Polyphony should Learn From Square (development)

[Earth]

Similar to Gran Turismo 5, the popular role playing game Final Fantasy XIII was endlessly delayed and finally released ages after it was first unveiled.

For comparisons, Final Fantasy XIII was released 3 1/2 years after it was first shown, and Gran Turismo 5 was released 2 1/2 years after it was first shown. Both unacceptable

Even worse, the time it took for each game to follow it's predecessor was tediously long. Final Fantasy XIII was released 3 1/2 years after XII, and Gran Turismo 5 was released nearly 6 years after Gran Turismo 4

But according to this article, Square has learned form their mistakes.

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/06/27/what-square-enix-learned-from-ffxiiis-large-scale-development/

But the question is, will Polyphony Digital?

Square, like Polyphony Digital, was highly criticized for it's release of Final Fantasy XIII. Both games were considered a massive disappointment.

Square realized one of their major errors was not taking in enough feedback from the fans on their product which they vow to change in the future.

Toriyama and his team tried to keep the game as secret as possible within the massive workforce, which led to playtesting happening "way too late in the process," he said

Doesn't that sound alot like what must have happened with Gran Turismo 5? It's like they spent 99.9% of their time creating the game but spent the last .01% play testing it.

How else can you explain the numerous bugs and graphical glitches? How else did the awful, poorly thought out leveling up system sneak through the cracks and to the public? Maybe because there wasn't proper play testing by users who can tell Polyphony Digital what they do and dont like?

Theres no way any true Gran Turismo fan would have tested GT5's leveling system and even it's choice of races and gave it all a thumbs up. This leads me to believe the whole process was rushed in the end after they spent so much time modeling cars and other things unrelated to gameplay.

Also the article speaks of Square deciding to outsource some workload. Turn 10 already does this and it helps them create their games much faster. Obviously quality control is a concern, but when it's taking 5+ years and 80 million to create a single game something HAS to change.

So things Polyphony Digital can learn from Square

• Have the game playtested alot more before release
• Listen to the criticisms of the game by fans
• Outsource some workload instead of having a undirected mass of people working endlessly without any common goal or drive

 

[GTPorsche]

It's not just PD that need to take note of this, it's every Japanese game development studio.

 

[eran0004]

So... what you're saying is that because Square had a development time of 3,5 years and PD had a development time of 6 years, they are basically the same organization and whatever Square did wrong in their development, so did PD and the same fix applies to them both.

Sorry, but I think not. The things you list for PD to improve are all based on assumptions, none based on facts. Sure, some things are plausible, like the limited testing, but it's still just guessing.

Regarding the last point I disagree completely:

Outsource some workload instead of having a undirected mass of people working endlessly without any common goal or drive

"Undirected mass of people working /.../ without any common goal"???

Where did you get that from? Please show me the organizational review of Polyphony Digital during the process of developing GT5, conducted by a professional organization development consult. Or else that's just a load of 🤬.

 

[Griffith500]

Isn't that basically how Valve do things? Well, except the "without any common goal or drive thing", naturally. And yes, I know the handbook is part marketing, part entertainment, part lure for other developers' staff...

 

[DRambo]

A guy told me the other day that PD had to bring in staff from Turn 10 to help finish GT5 because of the time it was taking. I personally think this is a load of old balls, but he believed it.

Surely drivel?

 

[Samus]

A guy told me the other day that PD had to bring in staff from Turn 10 to help finish GT5 because of the time it was taking. I personally think this is a load of old balls, but he believed it.

Surely drivel?

Of course it's a load of rubbish.

 

[G.T.Ace]

You are kidding me right? Square? FFXIII is the worst Final Fantasy since ages, suffering from cut content (so a 360 release could be forced). Also where is vs. XIII?

 

[DRambo]

Of course it's a load of rubbish.

He also told me that Forza 4 physics are better than GT5.

Surely drivel?

 

[Spagetti69]

He also told me that Forza 4 physics are better than GT5.

Surely drivel?

There may be truth in that after all. Lol.

 

[magawolaz]

Square

 

[DRambo]

There may be truth in that after all. Lol.

He also told me that Forza 4 had a Porsche dlc.

Surely drivel?



Sorry, I'm just being silly with these posts.

 

[I'm Motarded]

Of course it's a load of rubbish.

I would say so too, but.. T10 does have Japanese staff, it's not impossible PD poached or picked up some of this staff even if it was only one person. These Development teams are in a small genre working in racing games, and in every genre people have moved from company to company into similar roles because of their experience, knowledge and proven skill set. The dev teams are quite close between Europe and the USA, they all know each other and in many cases personally despite being competition, although the Japanese Devs are not that much in this circle.

Again, I'll say it's unlikely, but not impossible. Best way to know is to see their CV.

Try looking them up if you know their name http://uk.linkedin.com/static?key=country_listing

 

[amar212]

Square?

OP is saying that PD should learn from SQUARE?



Today - June 29 2012 - Square Enix is more than 6 years in development of Final Fantasy Versus XIII, with more than 100 milllion dollars already spent and with more than 300 people on the task. They delayed Versus to hell-and-back, changed everything 100 times and game is still practically vaporware - with only some concept-art and (stunning, I admit that) video shown more than 2 years ago.

Square Enix is the company that have already proclaimed their next-level engine too advanced even for Blu-Ray capacity so they can lever the grounds for potential further delays and save their executive asses from wrath of the shareholders because of the company's profit and forecast for the upcoming quarters.

Comparing to SqaureEnix, Polyphony Digital are the KINGS OF EFFICIENCY™.

OP should really, really inform himself before speaking nonsense.

Also, Earth, what do you mean by "not acceptable"? By whom?

Also, while PD produced 3 titles between GT4 and GT5 (Tourist Trophy, GTPSP, GT5rologue, with studio expanding from 70+ people in 2005 to 120+ to GT5), Square made only XIII after XII with their 300+ people FF studio staff and limitless budget.

Everything in that "interview" is made to save executives from wrath of the shareholders. That interview just buys the time and bonuses for them - with both FFV:XIII and upcoming FFnext-gen project being nothing but vaporware to outside world. Oh, and yes, not to be forgotten - they invested further zillions in patching FFXIV and re-releaing it on consoles, delaying it another 5 times in the process. We still have to see what will that bring.

Do not even speak bout SquareEnix, please.

 

[peccio]

Unlike Final Fantasy, Gran Turismo is a brand that needs investment to get a large number of license. In my opinion, the problem of poliphony resides exclusively on monetary investments by sony. Seeing how things are going, I believe that PD has released gtprologue and GT5 to finance the next game. I see GT5 as a mere commercial operation to meet the costs for a hypothetical GT6, which will not be anything other than the gt5 we have been waiting for a long time.

 

[-Cheezman-]

It's not just PD that need to take note of this, it's every Japanese game development studio.

This.

Konami, Square, Polyphony Digital; it doesn't matter, they all play by their own rules which means long development periods. At the same time though, they aren't cranking out basically the same game every year.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

This.

Konami, Square, Polyphony Digital; it doesn't matter, they all play by their own rules which means long development periods. At the same time though, they aren't cranking out basically the same game every year.

Heck, in Square's defence, every FF (before they got into the sequel-sequel business) is completely different from the last. GT5 doesn't need storyboarding or nearly as much creative work: it's reproduction, for the most part.

There have been light whisperings of PD already exploring the concept of outsourcing, but they've just been that - whisperings - and it's unlikely they'd ever comment officially on the matter.

 

[analog]

There have been light whisperings of PD already exploring the concept of outsourcing, but they've just been that - whisperings - and it's unlikely they'd ever comment officially on the matter.

Wasn't that just a rare sighting of a PD employee outside their building asking passers-by for a light?

 

[avens]

in the end every japanese developer should take a note of their western counterparts, with the only major exception of nintendo.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Square?

OP is saying that PD should learn from SQUARE?



Today - June 29 2012 - Square Enix is more than 6 years in development of Final Fantasy Versus XIII, with more than 100 milllion dollars already spent and with more than 300 people on the task. They delayed Versus to hell-and-back, changed everything 100 times and game is still practically vaporware - with only some concept-art and (stunning, I admit that) video shown more than 2 years ago.

Square Enix is the company that have already proclaimed their next-level engine too advanced even for Blu-Ray capacity so they can lever the grounds for potential further delays and save their executive asses from wrath of the shareholders because of the company's profit and forecast for the upcoming quarters.

Comparing to SqaureEnix, Polyphony Digital are the KINGS OF EFFICIENCY™.

OP should really, really inform himself before speaking nonsense.

Also, Earth, what do you mean by "not acceptable"? By whom?

Also, while PD produced 3 titles between GT4 and GT5 (Tourist Trophy, GTPSP, GT5rologue, with studio expanding from 70+ people in 2005 to 120+ to GT5), Square made only XIII after XII with their 300+ people FF studio staff and limitless budget.

Everything in that "interview" is made to save executives from wrath of the shareholders. That interview just buys the time and bonuses for them - with both FFV:XIII and upcoming FFnext-gen project being nothing but vaporware to outside world. Oh, and yes, not to be forgotten - they invested further zillions in patching FFXIV and re-releaing it on consoles, delaying it another 5 times in the process. We still have to see what will that bring.

Do not even speak bout SquareEnix, please.

PD are indeed one of the most efficient development teams in the world, they are just compared to a certain franchise which has now four times the resources. Once you ask people for games with as "little" number of this generation cars that are in GT5 on the PS3 or on PC, people seem to fail to find games that have as many with similar development years but will still continue to insult PD for having so "little" number of premium cars while still being most on the same platform.

The insulting of PD for being slow, lazy or whatever energy that some might have a preconception off should be directed at why Sony have their top first party studios at similar sizes given how successful some are compared to each other and compared to their rival platform developers. I understand Sony needs to make profits from software to offset hardware loss and something like GT5 is one of the most profitable games in the world but that it is now detrimenting their flagship Playstation franchise. More should be put back in, only a fraction is at the moment and if the same amount of investment was put back in as maybe one rival, GT franchise would in my opinion be back on top in all areas compared to other racing games.

 

[KWZX10]

Square-ENIX killed a great series and with ff XIII they CONTINUED to do what people DIDN'T wanted.
And, yeah...VS XIII LOL
Not a great example for pd, sorry.

 

[Samus]

PD are indeed one of the most efficient development teams in the world, they are just compared to a certain franchise which has now four times the resources. Once you ask people for games with as "little" number of this generation cars that are in GT5 on the PS3 or on PC, people seem to fail to find games that have as many with similar development years but will still continue to insult PD for having so "little" number of premium cars while still being most on the same platform.

What has other games got to do with PD's efficiency? Just because no other studios on PS3 are trying to do what PD are it doesn't suddenly mean PD are an efficient dev team. I could spend 5 years building a kart racing game and only include 20 karts, just because no other game has that many karts doesn't suddenly make me efficient.

PD are not an efficient dev team no matter who you compare them to or don't.

 

[ghostrider135]

Wasn't that just a rare sighting of a PD employee outside their building asking passers-by for a light?

If said employee asked me for a light I would make a deal with him, A light for a game that's as good as GT4 was, Not saying GT5 is bad just its not finished

 

[Saidur_Ali]

What has other games got to do with PD's efficiency? Just because no other studios on PS3 are trying to do what PD are it doesn't suddenly mean PD are an efficient dev team. I could spend 5 years building a kart racing game and only include 20 karts, just because no other game has that many karts doesn't suddenly make me efficient.

PD are not an efficient dev team no matter who you compare them to or don't.

There are quite a lot of studios making car games on PC and PS3. That includes many PC sims and games like TDU.

Where are they lacking in efficiency compared to others? So can you name developers who are more efficient considering there is must be a number the way you worded it. Same genre is preferable.


Happy Birthday SlipZtrEm . Sorry for being off topic .

 

[Samus]

There are quite a lot of studios making car games on PC and PS3. That includes many PC sims and games like TDU.

Yes but none of them are going out with the plan of implementing a massive number of cars like PD, that was never their intention. So you can't just say "Oh, well no other game has made 200 premium cars so PD are more efficient" because no other game is trying to build that many, they don't want that many. That doesn't automatically make PD more efficient.

Where are they lacking in efficiency compared to others? So can you name developers who are more efficient considering there is must be a number the way you worded it. Same genre is preferable.

Where are they lacking? Did you forget how long GT5 took and what it came with (or without)? Does an efficient development team spend all that time and come up with a tiny amount of offline gameplay content?

 

[StGeorge]

Looks like people are at a difference regarding the definition efficiency.

Patience is the answer, alot of views & opinions seem based upon the amount of time it took GT5 to be released, look at the wider picture people....

 

[Samus]

Looks like people are at a difference regarding the definition efficiency.

Patience is the answer, alot of views & opinions seem based upon the amount of time it took GT5 to be released, look at the wider picture people....

Which is......?

 

[DaveS1138]

PD are not an efficient dev team no matter who you compare them to or don't.

Fine....lets not compare them to anybody else.
Looking just at PD

Motor Toon GP 1994
Motor Toon GP 2 1996
Gran Turismo 1 1997
Gran Turismo 2 1999
Gran Turismo 3 2001
Gran Turismo 4 2004
Tourist Trophy 2006
Gran Turismo PSP 2009
Gran Turismo 5 2010

That's a full game release on average every 2 years....and that's not looking at other projects like the prologues or GT:HD which increases their releases considerably.

In what way are they not an efficient development team when they are putting out games so frequently?

 

[StGeorge]

Which is......?

Thats for you to decide, look at the whole aspect of GT5, not just the amount of time it took to be released & how much offline content there is

 

[Samus]

Fine....lets not compare them to anybody else.
Looking just at PD

Motor Toon GP 1994
Motor Toon GP 2 1996
Gran Turismo 1 1997
Gran Turismo 2 1999
Gran Turismo 3 2001
Gran Turismo 4 2004
Tourist Trophy 2006
Gran Turismo PSP 2009
Gran Turismo 5 2010

That's a full game release on average every 2 years....and that's not looking at other projects like the prologues or GT:HD which increases their releases considerably.

In what way are they not an efficient development team when they are putting out games so frequently?

Because since GT1 they've all been the same game, except TT. They don't go back to the start and make a brand new game each time as other developers do for other genres, they just build on the same game each time. Because of that development should be a lot quicker. Yet still many of the releases have taken far too long and have released with too little content. Just because they release a game doesn't mean they're efficient if the game isn't finished.

I also don't see how a prologue or GT:HD can be considered a different project, they're basically a WIP of the full game, part of the same development.

Thats for you to decide, look at the whole aspect of GT5, not just the amount of time it took to be released & how much offline content there is

How else do you want to judge efficiency then?

 

[StGeorge]

Because since GT1 they've all been the same game, except TT. They don't go back to the start and make a brand new game each time as other developers do for other genres, they just build on the same game each time. Because of that development should be a lot quicker. Yet still many of the releases have taken far too long and have released with too little content. Just because they release a game doesn't mean they're efficient if the game isn't finished.

I also don't see how a prologue or GT:HD can be considered a different project, they're basically a WIP of the full game, part of the same development.



How else do you want to judge efficiency then?

By looking at the whole aspects of the game not just the duration it took to develop & the amount of offline content.

You've looked at two aspects of the game and come up with the conclusion PD aren't efficient.