Pontiac: The Audi of Daytona Prototypes?

[JohnBM01]

GTPlanet, this motorsports thread is about Pontiac's rule in Grand-Am's highest class, the Rolex Sports Car Series. Ever since the Grand-American Road Racing Association (GARRA) had Daytona Prototypes rule by wiping out the many interesting classes of racing, Pontiac has seen some success away from their NASCAR days. I usually rag on Pontiac as being not really an exciting car brand ever since the demise of the Firebird/Trans-Am. Now that Pontiac-powered race cars have really put on a good job and advertising their success in their commercials, such as (indirect quote) "Pontiac: First at Mont-Tremblant." Or even (indirect quote) "Porsche and BMW, look out." In the most recent round at Daytona, Pontiac has won big in the Brumos Porsche 250's DP class. The debut of the stylish GTO.R wasn't a good one as BMW won in GT class at Daytona.

GTPlanet, how do you see Pontiac's rule in Grand-Am? Should we give them respect for their performance ever since they've been at the top of the class as their commercials imply?

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Well, the Pontiac engine has a big advantage in that it's the lightest of the V8's and has the lowest center of gravity amongst the V8's.

When you pair the weight advantages with the ease of tuning, reliability, and broad powerband of the LS series V8, you have a combination that the others really can't match.

The Lexuses - with Ganassi backing - are almost on par, but don't have the numbers. The Porsche flat six has become the baseline for the other engines to be restricted against due to its lack of displacement and lack of modability. The Infiniti is only in its first year, and thus can't really be judged. The Ford is hobbled by three years in the wholly inferior Multimatic chassis. Only now that it's found its way into the Crawford chassis has it shown speed. The BMW has potential, but not enough teams run it for proper development.

So long as the Pontiac remains inexpensive, reliable, has superior weight distribution, is in fact lighter, and has a broad usable powerband, it'll have the advantage.

Right now, it's just the Cosworth DFV of the Grand-Am series, and as long as it's run competitively in the Crawford and Riley chassis, it'll be the top dog.

Hope that the Lexus Rileys of Ganassi or the Lexus Dorans of Doran Lista find an advantage in the mean time.

 

[xXSilencerXx]

I think they deserve some props for developing something that could win.

 

[356C]

While its not my favorite racing, I still find it quite interesting. All the cars look alike like in NASCAR, thats probably the only think I personally don't like about it. However, I think that this series has the potential to attract more fans than many other road race series. I'd love to see more Daytona Prototype coverage on SPEED TV (as opposed to NASCAR, I know I'm beating a dead horse). Next, a Texas hold'em poker show, with all the DP drivers playing. Of course you can't forget about the reality tv show, where we get a behind the scenes look into the private lives of Daytona Prototype race drivers. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THEIR CLOSETS LOOKS LIKE!!!! . I'd much rather watch a show about a race drivers house than actual racing . Just think of all the spin offs that they could make too:

Cooking shows with the drivers
Race Driver travel shows
Home improvement shows with the drivers
Soap Operas with the drivers
Home Shopping with the drivers
. . .and many others

See, its a road racing series that has just as much potential as NASCAR commercially

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Yes, a Crawford

looks exactly like a Multimatic

which in turn looks exactly like a Riley

which is a carbon copy of a Picchio

which was a clone of the Doran

and we all know that the Doran is the same as the Fabcar

Wow, I almost choked on my own sarcasm.

But, in reality, try taking off your Atherton-colored glasses and realizing that IMSA - you know, the organization that brought American road racing to prominence from the late 70's to early 90's - was a creation of none other than...........

BILL FRANCE SR.

Seriously, the France family loves sports car racing, and ran IMSA during the GTP and WSC days. They now finance and operate - independent of NASCAR - the GARRA organization. Big, 'effin, deal.

Oh, and it shouldn't take much for you to find out about the drivers racing in GARRA Daytona Prototypes. Scott Pruett, Max Angelelli, Paul Newman, Elliot Forbes-Robinson, Wayne Taylor, Didier Theys, Matteo Bobbi, Hurley Haywood, Butch Leitzinger, Max Papis, Tracy Krohn, Memo Gidley, Andy Wallace, Cort Wagner, David Donohue, Darren Law, Fabrizio Gollin, Terry Borcheller, Lucas Luhr, Sascha Maasen......

You know, all of those top drawer road racer types.

I understand the typical grief about NASCAR media over-saturation, but ferchrissakes GARRA is not NASCAR. It's a top shelf road racing series, and a helluva lot more fun than two Audis beating up on two Lolas.

 

[Woolie Wool]

He said that NASCAR cars look alike. And they do. They're the same cars with different shaped grilles and decal "headlights" plastered on. The Chargers look totally ridiculous.

Opinion time: The Fabcars are the ugliest prototypes I've ever seen.

 

[xcsti]

If you ask me I'd say that the nascar formula for competition, while effective is a bit boring.

Super gt does a better job, allowing cars of completely different layout to compete. DP's aren't completely the same, but fundamentaly the cars are so restricted that they end up looking the same. Watching super gt, you'd never mix up a supra with a nsx or the mclaren (that used to run).

 

[JohnBM01]

I think a big difference between the NASCAR stock cars and Daytona Prototypes is that there are "templates" or such. You take a look at the NASCAR Dodge Charger which looks more like a Viper at the front (I'm not doing the *cough* deal. Cheesy as hell). You can somewhat make out the different DPs. If you ask me, the ones I kind of like the most are the Doran DPs. I'm only rooting for the Citgo #2 Citgo DP because of the Venezuelan queen of racing, Milka Duno.

Pontiac power won at Barber Motorsports Park this past weekend. Wasn't Max Angelli part of the winning team? Outside of Daytona Prototypes, the GTO.R is still behind. You can make your own argument out of these: A1.) "...reason for Porsche and BMW to worry?" The thing hasn't won a race in class. How can I be convinced about the GTO.R? A2.) The GTO.R recently came out. Don't expect this to be a dominator out the box.

When it comes to Pontiac's success in DP, how would you respond to someone who would ask a question like this:

"Why is it that everyone in the world complains when the Audi R8 wins all the time, but when Pontiac keeps winning races in DP, nobody complains?"

 

[VIPFREAK]

they're all so damn butt ugly... That series is pointless like last weekends ALMS race.

 

[Mulsanne]

Actually, I thought last weekend's Portland ALMS was an excellent race. Finally, three top cars fighting for the win in a close race. The Audi needed skill and luck to win. And the ALMS didn't need any debris yellows to close the field to make the racing artificially close.

BTW, calling Pontiac the Audi of Daytona Prototypes is an insult to Audi.

 

[JohnBM01]

I'm not trying to insult Audi. Just stating that as dominant as the Audi R8 is in traditional sportscar racing, Pontiac is making its own dominance in Daytona Prototypes. The premise here is "is Pontiac being its own Audi in Daytona Prototypes?" And if I have, I mean no disrespect to Audi.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

First off, every one of you ALMS elitists who think that two five year old illegal under ACO rules Audis and two fragile privateer Lolas make for the top road racing series in America can BITE ME.

Sorry guys, maybe once the LMP2 ranks get shored up a bit (although the Penske-Porsche collaboration looks like a steamroller gaining momentum, ready to crush the Lolas, Courages, Pilbeams, and Lucchinis) then you'll have a race. Until then, you have an Audi procession occasionally interrupted (like at Mid-Ohio this year) by the Dyson-Lolas.

It's an insult to the Audi that they haven't seen serious competition since 2000 when BMW shelved the V12, and that they haven't had regular competition since Caddy and Panoz pulled their cars.

Sheesh, GARRA had prototypes - and FASTER prototypes at that in the factory Crawford and Doran Dallara-Judd - than ALMS up until they realized that they'd lose a ton of teams unless they came up with a more cost-effective class.

In this cost effective class, the dominant engine is the compact, lightweight, and torquey Pontiac 5.0L V8 (GARRA took away 700cc's of displacement to level the field). The dominant chassis is the Riley, which produces more downforce than its rivals (compared to the Crawford or Doran), but at less of a drag coefficience penalty (compared to the Multimatic or Fabcar).

Also, because of the OHV layout of the Pontiac engine, it can be comfortably packaged in smaller cars AND isn't as top heavy as the DOHC Ford, BMW, or Lexus powerplants.

The Pontiac engine is good in a prototype chassis, as OHV engines often are - consider the Riley & Scott MkIII that gave Ferrari 333SP's headaches throughout the WSC wars, or the sleek Hendricks/Lola T-88's of the GTP era - and has proven the engineering superior, for now, of Daytona Prototype racing.

Who knows what will happen with Porsche readying a new engine for GARRA competition (their flat-six is currently the baseline in engine parity rule changes), Ford expanding their GARRA participation through the crate 5.0L engine (the GT's 5.0L engine) program and Roush Racing, and Lexus/Toyota pouring more money into Chip Ganassi's coffers as they ready him to move to Toyota power/cars in NASCAR.

Pontiac is on top right now, but a rules change, a good team, a good driver, or a bit of development could change that overnight.

And I'm really looking forward to the MkII variant of the Picchio DP chassis.

 

[JohnBM01]

Well, give or take engine specifications, if Pontiac developed an LMP project to power a Prototype-1 or Prototype-2 team, do you think Pontiac would be successful in the ALMS' prototype ranks as Pontiac is in Rolex Sports Cars' Daytona Prototypes?

 

[RACECAR]

Well, give or take engine specifications, if Pontiac developed an LMP project to power a Prototype-1 or Prototype-2 team, do you think Pontiac would be successful in the ALMS' prototype ranks as Pontiac is in Rolex Sports Cars' Daytona Prototypes?

as far as I can tell, no problems have really hit the engine and its compatible so maybe its possible but wouldn't say P1 or P2 just yet.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

The Pontiac engine could certainly be installed in an LMP2 or LMP1 chassis, however it's nowhere near as highly developed as most LMP1 engines.

One must remember, the Judd V8 and V10 are both holdovers from the days when F1 cars used cams. The Mugen V8 isn't too far behind. The Pontiac engine is based on a production LS1 block that's been destroked and debored down to 5.0L, and is allowed very few modifications in the internals.

Really, GARRA is trying to keep the DP's around 500hp, and the Pontiac isn't the powerhouse according to the last GARRA dyno test. The big power lump is the Lexus, but again, the weight, increased complexity, and high center of gravity of the Lexus twin cam V8 versus the lightweight, compact, and simple Pontiac pushrod V8 means the Lexus loses out.

With more engine development, I'd think the Pontiac engine could be a competitive ALMS prototype engine (after all, look at what its brother engine is doing in the Corvette: same block and cylinder head design). However, the Daytona Prototype spec Pontiac V8 might only be enough motor for a competitive LMP2.

It could be done though. After all, Doran figured out how to put a Judd V10 into a Ferrari 333SP and called it the Frudd.

 

[RACECAR]

The Pontiac engine could certainly be installed in an LMP2 or LMP1 chassis, however it's nowhere near as highly developed as most LMP1 engines.

One must remember, the Judd V8 and V10 are both holdovers from the days when F1 cars used cams. The Mugen V8 isn't too far behind. The Pontiac engine is based on a production LS1 block that's been destroked and debored down to 5.0L, and is allowed very few modifications in the internals.

Really, GARRA is trying to keep the DP's around 500hp, and the Pontiac isn't the powerhouse according to the last GARRA dyno test. The big power lump is the Lexus, but again, the weight, increased complexity, and high center of gravity of the Lexus twin cam V8 versus the lightweight, compact, and simple Pontiac pushrod V8 means the Lexus loses out.

With more engine development, I'd think the Pontiac engine could be a competitive ALMS prototype engine (after all, look at what its brother engine is doing in the Corvette: same block and cylinder head design). However, the Daytona Prototype spec Pontiac V8 might only be enough motor for a competitive LMP2.

It could be done though. After all, Doran figured out how to put a Judd V10 into a Ferrari 333SP and called it the Frudd.

strange name but it goes to show how complicated yet creative racing is.

 

[Mulsanne]

John, I know you didn't mean any disrespect to Audi. I just think it's an insult to Audi, with the effort and money they've put into making the R8 a winner, to be compared to Pontiac.

No, Pontiac could never succeed in the ALMS for the same reasons Cadillac couldn't. GM isn't willing to spend the money to beat Audi. Of course, very few manufacturers are. GM, for the most part, want to compete in series where they have an almost certain chance of winning on a regular basis and don't have to spend gobs of money to do so. Their involvement in NASCAR, Grand-Am and the IRL (When they were dominating. Notice how they're dropping out now that they've come up against real competition) are perfect examples of this.

From what I've read and heard, the Cadillac chassis was almost a match for Audi. It was the engine that wasn't up to par. (rather ironic for an American company, where engines are the focus...) GM just didn't want to spend the money to beat Audi.

Their Corvette program seems to be the only arena where they've been willing to take on competition from Viper, Ferrari and Aston Martin. So I applaud them for staying in it. Too bad the competition hasn't lasted and they've dominated. (And I say that as a Corvette fan.) I just wish they would spend a tenth of the advertising budget celebrating the Corvette. Every time one of thos hideous Pontiac-powered monstrosities wins, we see endless commercials touting that success. But Corvette wins Le Mans for the 4th time in 5 years and we see....nothing. 👎 GM



BTW, do the Grand-Am faithful really believe the France family has the best interests of sports car racing at heart?

 

[Layla's Keeper]

The Frances certainly had American road racing's best interests in mind when they created IMSA and started the Camel GT series.

 

[JohnBM01]

Sick of Pontiac commercials during your watching of Speed Channel about recent success? Well, guess what? The next one will probably say, "1-2-3 at Watkins Glen," not to mention "First Win at Watkins Glen in (?) Starts." Loathe Pontiac? If so, you'll hate them a bit more.

Having said that, good job by the Suntrust boys for finishing P1 overall and in Daytona Prototypes. As far as the GTO.R is concerned, I love the new GTO. Great job by the team for finally getting their first win since... well, it debutted at the night race in Daytona, so I don't know how many races since its introduction. Remember, though. This topic is about Pontiac in DP, not GT. But I wanted to throw in the GT effort anyways. So how about it? Pontiac wins another one.

Off-topic, I predicted there was going to be a total of five cautions, and after turning away for some time, there was indeed five cautions.

 

[RACECAR]

Sick of Pontiac commercials during your watching of Speed Channel about recent success? Well, guess what? The next one will probably say, "1-2-3 at Watkins Glen," not to mention "First Win at Watkins Glen in (?) Starts." Loathe Pontiac? If so, you'll hate them a bit more.

Having said that, good job by the Suntrust boys for finishing P1 overall and in Daytona Prototypes. As far as the GTO.R is concerned, I love the new GTO. Great job by the team for finally getting their first win since... well, it debutted at the night race in Daytona, so I don't know how many races since its introduction. Remember, though. This topic is about Pontiac in DP, not GT. But I wanted to throw in the GT effort anyways. So how about it? Pontiac wins another one.

Off-topic, I predicted there was going to be a total of five cautions, and after turning away for some time, there was indeed five cautions.

prepare to be bombarded by the commercials. Congrats to TRG and the new Pontiac GTO.R. looks like maybe its best if they stay out of nascar. its enough nascar gets too much exposure and pontiac on its own gets too much too . if they got in nascar and were sucessful there, that would be the worst thing to happen . in my opinion I find GM to be kind of cheapskates(no offense me being an automotive fan) only getting in motorsports where its easy for them to succeed and not having the guts to go against the big manufacters.I think that if your going to parade around how successful you are, do it when you accomplish something big and not something repetative. the GTO.R winning, now there is something different to cheer about.(bout D*** time!)

 

[Mulsanne]

No, I don't hate Pontiac for showing commercials touting their success. I just wish GM would spend a tenth of that budget highlighting the successes the Corvette team has had against tougher opposition (internationally, at least, having beaten Vipers, Ferraris and Aston Martins and having won four of the last five Le Mans).

And Big Bill France, who did help start IMSA, was a racing fan above all. The current regime simply cares about money. Eliminate any opposition, claim more money for yourself. Parallels with Max and Bernie across the pond. The current NASCAR and GARRA regime doesn't have the best interests of sports car racing at heart. NASCAR's in it to dilute sports car racing and GARRA and its teams finally have a place where they can win without having to deal with those big, scary Audis.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

I'll agree that the guys in charge of NASCAR are out to get as much money for themselves, their sponsors, and their teams as possible.

That's the goal (or at least should be the goal) of every professional motorsports sanctioning body. By earning more money, more racing and more quality racing can be done.

I don't understand your claim that NASCAR/GARRA dilutes road racing. The Rolex series is simply a different, less expensive, series of road racing. Claiming that allowing less moneyed teams the chance to compete in high level sports car events for overall victories is detrimental to the sport is like saying that Formula Xtreme is detrimental to AMA Superbike.

 

[RACECAR]

I'll agree that the guys in charge of NASCAR are out to get as much money for themselves, their sponsors, and their teams as possible.

That's the goal (or at least should be the goal) of every professional motorsports sanctioning body. By earning more money, more racing and more quality racing can be done.

I don't understand your claim that NASCAR/GARRA dilutes road racing. The Rolex series is simply a different, less expensive, series of road racing. Claiming that allowing less moneyed teams the chance to compete in high level sports car events for overall victories is detrimental to the sport is like saying that Formula Xtreme is detrimental to AMA Superbike.

I agree with that. with porsche and audi and all these exciting new manufacters around,I don't think road racing is going to be diluted(especially the ALMS). as for mulsanne, what makes you think the NASCAR/GARRA relationship is out to put away road racing? is it just because it was also out together by the frances? the SCCA(imsa actually) has been around longer then GARRA so they aren't going nowhere. both have new things coming over the horizon so how can one put out the other that easily.as for "big, scary Audis", I just think no one has the courage to take the fight to audi like lola has, like panoz has, Zytek,or pescarolo has and I certainly wouldn't be scared to take on them. in fact, them winning is actually helping me learn how to build something bigger and better then the rest .

 

[JohnBM01]

Racecar, I think even Cadillac tried to make an LMP to take on the Audis, but they didn't do too well. And it's a damn shame because I loved those Cadillac LMPs. Now I think Cadillac was pushing for the ACO to allow four-door cars to be able to race in GT-style racing so they can put in their ugly CTS-V to compete in GT competition.

All in all, I think this is good for Pontiac. They are going out there and racing so they can get some racing attention other than NASCAR. I think since the Daytona Prototype deal was arranged and as Pontiac started getting good, they've dominated most of Daytona Prototypes. I think not even Ford or Lexus has been up on top since Pontiac started to dominate.

You can comment on my post so far, but you can also think about this question. Someone was talking about how Pontiac has shown off their dominance in commercials, but when the Corvettes in the ALMS win in GT, they get any publicity. Do you think GM should commercialize the success of the C6R as much as they like showing off their Grand-Am success? And in terms of Grand-Am, there is still that Grand-Am/ALMS rivalry, so I think as long as both are in business, both will not stop in trying to do one better than the other. It's like the Paris Hilton/Nicole Ritchie rivalry- just around to outdo one another until death or retirement. Sorry to bring up this analogy, but it's true.

 

[Mulsanne]

Now I think Cadillac was pushing for the ACO to allow four-door cars to be able to race in GT-style racing so they can put in their ugly CTS-V to compete in GT competition.

Hey, first thing I actually agree with. That Cadillac is UGLY!!! And it's got four doors. The last time I checked, a true GT car only had two doors. I think it's a travesty that they're racing in Speed GT. Shelve the CTS-V and bring out the XLR! (Personally, I can't wait for the new 'Vette Z06 to come out and start kicking the Viper's butts.)

Someone was talking about how Pontiac has shown off their dominance in commercials, but when the Corvettes in the ALMS win in GT, they get any publicity. Do you think GM should commercialize the success of the C6R as much as they like showing off their Grand-Am success?

The only thing I can think of is that the Corvette doesn't need any publicity for GM to sell street Corvettes. That's why there's no commercials. Pontiac, on the other hand, needs to sell more cars. So touting their success on the track is GM's way of trying to get people to buy more Pontiacs.

I just wish they would have a commercial touting Corvette's fourth victory in five years at Le Mans, over such cars as Viper, Ferrari and Aston Martin.

 

[Woolie Wool]

I think the Grand-Am series should have an American Touring Car class, basically like FIA WTCC, except with bigger cars and bigger engines. A huge ad blitz could be used to distinguish ATCs from NASCAR stock cars. ATC would be open to foreign cars, so you would see Acura RLs and Toyota Avalons as well as Chrysler 300s, Ford Five Hundreds, and Chevrolet Impalas.

The Corvette's success is not being ballyhooed because the Vette can stand on its own merits. I'm sure they're blasting the airwaves with boasts of the Corvettes' domination of GT1 or GTS or whatever they call it now in Europe, where the Corvette isn't as popular.

 

[JohnBM01]

I do remember a funny commercial featuring the Corvette C5R. The deal for Chevy was that there was this race in the snow or something, when all of a sudden, a Corvette C5R zooms through these European city streets and won the race. Can't describe it too well, because it was a few years ago.

Just wanted to throw that out there, so carry on.

 

[Mulsanne]

John, I remember those commercials. If I remember correctly, the Corvette won the dog sled race and J. Gordon's NASCAR car won the street race. (IMHO, the best commercials were done by Audi during the 2000 season. Especially the one about the Mosport race that year, where they barely beat the BMW.)

That's the goal (or at least should be the goal) of every professional motorsports sanctioning body. By earning more money, more racing and more quality racing can be done.

Really? Even if it's at the expense of the series' health? So Bernie Ecclestone charging new teams $50 million to join and selling control of the series to banks who don't give a damn about racing is good because it earns them more money? I thought a sanctioning body's job was to be good stewards of the sport, not see how much they can earn for themselves. I would like to see them treat racing more like a sport and not so much a business.

I don't understand your claim that NASCAR/GARRA dilutes road racing. The Rolex series is simply a different, less expensive, series of road racing. Claiming that allowing less moneyed teams the chance to compete in high level sports car events for overall victories is detrimental to the sport is like saying that Formula Xtreme is detrimental to AMA Superbike.

If the AMA were smart, they would have two 600cc classes and two 1000cc classes, using the same rules for all classes, with one class for the factory teams and the other class for the privateers. But being smart is not something the AMA seems to be good at. But that's another discussion.

GARRA dilutes sports car racing by splitting an already tiny segment of the racing pie. It has taken away teams, sponsorship and races. And instead of making the sport better, it has dragged it down. Once-great races like the Daytona 24 and the Watkins Glen 6 Hrs. are now little more than glorified club races.

If sports car racing is ever going to break out of this mediocrity and become more popular, this alphabet soup of sanctioning bodies has to go away and we need to pull together and act as one.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

GARRA is one more bunch of letters in the alphabet soup of American road racing, this much is true.

However, it's an organization that caters to a different group of teams/interests than ALMS or SCCA.

If you actually look at the registration list in GARRA, you see that there are very VERY few teams that race that were ALMS teams. The Racer's Group (now TRG/Krohn) is still an ALMS GT team, so is Dyson (who's going full time GARRA next year).

In fact, one GARRA team has gone ALMS - Archangel Motorsports.

The rest of the teams are either new to prototype racing or were already GARRA teams. In fact, I'd say the majority of the ALMS > GARRA crossing was done by ALMS GT teams who wanted a better shot at class or overall wins.

As far as sponsorship dollars, the money that's in GARRA was brought by the teams, not the organization. Ganassi brought Target because he already had Target. BOSS Snowplows is Howard Boss's company. Suntrust is a GM affiliated company, and Wayne Taylor is a GM affiliate. Mears Motor Coach was already partnered with Michael Shank Racing, and the list goes on and on.

Are these sponsorship dollars that could've been in ALMS or already had been in ALMS? Perhaps, but they were attached to teams, and the teams made their choice to go GARRA because they liked GARRA's business model.

And that is the core of a sanctioning body. Sanctioning bodies take care of the business of racing. They have a product - racing - and have to market it, manage it, and make sure that it can grow.

You missed my point when I said that a sanctioning body's job is to make money. You believe that the sanctioning body only is out to make money for itself. Wrong answer. A good sanctioning body (like NASCAR) will go out there to make money for everyone.

NASCAR got really rich because they did a good job taking care of the business of racing and because they let the teams share in the wealth as they went along, keeping the teams happy and existing. The biggest problem in F1 is that the FIA is making exceedingly more money from F1 than the teams. The teams don't have big issues with the rules, the tracks, or the management, they have issue with their share of the TV money.

Basically, the FIA broke Big Bill France's Rule of Money "Give 'em enough money that they keep coming back for it." and that's the reason there's the GPWC on deck.

 

[Mulsanne]

TRG only entered Sebring this year, so they're hardly still an ALMS team. And it seems Tracy Krohn has finally found a place he can actually win a race, instead of being a safety hazard. It just comes down to quality vs. quantity.

It's just too bad that whatever petty differences between the two factions have led to the splitting of an already small piece of the motorsport pie. Just think what a combined series could achieve. Overfilled grids racing at places like Daytona, Sebring, Laguna Seca, Road America, Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen, Mont-Tremblant and VIR. (The only thing I covet about GARRA is those two awesome tracks: Mont-Tremblant and VIR. That and the Daytona 24 Hours. The rest you can keep.)

As far as sanctioning bodies, I guess we have two differing opinions on how they should function. I long for the days when racing was treated as a sport, not some business entity to exploit for the highest dollar (or Euro) amount. Just an idealist, I guess. I must admit, your vision is more suited to the real world, where it's all about the bottom line and to hell with tradition, sportsmanship or dignity. (How else could one explain the look of the DPs?)

But we've gone so far off-topic....