELL, far more efficiently and for pretty much the same cost without being an absolute nightmare to program for

 

[marchi]

Cell was developed by IBM and they Focus on Power7/8 now. Toshiba dont Need a New cell.
And Sony has Financial Problems and Development the cell and with cell is expensive.

Yes cell is out.

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/363760/cell_processor_development_hasn_t_stalled_ibm_cto_says/


Yep really out. Excuse me if I take the word of a high up IBM official over Toronado and yourself. As I said, it will become supplementary hardware to future development.

 

[Caz]

Heavy rain was 100% more fun with the move controller.
I remember playing one night and my controller died, so I went back to the ds3. 5 minutes later I turned the game off.

Some games truly are better with alternative controller methods. Depends on the developer to implement it properly and not just add it as a " me too " feature.

Motion controlled games don't all require you to flail around your living room. Using HR as a reference again. Not once did I have to get off my seat during a playthrough with Move. Played some hours lounging in bed as well.
Your argument against motion controllers is purely based on your personal opinion.

Other games like flower and flow did a great job utilizing six axis. Yeah they are not hardcore games by definition, but both were very good games.

I wish shooters would add six axis functionality for lean effects. Snap shooting from behind cover, lean out to peak out from cover/ around corners is something that should return to that genre.

 

[Luminis]

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/363760/cell_processor_development_hasn_t_stalled_ibm_cto_says/


Yep really out. Excuse me if I take the word of a high up IBM official over Toronado and yourself. As I said, it will become supplementary hardware to future development.

Oh my gosh, 'news' from 2010! Those MUST be relevant now!

 

[ch3ng]

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/363760/cell_processor_development_hasn_t_stalled_ibm_cto_says/

Yep really out. Excuse me if I take the word of a high up IBM official over Toronado and yourself. As I said, it will become supplementary hardware to future development.

1. They talked about future work with manufacture with console
2. They concentrate on Power7/8
3. Cell is based on Power5
4. They Talk about using Some Cell knowledge and Tech in future technology. As a Hybrid
5. IBM Said that they can so everything in the Cell line what the Cell can do.
The power line is much easier to develop.
6. Cell isn't a Console CPU. It was also Build for Television and Server.
7. Rumours Said that Sony cancel Cell for PS4.
8. Some Sony Cell worker work for Nintendo now with IBM on a Power7.

----

9. Research on Cell would be too expensive for Sony, because IBM use almost all resources in the CPU Department for Power8. And Sony has a very Bad Financial Situation.
10. Development will get more expensive and to solve this Problem a Little Bit you need a "easy to develop" Hardware and Cell is everything, but NOT Easy to develop.


Conclution: No cell anymore, but a New CPU's which use part or knowledge of the Cell Development.
PS4 with cell can Happen, but the change is slim
-> 5%

Oh and IBM Said that they dont use cell anymore.

:::::::::::::::

Edit: A racing Game Developer about racing Games and Next Gen.

Gareth Wilson [Sumo Digital's]

" Racing games always do well when a new console comes out, and you do a new physics engine and improved graphics, but towards the end of a cycle it's always quite hard to push Racing games [...]"

"So with the Next Gen Hardware we should be able to create features with another level of immersion and quality. We're talking about simulation racers here - this game is a completely different Racing experience but even so, there's stuff we can do with this generation that we couldn't before, and with the next we can make everything that bit more awesome. Racing games need that."

Well i think GT6 will be on PS4.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Anyone else ready for the PS4 yet ???.I want to put the PS3 behind and move on with a new console.Who thinks it'll be like a gaming pc ???.

 

[Luminis]

Why would it be like a gaming PC?

But the next generation won't be launched anytime this year, and probably not until late 2013, anyways.

 

[CMvan46]

Anyone else ready for the PS4 yet ???.I want to put the PS3 behind and move on with a new console.Who thinks it'll be like a gaming pc ???.

I don't.

Will it run Photoshop? AutoCAD?

Will it have high resolution games?

Will it have massive online games or RTS games?

No probably not to all those.

 

[Antonisbob]

Anyone else ready for the PS4 yet ???.I want to put the PS3 behind and move on with a new console.Who thinks it'll be like a gaming pc ???.

Nope. I'm not willing to hand out another $600 bucks for a next-gen console.

If a PS4 does come out I'm going to wait a while anyways before I buy it.

 

[sesselpupser]

Nope. I'm not willing to hand out another $600 bucks for a next-gen console.

If a PS4 does come out I'm going to wait a while anyways before I buy it.

Yep, I'm going to wait for some genuinely unmissable games this time, like probably a few people here I bought my PS3 'in time for GT5', back in 2006 (I think?) and the bloody thing YLOD'd the very first time I actually tried to play GT5 on the day it came out, over 4 years later (might've been 3, I can't remember when the PS3 came out but mine was a launch model). In fact all it will take to make me buy a PS4 is a new Wipeout game, as in an actually new one, not just an HD remake of a PSP version. I'm not sure I'd even buy GT6 if it is to GT5 what GT5 was to GT4. Then again every odd numbered GT game has been worse than the even numbered ones around it, so who knows.

I think I'm technically known as a 'PC gamer' now anyway.

 

[marchi]

4. They Talk about using Some Cell knowledge and Tech in future technology. As a Hybrid

I'm just going to completely ignore the rest of your post because it is irrelevant to the point I made. That is pretty much what I said. Supplementary hardware....

 

[tribolik]

I don't.

Will it run Photoshop? AutoCAD?

Will it have high resolution games?

Will it have massive online games or RTS games?

No probably not to all those.

AutoCad???? are you mad??? the program alone would cost at least 6 times the price of the console... that isnt very smart thinking

 

[CrackedTrigger]

Makes an interesting read, and slightly contradicts a low powered PS4. 300fps for 1080p 3D....

http://mandetech.com/2012/01/10/sony-masaaki-tsuruta-interview/

 

[Robin]

Apparently Sony have started to give some E3 details about an invite only event saying they will show...

“the future of gameplay and innovation” and the “launch of more than 20 new gaming experiences”

Might be the next Playstation.... who knows! Also funny how they said 'experiences' not just simply games.

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

Makes an interesting read, and slightly contradicts a low powered PS4. 300fps for 1080p 3D....

http://mandetech.com/2012/01/10/sony-masaaki-tsuruta-interview/

On what game? A PS1 title? Sorry but I call BS. 300 FPS 3D is not even possible with my $2,000 PC. Not gonna happen.

Apparently Sony have started to give some E3 details about an invite only event saying they will show...

Might be the next Playstation.... who knows! Also funny how they said 'experiences' not just simply games.

I think you're just reading into that too much and interpreting it to be what you want it to.